Lit Why didn't Palpatine punished Vader for the Death Star explosion?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BedlamSpirit, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I never bought into the punishment. Palaptine is not stupid. Vader went out to do battle while Tarkin got blowed up. And though they are master and servant they are also partners. The idea that Vader gets a whoopin' for what was not hit fault makes Palaptine seem stupid and childish.
  2. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Um...it is Vader's fault. He didn't sense the Falcon coming up, he wasn't able to maneuver his fighter to avoid getting hit by his wingmate, and he didn't finish Luke when he had the chance. Tarkin is at fault for not deploying all the Death Star's fighters, but Vader failed to kill all the Rebel pilots and failed to sense Han's arrival.

    Vader did fail and Palpatine would have punished him very harshly for his failure.
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  3. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Is everyone forgetting that Tarkin was in charge of the Death Star? Vader was just there to make sure he didn't try to turn it on the Emperor. Tarkin's punishment for failure was clearly death.
  4. Jedifirefly5 Jedi Master

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    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
  5. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    May 25, 2000
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    And Vader failed to choke the ever-loving **** out of him when he failed to commit the full resources of the Death Star to repelling the attack.
  6. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Failed to ensure the Death Star came out of hyperspace on the right side of the gas giant.
  7. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    That might actually be harder to do then it sounds, especially given the size an slowness of the Death Star.
  8. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Execute the architect then! Followed by the builders, then the cost-cutting project manager who really thought the Dark Lords gave a toss about the budget!
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  9. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Ah one was already dead, another got himself killed several times in fact and the rest seem to have had a much worse fate... they are stuck in the Maw with Daala [IMG]
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  10. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    This. It's not Vader's fault, his doing, his negligence, nothing. Hell, he killed Kenobi,cam eup with the idea of tracking the Falcon to Yavin, went out to battle the enemy ship to ship, it's not his failure.
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yes, Tarkin was stupid.


    However, you have to be both clumsy and stupid before Vader kills you.
  12. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Yes that's pretty funny that they jumped out of hyperspace behind planet. Wouldn't it have been faster to jump out and back into the same spot rather than waiting like an hour on sublight engines? I remember a piece of EU where Anakin does a short-distance hyperspace jump to get into attack position.
  13. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    Yeah but he uses a fighter for it, not a battle moon, also they would have to actually turn around (to leave the gravity pull), jump back out, then hop around the system and then come back and then have to again fly into weapon range. Them just circling the gas giant properly really is faster.
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  14. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I thought that the Mara example was ridiculous, because why would Palpatine punish Vader but not her?

    Imo for Darth Sidious in the grand scheme of things, it's no big deal. It being the loss of the Death Star, and in fact the Rebellion itself. The Jedi are gone, and he doesn't know about Yoda. They build another death star pretty quickly. That said, I still think he would torture Vader since he's a Sith Lord and torturing his apprentice just because is part of the job description.
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  15. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Palpatine/Sidious would punish Vader for failing to protect the Death Star. Whether it was simply as mentioned before failure to sense Han and move out of the way or destroying all the fighters that posed a threat.

    But since the release of AotC why would the Emperor remove an already cybernetic hand that was part of a cybernetic forearm? Besides organic flesh/things are connected to the Force or metal/machines.

    It makes more sense to me to torture Vader. I read somewhere that Vader was given a narcotic through his suit which in battle could allow him to take more hits or injuries could whip him into a frenzy and he was addicted to it. So cut him off from it or if he is on pain killers cut those off.

    I'd be begging for mercy if I was in horrible physical pain and addicts suffer without their fix.


    Sent from my PADD using Tapatalk

    "The Starman and Moon Goddess." Han Solo - Dark Angel
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  16. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I always found the idea that Vader's suit pumped him full of Sith drugs kinda dumb. Turns Vader into a Sith version of Bane.
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  17. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4

    And the Jedi already can take a sever beating before they can't do it anymore. I would think that Vader being a Sith: fueled by the Dark Side anger, hatred and rage could take an even worse beating.

    I remember hearing/reading somewhere that us as Humans can survive a lot as long as we have the Will to Survive. Sometimes it's fueled by revenge, love or you just refuse to die.
  18. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I keep trying out the idea of Palpatine punishing Vader and I'm having a hard time with it. Punishing Vader would be like poking Frankenstein's monster with a stick, just a bad idea. In The Creation of Monsters and Jedi vs Sith Palpatine seems to realize this, did he realize it before ROTJ? Would make him look extra foolish in ROTJ if he did.

    The problem is, how exactly do you punish Vader? Does Palpatine have anything he can hold over Vader? Does Vader have anything that can be taken away? His life is so pathetic, he doesn't have any family or friends that can be threatened, he doesn't really have much to live for.

    Can Palpatine even threaten Vader with death? Is he really going to kill his apprentice in anything less than self defense? I don't see it.

    Any punishment that makes Vader think his survival is in question is probably a bad idea. So does that throw out Force lightning? Vader's short term dependency on his suit seems questionable. One idea might be to put Vader in some sort of extended fish out of water session where he can't breathe (breathing seems particularly meaningful), almost like water boarding. But does the feeling of suffocation provoke Vader into fighting back?

    Can Vader even feel physical pain? I'm sure some sources say so, but should he? He doesn't have much flesh left and I'd imagine most of his remaining nerves were destroyed when he was burned. Does his cybernetics allow him to sense pain? Is inflicting pain even a good idea? Might just get Vader juiced up enough to fight back and even kill Palpatine.

    Something less dangerous seems like a smarter choice. As mentioned, cutting off Vader's limbs is just silly.

    A demotion, as mentioned by Iron_lord? Besides being a trivial slap on the wrist, I just don't see that working, at least not for long, I don't see Vader suffering it. Sounds like a bad idea that would just result in a loss of assets. When it's realized, by either Vader or Imperial personnel, that Palpatine's punishment didn't really stick, Palpatine loses respect.

    Public embarrassment? Maybe, but who's going to laugh at Vader? Any respect Vader lost would be re-gained with violence, meaning a loss of assets and you're back where you started, with the punishment not sticking. Palpatine loses respect.

    I suppose Palpatine could inflict some sort of psychological torture on Vader, play mind games with him, but if it's too subtle, Vader might not even recognize it as punishment, if it's too overt (Ha, remember when you killed Padme?) Vader might go Chosen One on Palpatine.

    The one thing I can see working is completely stripping Vader of his social status and basically turning him into his own personal slave. Have him perform the most menial tasks, like fetching food, answering calls, delivering messages, doing household chores like cleaning Palpatine's robes. Would that be too far? Would Vader go for it? After some time, give Vader a "promotion" back to Sith initiate, basically turn him into Darth Maul by forcing him to go around doing menial enforcer work without the support of the Imperial military. That should humiliate Vader (he's probably past enjoying assigned tasks like this) and force him to earn his privileges back. Palpatine probably shouldn't actually call Vader his slave, though. Palpatine loses a bit of utility with this punishment, but it's not at all significant.

    Maybe Palpatine can threaten to banish Vader from the Empire. Maybe that would cow Vader, he probably wouldn't like being cast out and alone. But what if Vader doesn't buy it? Palpatine either has to go through with it or lose credibility. Does Palpatine really want to just release his apprentice? What does he have to gain? Plus there's a chance Vader makes himself Emperor in the Unknown Regions and comes back with his own military assets to challenge Palpatine. Probably better to keep Vader close where he can keep an eye on him.

    Vader just seems like some out of control teenager who might be able to beat up his dad. How do you punish someone who can challenge you physically, doesn't have anything to live for and simply won't allow himself to be punished? What is Palpatine going to do, take away Vader's toys? See what I'm getting at?

    It's hard for me to really wrap my head around it, but then again my thought process is nowhere close to a Sith's way of thinking. The fear of reprisal, the challenge of cowing Vader would probably get Palpatine off. I can't say I'm an expert in torture techniques, while Palpatine is a master sadist, I'm sure he could come up with something better than anything I can think of.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Nov 23, 2013
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That's what I see him doing in In the Shadow of Yavin- taking the Devastator away from him, giving it to someone else- and giving Vader jobs that he will see himself as vastly overqualified for- like going to Endor to check up on the DS2.
  20. Jedifirefly5 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    Actually, that's stupid too, Vader's presence seems to be the death knell of the death stars!
  21. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    You punish Vader by putting artwork of Padme up in the Imperial palace.
    [IMG]
  22. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    While I think what Iron_lord suggested is on the right track , I was thinking about taking Vader completely away from the Imperial military and maybe even civilized Imperial society altogether. On the Death Star II Vader gets a parade welcome, he can intimidate Jerjerrod, etc. That's too much privilege.

    Send Vader, alone in a shuttle, modified transport or one of his prototype starfighters, to track down every last person involved with stealing the Death Star plans. That would be a horrible, Sisyphean punishment.

    Maybe have Vader wipe out some petty pirates, or track down some politician on the lam. Basically have him do some of Mara's Emperor's Hand busy work.

    Want to really drive Vader up the wall after ANH? Forbid any involvement with Luke Skywalker. To sit on the sidelines, like in ROTS, while someone else, like Mara Jade, tracks down Luke would drive Vader insane.

    I know some of that actually happened, like Mara tracking Luke to Tatooine. And of course, Vader cannot be forbidden from tracking down Luke, that would contradict ESB, but I'm just theorizing here.

    I'm not just thinking about punishing Vader after ANH, I'm thinking about how to punish Vader at all, at any time between the end of ROTS and the end of ROTJ. I'm having a hard time coming up with anything good that also works with IU continuity.
  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Vader is forbidden from tracking Luke down in Shadows of the Empire besides having an outstanding bounty on him.

    Edit: I suppose the presumption is this continues into ROTJ since he's busy twiddling his thumbs on the Death Star.

    But I imagine you can't really punish Vader. Being Darth Vader is punishment. Palpatine is Watto, and Vader is little Annie.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Nov 23, 2013
  24. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    For reals? I've read SotE more than once and I can't really recall the specific details. As I was typing that comment I was thinking "this stuff has probably happened".

    Unfortunately SotE was written way before ROTS, before we saw Anakin sitting in the Council Chambers as Palpatine's fate (and therefore Padme's) was potentially in someone else's hands.
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    "For now, the Emperor did not want him to hunt for Luke Skywalker, at least not personally."

    I think it's playing off of the fact that Vader is clearly stamping his feet over being sent to DS2 in ROTJ, and once Palpatine shows up he wants to immediately find Luke and Palps is like "cool it bro."

    Edit: But you elaborate on your point, the lack of control is something Anakin chafes under, and it's something he lives with perpetually since he got in the suit. He can't even control his breathing.

    This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker. Forever . . .
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Nov 23, 2013
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