CT Why didn't Palpatine just clone Vader?

Right. I mean, were Luke's piloting skills 'inherited' as well?

I think it's also worth mentioning that Leia's "force sensitivity" had little to no impact upon the plot of ROTJ, other than as a 'trigger' to make Luke angry enough to almost kill Vader. It certainly didn't change her role as Rebel leader or have any impact on the Battle of Endor.

 

If "closeness with your force sensitive parent imbues you with his power", wouldn't that have required Anakin and Luke to actually spend some quality time together when Luke was growing up? Same thing with piloting skills, if they weren't inherited. A thought: maybe Luke's piloting skills were a product of a combination of practice on his part, and moreso, his Force sensitivity (that he didn't know he had for a long time... kind of like pod-racing kid Anakin).

 

That idea is completely inconsistent with what was depicted in the films.

Same thing. Running in a bloodline is too predictable to be truly "magical".

But it was still there, so that's irrelevant. The point is that it was guaranteed to be there based on family lineage regardless of upbringing.

 

But how relevant is a plot-point that, despite being "still there", has little impact on the overall plot beyond acting as a plot-device to motivate Luke?

Then I'll ask again: did Luke "inherit" his piloting skills from Anakin? And if 'yes', did Leia "inherit" piloting skills from Anakin as well?

 

While growing up? Not necessarily. I was more thinking off foetal development and being close to Lukes and Leias mother during that time.

The force helps with piloting, but I think Luke would be a pretty good pilot without the force too.

@ Arawn_Fenn

It isn't my fault you lack imagination. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" heavily implies that yes, it isn't about the body (and that includes DNA). Yoda even pinches Lukes biceps during that scene.

 

The Force's ability to "run in families," laid down in ROTJ, doesn't actually necessitate it being tied to genetics or microscopic organelles, etc.

The Force as already established at that point in the mythos is highly tied to the initiate/user's mindset and personality. Luke will feel the Force when he is calm, at peace. Vader was seduced by the dark side (his personality must have been susceptible to this). Etc.

There is evidence in real life that certain aspects of personalities, tendencies, etc, can be passed from one generation to the next. With a non-genetic Force, one only dependent on personality/mindset/whatever to use, what Luke and Ben might have been saying was that the constitution to be a strong Force-user was passed to Luke and Leia. The personal potential.

I can't find anything in the OT that is inconsistent with this. I don't know if GL meant to establish a direct genetic/epigenetic basis for Force-use in ROTJ, but it's not until TPM that such a thing becomes absolutely explicit.

 

OK, but Padme wasn't Force sensitive. So that just leaves the times that the unborn twins were within some close proximity to Anakin.

Regarding piloting, yes, I think Luke would be a good pilot without the Force too... as I said, part of the equation for him was practice. But just like Anakin and his pod-racing, Luke had this innate ability... a natural gift for piloting that was no doubt enhanced greatly by his Force sensitivity.

 

If Luke would be a good pilot without the Force, presumably partially because Anakin's and his skills come from heritable traits like good hand-eye coordination, etc, then why couldn't Force-sensitivity be analogous, except relating to traits like personality?

(I'm talking pre-midichlorian explanation.)

 

In other words, how is a plot point in ROTJ relevant to the assertion that the plot point was first seen in TPM?

"Impact on the overall plot" is not the point. Moving the goalposts ultimately gets you nothing.

Already answered ( but I was talking about Force ability, which is specifically said to run in his family ).

It isn't my fault that you ignore "you do not yet realize your importance" from the same film, that you act as if Luke is the only spirited person in the galaxy, or that you lack the capacity to see that luminous beings and genetically determined Force potential are not mutually exclusive.

Running in families, regardless of upbringing/nurture, means tied to genetics. They are one and the same.

If "mindset and personality" were the only determining factors, the concept that Force ability runs in the Skywalker line would become totally meaningless and would for all intents and purposes be thrown out. Leia is not said to have Force ability because of "mindset and personality", she is said to have Force ability by virtue of being related to Luke ( and she doesn't have the same personality anyway ). In fact, the mindset-oriented traits you suggest as a prerequisite for light side use have their exact opposite in those associated with darksiders. So what does that tell you? Can you use the Force if you either have a light side mindset or a dark side mindset, which would seem to add up to a very large group of candidates, or is mindset not the prerequisite after all?

Assuming this is true, that represents evidence that these things are being passed genetically. ( If not, it is not particularly interesting "evidence", being nothing more than the role of parental influence, and doesn't apply to the situation of Luke and Leia ).

That's the whole point - Force-sensitivity is a genetically inherited trait.

 

In my imagined model, personality as propensity for strength as a Force-user would have to do mostly with the patience, control, etc, necessary to become a Jedi. The dark path is easy and fast, pretty much anyone could do it.

They don't, but Leia is strong, independent, persistent... the piloting thing with Luke seems implied (to me) to be related to Father Skywalker, and it seems/ed that Leia's traits could be tied to Mother Skywalker as well?

They're similar, but one is direct, one is indirect:

Force ability = genetically determined

vs.

Force ability = related to personality traits, which can be partially genetically determined.

Studies of identical twins separated at birth show there must be some kind of heritability to personality traits. They don't end up exactly the same, but often they end up with far more points of similarity than you'd expect from chance.

 

Force ability and genetics may be correlated, but there's a difference between correlation and causation. Just yesterday my tutor used an example to explain this difference.

The birth rate of storks in germany correlated strongly with that of the human birth rate in the same timeperiod (a few decades). They are correlated. But that doesn't mean that one event directly caused the other.
It is quite possible, however, that yet undetermined factors influenced both the birth of storks and of humans.

 

One explanation was that people in Denmark rather than Germany had a habit of helping storks build nests on top of houses by putting up supports, which were usually disused baby carriage wheels. More births = more baby carriages = more broken baby carriages = more wheels available for stork nest supports = more stork nests in the area = more storks...

 

"That's the whole point - Force-sensitivity is a genetically inherited trait."

From the movies, it really CAN'T be.

Remember, exceptional Force sensitive children are found and taken away from their parents at a young age for training. If it were genetic, those parents would already be living at the Jedi Temple. (and since marriage among Jedi is only rarely allowed, that would mean most of the padawans are little b*st*rds, heh)

My feeling is, the Force itself chooses and determines who gets what amount of midiclorians.
The Force chose Anakin, Luke and Leia (and the rest of the Jedi) to have the midiclorians they have. Because they're related, just maybe a rare coincidence.

So, while its possible the Force could choose to give a clone an exceptional amount, its highly unlikely.

 

Not necessarily. First, parental consent is required, so the Jedi don't just snatch every Force-sensitive they can find. Thus, the parents could easily have been withheld. Also, it's by no means guaranteed that the Jedi would have access to every potentially Force-sensitive child. For example, someone born outside the Republic would have escaped their notice, and may have moved to a Republic world later in life. But the main point has to do with the nature of genetics. It's entirely possible that two non-sensitives could produce a child with Jedi potential due to the "recessive gene" concept.

The Jedi candidate selection process supports the genetic basis of Force potential rather than undermining it. This is not especially surprising given that the midichlorians were introduced in the same film which first introduced the concept of induction of Force-sensitive children into the order. Thus these things have always gone hand in hand.

That's not how the situation is portrayed in ROTJ. Leia is known to be strong in the Force as a result of being related to Luke. As Luke describes the situation, it's not dependent on coincidence. The same is arguably true for Luke's "importance" as cited by Vader in TESB; as seen in ROTS, it is known that he will be strong in the Force and thus interest in him is not guesswork. The importance placed on Luke and Leia falls apart if belief in their future potential is reduced to desperate gambling on amazing coincidence.

 

Short answer to the original post: Because he probably knew that Luke was his next apprentice and would be better than any clone.

 

Here's a thought. Even if it were possible for Palpy to make a perfect clone of Vader, wouldn't there be a risk that new Vader wouldn't willingly follow him? It's a nature/nurture problem - Vader falls to the dark side and becomes Palpatine's lapdog in part because of the difficulties of his early life. Someone with the same genes but different life experiences wouldn't necessarily make the same choices. A clone of Vader might grow to become the Jedi Anakin was meant to be, someone who would oppose and threaten the Emperor.

 

Palpatine would not let the clone fall into the hands of light side types and would presumably give it the "Maul treatment", with the intent to create something like the "Dark Apprentice" of TFU 2. It could always rebel, but darksiders do that.

 

The clone would be an "it"? Well, that would definitely render it angry enough to be a dark sider.

 

Plus OT Palpatine didn't think about niggling details like that.

Plan for Luke's conversion: "HEY, MORE POWAAAR!! KILL HIM BECAUSE I SAID SO!"