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PT Why didn't the Republic have an army?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Arthurius, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The system was corrupt. The corruption came in letting organizations like the Federation have a seat in the Senate. That's like letting Apple or Mircosoft have a seat in either branch of congress. In turn, the Senate allowed the Federation to protect itself through the use of Battle Droids which could be mass produced for war, in short order. And the Jedi tolerated the system because to go further would to become like the Sith. That's why the Sith came about in the first place. They wanted to make things the way that they thought they should be and that was not right. The only thing that could be done was to do what was done, which was to have the people fight back against the threat. Which in turn is what the Alliance did. The people needed to fight for the people and the Jedi just needed to make sure that the Sith didn't start up again.
     
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  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Nowhere is it ever stated the Republic has no police forces. What they clearly don't have is a large, federalized army.

    There's absolutely nothing nonsensical about a government which does not maintain a large, permanent standing army but does allow its member states (of which the Trade Federation, despite its name, is one) to maintain militias for their own defense. Like I already pointed out, this was the status quo for quite a while in the United States. The United States didn't start to fully transition into having a large, permanent, federalized military force until after the Second World War. Before that, there was no need. Again, this is all real history upon which the situation in the prequels was clearly based. Your continued incredulity is therefore slightly baffling.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  3. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 13, 2014
    The Army was built after leaving the Republic. Problem is, we have no idea how long ago they had left the Republic. Also, as the moderators of trade throughout the galaxy, their "security" force is going to be rather large and expansive. On your second point, the Republic would be like the UN. They have a security force, but will not get involved in wars among its members.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    As a federal republic, I would assume war among member states would be highly illegal and the central government certainly would get involved if that were the case. The issue in Episode I is that no one actually knows what is happening on Naboo because the Trade Federation isn't allowing any information to get out.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Absolutely correct. Who are you replying to though? Because I never claimed that it was. It's important that no other recourse is mentioned except the Jedi.

    But the senate's only response is to send a grand total of two Jedi, against potentially the largest concentrated force in the galaxy. And those two Jedi state explicitly that it is not their remit, or not in their power, to do anything except be Padme's bodyguard.

    This situation clearly encourages the TF and other separatists to build forces that they know won't be opposed. That little 9 year old boy can't be crash landing in the correct place all the time.

    Nothing is stated as illegal in TPM. Everybody just seems to react as if what's happening is inconceivable. As if everyone in the galaxy is on trust to not exploit their material wealth in order to get more by any means necessary.

    Good lord. That's when travel between continents and countries was considerably difficult. We're talking about a GFFA where interstellar travel is commonplace.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Senate didn't send the Jedi to Naboo. The Chancellor did to negotiate a settlement. Later on, these Jedi are assigned to protect Padme and keep an eye open for the alleged Sith Lord, since she's going back to fight.

    Ah, they only do what they do because of the Sith manipulating them. The Separatist movement is the result of systems who have grown tired of the status quo. Of the Republic's corruption and tactics. The Separatist Council itself is born because they want to hold onto their power and not lose it to the Senate.

    Ah, not quite. The blockade is legal, but the invasion is illegal unless the Senate can be convinced to approve of it.

    NUTE: "My Lord, is that legal?"

    SIDIOUS: "I will make it legal."

    Right. Which is why there was only the Jedi Order and local security forces. They're the ones who handled small scale conflicts. There hadn't been a galactic wide war in a thousand years. The Republic learned their lessons and it is why there was a full military might after the Galactic Civil War ended, but when Hosnian Prime was destroyed, all those resources were lost.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The TF are allowed to mass their army of conquest and the only response is to send the two Jedi back there that have reported on the invasion, only due to it being unusual or unexpected. It's cut and dried

    The fact that it's illegal to invade is a given. Nowhere is it said in TPM though that it's illegal for the TF's forces to be brought together in one place though. Even if that weren't just made up its the weakest excuse for the state of affairs in TPM being possible.

    So the potential for systems to conquer one another is there but people are on trust. Not that much trust because they still need the Jedi in case that trust's broken. But it's academic because the Jedi can't/won't/shan't fight battles or be armies.

    If there are no armies or invasions to be worried about then why does the senate have a process for legitimising the TF invasion of Naboo?

    The Republic sounds less worthy of saving by the second. Thanks in no small part by the tacit approval of the Jedi.

    What exactly is the "republic" for?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Federation has not used their army to conquer until the Naboo invasion. Nor was the Republic truly aware of how large it had gotten. They were under the impression that the Federation was keeping their numbers within the acceptable limits. If the Federation hides their "assets" from the Republic, that makes it difficult to determine if the Federation is upholding it's part of the bargain.

    The Jedi can only intervene when requested to do so and in certain cases, they have to have consent from the Senate. When the Clone Wars are on the verge of breaking out, the Jedi cannot do it all by themselves which was why the Senate was debating the creation of a military force to aide the Jedi.

    The Republic was corrupted by businesses and organizations that wanted to have their way. The process can only be approved if the elected monarch of Naboo agrees to sign a treaty that will allow the Federation to take control, which in turn would force the Senate to abandon the taxation laws so that they could continue to profit from having tax free trade routes.

    The Jedi are not dictators. They cannot force people to do what they want them to do. It is no different from comic book superheroes who choose to let the governments proceed to exist as is, rather than force them all to do "the right thing". Superman could force Russia, China, North Korea and other like minded nations to be more like other governments, but just because he could doesn't that he should. Superman has to behave responsibly and so does the Jedi Order.

    Throughout most of its history as the dominant galactic power, the Republic did not style itself as a strong centralized government, but rather as a union of sovereign planets for the purposes of collective security and economic prosperity. This is according to Wookieepedia.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Which we're being constantly told it doesn't need, therefore no collective army. But it also has an order of knights (warriors) who can only help if requested and which cannot fight wars, which individual members of the republic are allowed to have the resources to wage on each other.

    The Jedi don't need to be dictators. That's a strawman of immense proportions. The Jedi, in their collective, ancient wisdom just need to be less; credulous, aloof, hypocritical, ignorant, arrogant, self satisfied and complicit in the blatant but preventable iniquities of a rotten society.

    They need to have earn our goodwill in order for their demise to feel tragic. But they passively aggressively stroke their chins and claim that be on top of things while the clearly aren't and they know they aren't. They have a perceived position of power which they are more concerned with protecting rather than actually using that power where it's needed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    It's pretty rich to see you patronizing me here. The relevant factor in the United States' military situation was a lack of credible external threats. This was due to its geographic position in the world, but the reason its geographic position was relevant was because of the way it created this lack of credible external threats (this is very important to understand). The government of the Galactic Republic is in a similar situation because it controls most of the territory in the galaxy, and the few non-Republic state actors like the Hutt Cartel are too small and too comfortable with the status quo to pose any military threat. In other words, in terms of the presence of credible external threats or lack thereof, the pre-Clone Wars era Galactic Republic is in a near-identical geopolitical situation to the early United States. The relative travel capabilities of the two civilizations is a complete non-sequitur--that's not what's relevant, and I'm frankly at a loss as to why you even brought it up.

    Again, as I pointed out earlier, the United States was in a comparable situation prior to the Civil War as it was prior to World War II, and for largely the same reasons. With the advent of the Civil War it underwent a massive military build-up from the comparatively anemic status quo, just as the Republic does when faced with its own civil war. After the Civil War there was a general military draw-down because with the major threat passed, the government could provide no credible reason to maintain the military at that level. In contrast, after World War II, the threat of the Soviet Union and the persistent specter of Communism served as political justification for maintaining and continually increasing the strength of the U.S. military--just as Palpatine seizes on the persistent threat of Separatist/Rebel insurgency to justify the continued expansion of the Imperial military.

    George Lucas knows his history. That's part of why he does so much reading and research before each film. Reading books is cool; I highly recommend it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I'm not patronizing you. North America had no external threats that it needed a standing army for because intercontinental transport was unthinkable to anyone that might conceivably have wanted to enter conflict with them. Everyone else who had the means was an ally. If intercontinental travel was as commonplace in pre 20th century earth as it was in the next century and interstellar travel appears to be in the GFFA, then American policy on security would have been very much different.

    America pre the World Wars is not comparable with the Republic era GFFA. Unless you take the Republic's non-standing army status and work backwards to an assumption that the conditions are the same, without any meaningful points of reference. In other words, it's another one of these trite platitudes. Either there is a far more complex and relevant comparison, or it's just as it is because the author wanted it that way in order for their plot to operate. Either is acceptable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  12. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    But the point is that the lack of travel leaves America isolated, and thus safe from external threats. The Republic has the same isolation, by dint of it encompassing the majority of the galaxy.

    We'd need Inter-galactic travel in SW for your argument be applicable here.
     
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  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Or for the United States to have ever in its history formed and used the National Guard or regular army troops to "keep order" or to protect domestic and foreign policy and policymkaers.
     
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, first of all, you were blatantly patronizing me. I don't really care that much, though, so nevermind. I forgive you.

    Second of all, you didn't actually address anything in my post. You transparently side-stepped the points where I specifically explained why transport capabilities are irrelevant to the issue being discussed. Then in your second paragraph you simply made an assertion without backing it up with any points whatsoever.

    I bet you thought I wouldn't notice, you sly dog. Well, I did. Anyway, I gracefully accept your concession of the argument.

    What?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Oh lord!

    It may not have always had a significant army to combat external threats. But it has always, since the revolution, had and army or armies to maintain order of its citizens internally. It's pretty clear.

    Lack of an external threat has never been a barrier to the US having a centrally controlled army that was sufficient to maintain domestic order. It's as simple as that. So it cannot be compared with the pre-clone army Republic.
     
  16. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Why would you assume the Republic didn't have a force capable of maintaining domestic order? That would seem to be common sense. What they didn't have was an army capable of fending off an insurrection. Which is exactly the same as the U.S. before the Civil War.

    Are you trying to conflate the ability to fend off a potential large-scale insurrection with the ability for routine maintenance of the domestic order? I truly can't understand what you're trying to say. I certainly hope you're not trying to say that, though, because that would be exceedingly silly.
     
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    That's ok

    . It's not important.
     
  18. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    The Repblic even does have an internal security force: The Jedi.

    As we plainly see in AOTC, the Jedi are fine with small internal disputes, but are outclassed by a larger external threat.
     
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  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    But even in TPM it's said that the Jedi can't/shan't/won't get involved in the battle that's about to start on Naboo. Maybe the Jedi had the capacity. But it's immaterial because, for "reasons", they don't/won't/can't do that kind of thing.

    They are the guardians of peace and justice, but the only thing we ever see Jedi guarding in the entire saga is Padme Amidala.
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Do you have a response? I fully admit to being confused by all this. There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't understand something.
     
  21. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Look at the Republic as a bit more powerful UN. The planets had militaries, but the galaxy wide body did not.
     
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  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    No there isn't. Like I said. It's not really important is it? There appears to be no genuine possibility or desire for you to change your mind or accept another perspective anyway, either way. So there's no real point in going over the same ground.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Except this does not fit AotC.
    Mace says that IF the seps attack, there won't be enough Jedi to protect the republic.
    If some of the individual planets have armies and they are a part of the republic and the seps attack said republic, won't those armies come into play?

    Dooku says pretty much the same thing, they plan to attack and overwhelm the Jedi and after that, the republic will do as they say.
    Again where are those local armies?

    Lastly, on Geonosis, Nute is totally surprised that the Jedi have an army of 200 000 soldiers and calls it a huge army.
    How many systems are there in the republic and that are not part of the seps?
    Say 90 000. And say that 10 % of these have actual armies.
    So that means 9000 systems.
    And says that these have 10 000 soldiers each. That is a combined military of 90 million soldiers.
    And yet 200 000 is said to be huge and something that the republic could not muster in short order.

    No, from what AotC says, the republic has no soldiers and the individual planets don't have anything that would make any kind of difference.
    So the Jedi are the only defense the republic has.

    You mention the UN.
    Say that aliens attack and try to conquer Earth, won't the US army, Russian army, Chinese army be a factor in this case?
    Yes, they would, so the Earth is not without soldiers.

    But if the republic would be attacked, the Jedi are apparently the only ones that can defend it.
    No local armies are ever mentioned or even hinted at.
    And again, both Mace and Dooku makes it sound like there are none.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface.
     
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  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It's time (always) to stick to what the movies SAY the republic has and doesn't have. Or what it does or doesn't do. Instead of what people reckon it "would" have or "shouldn't" have because it's supposed to be like the pre modern era United States.

    They don't have an army because there's been no wars (internal or external)

    Constituent members are allowed to have armies capable of subjugating other systems in the republic, but it's not allowed to be used in that way and therefore not expected that anyone would ever use their forces for that purpose.


    When the TF invades and makes war on Naboo- the Jedi can't/won't/shan't get involved. Except they do, only in order for the Queen safely to get to the battlefield (that doesn't exist according to the Senate and, by extension, the Jedi order. ) And to seek out the Sith, that the Jedi don't believe exists.


    There is seemingly no contingency for anyone else in the Republic handling such a conflict. No treaties which ensure that constituent members consolidate and use the forces they are allowed to have to protect them from pirates (not the Jedi's job either, presumably) in order to preserve justice, order and/or peace in an emergency situation like.


    Maybe there is a contingency plan that involves local forces and not just the Jedi. But it is a huge gap if there was one and it wasn't considered, explicitly, during the movie.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    It's reasonable to think they'd never be used that way, because any Republic member that attacked another member would expect to face severe consequences. The Trade Federation itself would never have attacked Naboo for fear of those very consequences, and only did so because it was egged on by Darth Sidious, a man boasting mysterious powers over the Senate which would allow the Federation to get off scot-free.

    It wasn't until an entity like the Federation pushed the limits of the Republic's laws and almost got away with it that anyone realized there was really nothing stopping something like that from happening. Just like how no one realized until Donald Trump did it that a United States presidential candidate could flout all the political norms and break all the rules of campaigning and still win an election. Previously, the fear of electoral consequences was keeping all previous U.S. presidential candidates within a narrow band of what was considered acceptable behavior. It turns out, the fear of electoral consequences keeping them in line was unfounded. But no one knew that, and so that fear still acted as a check on their behavior.

    Whoa whoa whoa, what? The Jedi 100% believe that the Trade Federation has illegally invaded Naboo. Why on Earth would you think otherwise? A good portion of the Senate believes so as well, judging by the enthusiastic show of support for her vote to depose Valorum and subsequent election of Palpatine on a sympathy wave--but the bureaucratic rules of the Senate are preventing them from taking action. The whole point is that the Senate has become so dysfunctional and tied up in red tape that it's unable to act to resolve a clear-cut crisis. The Senate isn't supposed to come across as functional at this point.

    Why would there be treaties joining Republic members in mutual defense pacts against other Republic members? That would be completely at odds with the very concept of a unified democratic polity. It's nonsensical.

    The contingency is that the Senate uses its power to slap down such a clear violation of a Republic member world's sovereignty. But the Senate can't do that, because it's dysfunctional. That's why Valorum has to send the Jedi in secret at the beginning of the movie, and it's why the Senate fails to authorize the use of force against the Federation later on. But no one realized the Senate had become that dysfunctional until it was faced with a crisis it was unable to resolve.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
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