Why didn't Qui-Gon just TAKE Shmi?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 10, 2013.

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  1. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I got the impression she already knew before Anakin interrupted her

    "must be difficult having sworn your life to the Jedi, not being able to visit the places you like do the things you like"
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think that necessarily means Padmé knew about the "no attachment" rule. But she knows that the Jedi are servants of the Republic and thus they dedicate their time and energy to its well-being. That means that Anakin has to go on missions and is bound to their rules.

    But I don't think it's ever indicated that she thought Anakin wouldn't be allowed contact with his mother.

    And even if he wasn't, that doesn't change the fact that she would have believed that the Jedi would see to Shmi's well-being.
  3. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4

    1) They don't have the jurisdiction to free slaves on planets that don't exist to the Republic.
    2) Nobody besides Padme is even aware of Anakin's situation with his mother.
    3) Padme had to continue her responsibilities as Queen of Naboo to watch over her people especially after the events of TPM. As Spock would say, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one".
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  4. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I can accept that the Naboo or Padme might let this matter drop if she thought the Jedi would take care of it. Even though she had no problem with defying their orders and going to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan but lets leave that.

    My problem is, why would the Jedi say this?
    The only reason that makes sense is that they already had plans to free Shmi and maybe talk to her and inform her that she was to have no further contact with Anakin or some such.
    If not, then the Jedi know about Shmi's plight but are planning to leave Shmi in slavery and on top of that, they take steps to ensure that no one else frees her. That goes beyond being uncaring, it is rather mean. The Jedi are saying "Anakins mother is a slave and she must remain a slave so we'll make sure no one frees her."

    If they had planned to free Shmi but Clieg beat them to it, then why wouldn't they mention it to Anakin?
    If they weren't going to let Anakin know his mother had been freed then why bother freeing her?
    The main reason TO free her is that it would set Anakins mind at ease. Freeing her but NOT telling Anakin seems a waste of effort and Anakin would still worry about her. No, this makes no sense.

    Either the Jedi could see and understand that Anakin was worried about his slave mother and they decided to free her in order to remove that worry. But then not telling him is stupid.
    Or the Jedi don't care about Shmi and tell Anakin to forget her and sever his attachments to her. But if so then why bother to free her?
    And why bother telling other people NOT to free her?

    I agree with you that the Jedi probably had little understanding of the love between parent and child and since none of them ever knew their parents they can't really understand what Anakin is going through.
    But I would imagine that young Anakin would have asked Obi-Wan about Shmi and if they could do something to help her. I don't know, it seems a bit cruel for Obi-Wan to tell Anakin that they will not help her and see the pain in Anakins face while he knows that Shmi is free.
    Esp in AotC when he sees that the approach clearly isn't working, it has been ten years and Anakin is still worried about his mother. If he knew she was safe then, to me, it is a bit idiotic not to tell him.
    Also, I would think that Padme would have some comments about Shmi's situation in AotC if she had been told by the Jedi to not get involved.

    Lastly, would this be standard practice by the Jedi? I doubt it since Anakin was such an exception. No other Jedi in a long time had been taken in at that age and also that Anakin knew his mother and had an attachment to her. So this wouldn't be something that they had done before and I think the Jedi would instead fall back on their standard dogma, tell Anakin to forget his mother and they would not bother with her or bother to tell Padme NOT to free Shmi.

    No, to me, this is a simple oversight by the writer. He needed Shmi to remain on Tatooine and so she was left in slavery. But I think he forgot that several characters had both the means and the motive to free Shmi. And as I said before, very little in AotC would change.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Jun 16, 2013
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Well, I can imagine that Padmé would be more willing to let the Jedi handle Shmi because she (unlike Obi-Wan) wasn't in imminent danger. That, and Qui-Gon had just died protecting her planet. So if the Jedi requested that she let them handle Shmi's situation, I would imagine that Padmé would oblige them out of gratitude. Also, Naboo had just been invaded. Even if you don't think the damage was particularly bad (although I do personally given that Nute Gunray said people were starving and the Gungans were driven from their homes), Padmé's still going to have a ton of work to do with the criminal proceedings as she was a key player. Not to mention all her governing duties. When Obi-Wan was captured, Padmé was hiding out and had left her duties to Jar Jar (ill-advised as that was in hindsight :p).

    As for why the Jedi would say this, I don't think the only reason they would do so is because they had plans to free her (although this might be the case). Given that Shmi is Anakin's mother, that Anakin is possibly the Chosen One, and that the Jedi want to break him of his attachments, I do think the Jedi are more likely to see Shmi as being of interest to them. They want to know what she'll be doing in the future.

    I don't think they were planning on preventing her from being freed (the film doesn't really bear that out anyway since she was freed).

    I wouldn't say that the Jedi not telling Anakin that Cliegg freed her is stupidity on their parts -- it's ignorance. They were trying to break him of his attachments and I think this is reflected, in a way, when Obi-Wan merely responds that "dreams pass in time" to Anakin's concerns about his mother. They don't know how deeply it cuts Anakin not to have contact with his mother and, perhaps, they believed it would be less cruel to do it this way than to dangle her in front of him when he's no longer allowed to be attached. You can say it's misguided, and I would certainly agree with you there if you did.

    When Anakin asked about Shmi, I imagine Obi-Wan would have told him that she's fine and that there was no need to worry. Why? Because Anakin isn't supposed to be asking about her. He should be learning to let go of her -- to get on with his life without her. I do think, in a sense, it's a cruel thing to do. But I don't think Obi-Wan is doing it maliciously. I think he's trying to help Anakin -- to teach him that his life is now part of the Order and he has to let go of his past.

    If you notice, in AOTC, after Obi-Wan says dreams pass in time, Anakin quickly lets the issue drop and mentions that he'd much rather dream about Padmé. He knows that he's not going to get anywhere talking about his mother.

    As to Padmé, I don't really know why in AOTC she would have anything to say. If she hasn't been in contact with Shmi since TPM, she doesn't know much more than Anakin does.

    You're right that the practice isn't standard, but I think that the Jedi would look into Shmi's situation, if only because her presence could impede Anakin's training and as thanks for helping with the mission. If Padmé made an inquiry, and I imagine she might, they would probably tell her something along those lines.

    One thing I've always noted as well is that Shmi herself never tried to get into contact with Anakin. Now, she certainly could have been too poor to visit him, but she apparently never sent him a letter or called/commed him either. Being on Tatooine, of course, means that it might be more difficult to achieve since it's outside the Republic, but I think it's likely that Shmi was told or knew that she was not allowed to contact her son because it might impede his training. Those are just my thoughts, anyway.
  6. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    The Jedi are supposed to have no attachments for very good reasons, like this one. Anakin was still a young child at the time, they just assumed he would get over the connection to his mother. The only reason Qui-Gon freed Anakin is because he believed he was the chosen one, so why would they go out of there way to free Shmi who's of no importance to the Jedi whatsoever.
  7. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I think it's worth noting that Watto was never cruel to Shmi, as far as we know. He may have been a slave owner and Anakin may have despised him, but I think he knew that his mother would be safe and well cared for in his custody.
    The only danger that we've ever seen Watto expose his slaves to is pod racing - and that's just because Anakin happened to have a knack for it.
    Shmi had no such gifts.





    - Have the protocol droid's mind wiped.
    - With pleasure.

    /LM
  8. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Then again, there's Anakin's comment that Watto wouldn't have lasted long if Anakin hadn't been so good at fixing things. Watto's business do seem to have deteriorated when they meet again in AOTC. Without Anakin around to help, Watto ended up having to sell Shmi, thereby possibly put her in danger.
    On the other hand, if Shmi HAD been in danger during those ten years, Anakin would likely have sensed that and I think that he was somehow aware of that fact.





    - You must not go!
    - I'm sorry, I don't have a choice.

    /LM
  9. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Qui-Gon doesn't "just take" Shmi because, while he is an outside the box Jedi in some respects, he's not a complete rogue operating primarily on his own terms. The slave implant, the ramifications of stepping too far into gangster business, and the fact that the primary mission of dealing with the Naboo situation was still very much in need of being resolved is certainly sufficient reasoning for me why Qui-Gon didn't take further immediate action to free Shmi once his initial query was rebuked. And based on the wonderful sense of platonic chemistry that shines through the rapport between Qui-Gon and Shmi (finally, two adults act like actual adults in Star Wars!), I can only assume that Qui-Gon wouldn't have forgotten about Shmi's plight had he not gone through the inconvenient road block that is death. As for why Padme and Obi-Wan didn't return to save her, well, from where I'm standing it's not as if those two characters were meant to be portrayed as entirely selfless and pure. The PT is a narrative dealing with a great societal decline, and thus presents a world where even the heroes can be afflicted with a lack of compassion and emotional balance.
  10. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    I think this sums it up easily. Anakin was The Chosen One, he was destined to be trained as a Jedi. Also the whole no attachment thing helps move his story along. I personally think instead of forbidding attachments, the Jedi should have taught others to learn let go of attachments. Something I hope is fixed if there is to be a Jedi Order in episode VII. (I'm not ageist that being in the PT though, it helps move the story) As you said, if Qui Gon was to free Shmi, the Jedi would probably disapproved because of the attachment issue and her lack of the force.
  11. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Quick comment, sorry that I missed it earlier.

    I still have difficulty understanding the Jedi's reasoning here.
    They are aware that Anakin is worried about his mother's safety, understandable since she is a slave. So they decide to free and thus put his mind at ease. But that sort of requires them to actually TELL Anakin that his mother is free. Otherwise Anakin would still keep worrying.

    Ex. take person A and he has a close friend or relative that is very worried about his or her dog that has run off. Person A knows where the dog is, at his place, but doesn't mention that to his friend/relative. Does this make much sense to you? Unless person A enjoys to be cruel I can't see why he would act this way and I would imagine the friend/relative would get rather angry once they learn the truth.
    Or person A again, with his friend, and the friend is bitten by a snake but he/she doesn't see what kind of snake it is. Person A does see and see that it was a non-venomous snake. But again he says nothing all the while the friend/relative is screaming "Oh my God, I've bitten, I could be dying, help, help!" Again does this make sense? Sure the friend won't die but why not tell them and put their mind at ease?

    No, if the Jedi can see that Anakin is worried about his mother and they decide to free her then they have no reason not to tell him. Unless they lack some serious empathy or understanding of emotions.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I don't think that's it at all. I don't think we are meant to question Padme's ethics. I think this is just a failure in writing. It's characters doing illogical things. Padme is meant to be one of the heroes in the traditional sense, she is supposed to be virtuous.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 23, 2013
  13. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Sorry. I don't think I was very clear before. I'm not saying that the Jedi are looking into Shmi's situation to keep Anakin from worrying. I think they would look into Shmi's situation to make sure she didn't try to get into contact with her son. They would want to make sure that she had a comfortable life after helping them, but they don't want her in contact with her son.

    I think the evidence of this is in the fact that Anakin doesn't know that Shmi has been freed and taken in by the Larses. Because surely, if she could, Shmi would have tried to call him or write to him? AOTC gives us every indication that she's been there for a while and is a beloved member of the family, and yet, she doesn't ever send Anakin a letter letting him know that she is free. Of course, she's quite poor and Tatooine is isolated so maybe it just didn't get through, but I think it's also likely that the Jedi didn't want Anakin to be in contact with his mother.

    I think you have to consider that the Jedi don't really understand the concept of family or attachment -- or, at least, not on the level that Anakin does (as an emotional dependency). You call it "cruel" but I think it was more borne of ignorance. The Jedi likely thought (misguidedly) that giving Anakin a clean break with his mother would be the easiest thing for him. Without contact, he would stop reinforcing his attachment to her. Of course it doesn't make much sense if you've ever been attached to anyone, but the Jedi haven't -- and that's an important point.

    You are right that it would put Anakin's mind at ease, but I think the Jedi prioritized reducing his attachment. He was supposed to let go of his mother and move on with his life. I think your last point is important -- the Jedi can't empathize with Anakin's situation nor do they understand his emotions. Because they have been brought up in a way that is very alien.

    You see it with children who grow up in group settings a lot, such as orphanages -- a lot of them have what are termed "attachment disorders." They have no primary caregivers in early childhood (such as Anakin's mother was to him) and thus they have a very different understanding of social relationships and emotions. Again, I don't think they are acting out of cruelty, but of ignorance.
  14. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Your opinion is noted. I stand by mine.
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Perhaps some examples of this lack of compassion and emotional balance beyond the question at hand?
  16. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I don't think that's it at all. I don't think we are meant to question Padme's ethics. I think this is just a failure in writing. It's characters doing illogical things. Padme is meant to be one of the heroes in the traditional sense, she is supposed to be virtuous.
    --------------------

    while I agree to an extent, if Padme was as Virtuous as that, she wouldn't have married Anakin and lead a secret life.

    That being said I was watching a bit of AOTC earlier and can't stand that little grin she has during Shmi's burial, It's a kind of funeral, not a wedding for crying out loud.

    Then again I can't decide whether it's Portman's awful acting (I really don't know why she's so praised) or if it's because I think Padme is just an awful character

    perhaps it's a mixture of both.
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  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    So you're saying her marriage was immoral. Perhaps. I don't see it that way, she has no reason to follow Jedi codes anymore than I do. They aren't her codes to live by, she has made no oath or pledged any sort of adherence to these rules.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 23, 2013
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  18. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    not immoral no,

    but she knew it could land him in a lot of trouble by agreeing to it. Not that he didn't have his own mind, but that's not the point I was making.

    And lets not forget the "oh, well it's alright you were teh angry, it's natural" response to when Anakin admitted his guilt to killing Tusken children.
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  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think that falls more into the bad writing thing again. Nothing about their relationship really makes a lot of sense.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  20. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    The entire thematic underlay I perceive from watching a trilogy of films that ends with the fall of a once great republic. The words and actions of a character who by trilogy's end is willing to accept the worst form of escapism, ignore her husband's crimes, and embrace an out of sight/out of mind philosophy in regards to the society she is supposed to serve.
    minnishe likes this.
  21. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    How many years did Padme have to do something about Shmi ? 10 years .

    10 years . Shmi who risked the life of her only child to help this girl , and what thanks does she get ? Padme had plenty of resources and time to help her .

    and yet when a jedi knight is captured on Geonosis she's all up for going there straight away , even tho it risks starting a war .

    its just bad writing .

    I remember raising this in 2002 and people kept saying - the story isn't over yet , it'll be addressed in ROTS .

    it wasn't .
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  22. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Are you kidding? Padme is supposed to be a sentient being with virtues and flaws. That is what makes her a good character. And dismissing Padme's "failure" to free Shmi as bad writing is ludicrous to me. This smacks of wishful thinking and some desire that all of the "good guys" always do or say the right thing 24/7.



    Why on earth would Padme give a rat's ass about the fate of the Tusken Raiders, who had kidnapped and tortured Shmi for an entire month before the latter died? A woman whom Padme briefly knew and liked very much 10 years before? Why do certain fans insist that Padme behave like some virtuous ice princess who always do or say the right thing? They don't want complex characterizations. They want one-dimensional and lazily written characters they can easily label "good" or "evil" . . . as if the saga was solely written for children.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jun 24, 2013
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  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I accept the explanation in that book, that Qui-Gon sent a Tobal lens, which she eventually gave to Cliegg and Owen to trade for her freedom. So he did free her eventually, it just wasn't quite as simple as taking her.
    minnishe likes this.
  24. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    haven't read that book . what's a tobal lens and when did he send it to her ?
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tobal_lens

    He took steps to ensure it would be sent to her, while on Coruscant.

    We see him actually talk to Obi-Wan about it, in another book: The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi:

    bolded lines are in movie- conversation continues in book:

    Obi Wan said, "The boy will not pass the Council's training. He's too old."
    Qui-Gon replied, "Anakin will become a Jedi, I promise you."
    "Do not defy the Council, Master ... not again."
    "I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan."
    "If you just follow the code, you would be on the Council. They will not go along with you this time."
    Qui Gon placed his hand on Obi-Wan's shoulder and said "You still have much to learn, my young apprentice."
    Obi-Wan gazed out across the surrounding skyscrapers. "What if the boy decides he wants to be with his mother?"
    "That would be Anakin's choice," Qui-Gon said. "However, I've already taken a step to help his mother. I've arranged for a courier to go to Tatooine and deliver a Tobal lens to Shmi Skywalker."
    "A Tobal lens?" Obi-Wan said. "You mean the crystal used to convert heat to light, the type used to power Renatta photon drives?"
    Qui-Gon nodded. "The Toyarian who owns Shmi won't accept Republic credits, and he would be suspicious, to say the least, if Shmi suddenly had any large amount of currency to buy her freedom. However, I believe that if Shmi acquired an item such as a Tobal lens, she would recognize its value as a bargaining chip."
    Obi-Wan shook his head. "You can be most baffling, Master."
    Qui-Gon shrugged. "As I said, you have much to learn."
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