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PT Why didn't the Republic have an army?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Arthurius, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. BLemelisk

    BLemelisk Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Always wondered that about the Republic Navy at Geonosis. Are we to believe all that hardware and equipment were created in secret also? The clones I can buy. But an entirely new and massive class of warship and full array of support craft and mechanized units?
     
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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Republic fleet was new, either within one or two years or at least five. But sponsored by the Republic. The Clone Army's other weapons were probably built in secret, and sent to Kamino by Tyranus. Afterwards, Palpatine approved of additional supplies which accounts for the stuff we see in TCW and ROTS.
     
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  3. BLemelisk

    BLemelisk Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Of course Palpatine would have had the Senate broaden their war machine after hostilities began, but before?

    In Legends canon there were massive warships comprising sector and planetary fleets, but not the Republic's own navy, which was made up mostly of those diplomatic cruisers from TPM.

    Do we assume that the heavy Clone Wars designs, like the Acclamator, were produced and then kept quietly as part of the Kuat / Rothana sector defense fleet until Geonsis?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The Navy was in existence before Palpatine took over. I wager that the Senate provided newer ships and certain types of weaponry before Palpatine began his take over of the Republic. What we see on Geonosis was probably the current generation, made around the time of the Battle of Naboo. And then we see the newer models during TCW and ROTS.
     
  5. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Then of course you would wonder where that "navy" was during TPM. In some hangar on Coruscant when it was obviously needed at Naboo? The only remotely military.... no, wait, the only Republic ship of any type we see, is the one at the beginning of the movie, the one Qui-Gon and Kenobi came in. After that the Jedi only used Naboo ships to get around. OK, at the end of TPM Palpatine lands on Naboo in another type of ship, but we don't know if that is part of a military or just a Senate owned ship for senators to use. Or maybe was it possibly Palpatine's private ship? It could be in the novelization but I don't have it here now.
    The first time we see a fighter isn't until Kenobi goes to Kamino in AOTC. It's called "Jedi starfighter" but clearly has the symbol of the Republic on it. So we have to assume that type of ship didn't exist until some time between TPM and AOTC. If it did, the question is why were they not used?
     
  6. BLemelisk

    BLemelisk Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Panaka in TPM says "the Senate would revoke their trade franchise and they'd be finished."

    This is coming from a security officer on a besieged Republic member planet. The exact type of place a Republic Navy could be deployed to. Doesn't sound like the threat of military retaliation is on the table at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  7. Torib

    Torib Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 27, 2016
    As far as the wider Republic is concerned, the question of the trade federation blockade in TPM is a political issue, not a military one. That is, the federation is only doing what it's doing because it has enough support in the Senate to get away with it. Never is it suggested that the federation would or could openly defy the Republic as a whole without the political cover of its allies in the Senate. So whether there's a navy or not, it seems that the Republic still has enough authority at this time (whether derived from precedent or actual military strength) that even the Federation with its armies doesn't quite feel comfortable challenging it directly. Personally, I don't believe the Republic has much of a navy at this time. But we do know that other private armies exist other than the Federation's. My assumption would be that if the Republic were directly threatened at the time of TPM (by, say, a rogue trade federation) that these other armies would be used in its defense. The reason this is no longer an option in AOTC is that Dooku has managed to unite most of these groups behind the separatist cause.

    Also, it's worth keeping in mind the importance of political norms. The Roman Republic, for example, never had a permanent army to defend itself. And yet for hundreds of years no Roman general ever tried to march on the city and take personal control of it. But then Sulla did. And so then his enemy Marius did. And then came Pompey and Caesar. The norms that for centuries had preserved the authority of the government had vanished almost overnight. I think something similar is at work in the time period from TPM to AOTC. These corporations with private armies and massive political influence are beginning to throw their weight around and defy the norms that heretofore had kept the government functioning.
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The Navy can only be deployed if the Senate and the Chancellor do so. And last I checked, the Senate was in turmoil because the Chancellor was booted out of office and they're trying to elect a replacement. Not to mention that just before that, there was a call to form a committee to investigate Padme's outrageous allegations. By the time that was all said and done, the matter was closed.

    And Torib is right, there's a reason Palpatine did things the way that he did. Otherwise, the whole thing would have fallen apart.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I think this is what Palpatine alluded to. The Republic was not what it once was. It was decadent, bloated, corrupt. The bureaucrats were in charge. No interest in the common good.

    Only a strong visionary leader like himself could usher in an era of change, prosperity and peace.

    I think though the Jedi were the only "active" peacekeepers in existence (they served at the pleasure of the Republic it would seem in TPM). And the whole setup seems apathetic.

    I did like the HISHE TPM where Queen Amidala presents a holo recording of their ship coming under attack from the Federation battleship in front of the Senate. Furthermore she says she has plenty of witnesses, two of whom were Jedi. Which added strength to the case (the Jedi being considered highly).

    The Republic certainly seems like an ineffectual and corrupt government that we see.
     
  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Then the Trade Federation senators would just claim the holos were faked and the Jedi are untrustworthy, being the illicit ambassadors of a corrupt chancellor known to be opposed to the Federation. The Trade Federation would have everyone believe the Queen and her political allies are engaged in a conspiracy to cheat the Federation out of rightfully owed trade concessions. Maybe no one in the Senate would really believe this, but it doesn't matter, because it's technically possible (either way, someone must be conspiring against the other), and the bureaucratic rules demand that an investigative committee be appointed if one is asked for. If the firsthand testimony of the democratically elected sovereign of a Republic member world isn't enough for immediate action, why would those other things be?

    Given that showing all this would have just taken up more time and led to the exact same outcome, and that the Jedi characters had other business to attend to for the sake of the story, it's perfectly forgivable that such things were elided for the sake of narrative economy.

    I know people really hate when we bring up the flaws of the other movies, but this is the sort of thing that is done all the time in order to move the story along and get things where they need to be. The movies move along at a quick enough pace that the vast majority of people don't think about stuff like this while they're watching--and anyone who has the presence of mind to think about it later should be perfectly capable of coming up with the obvious and rational explanation just as I have.

    Gee. No kidding.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  11. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes I agree. As for the Senate, I have no doubt whatever happened, it was going to just create more committees and spend more time deliberating probably with a view to doing nothing anyway. Clearly the Republic is living on a different planet lol than the rest of the galactic citizens. As Palpatine quite rightly said, there simply is no interest in the common good.

    But as for the Jedi, I find their role somewhat nebulous. They certainly do not seem busy in TPM. It is only in AOTC, where the opening crawl and story seems to suggest that they are overstretched and may be overwhelmed should major disruption occur. So in TPM, it seems odd that the Jedi take virtually no action to investigate. Qui Gon noted the Federation's move seemed illogical. And given the emergence of someone trained in the Jedi arts, and believed to be a dangerous foe thought destroyed, surely the Council would have had far more Jedi to spare than in AOTC, to dispatch to investigate?

    After all, Jedi going to investigate this mysterious dark warrior (as Obi Wan and Qui Gon were dispatched back to Naboo) seems a priority. Should not more Jedi have been sent to observe and discover his identity?

    And yes, the Republic was totally corrupt. Frankly an Empire seemed much more meritocratic and efficient. If only it kept the likes of Tarkin and Krennic at bay. Frankly it has shown itself to fight crime and even have a presence on worlds where "The Republic doesn't exist out here" in the PT. What you need is an Empire influenced/led by the Jedi Order.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The Jedi cannot take action if they're not given consent to by the Senate, or the Chancellor. It is one thing to see if a Sith Lord was involved or not, but it was another to do more than that. Two Jedi alone were sufficient to deal with Maul, since they didn't believe he was a Sith. As to the Empire being better, it wasn't. The Hutts still controlled the Outer Rim and criminal organizations like Black Sun, still existed. The Outer Rim was treated no differently under the Empire, than it was in the Republic. Tarkin and Krennic had the positions they had because Palpatine put them there. The Empire didn't become evil because of a few bad actors. It was rotten from the word go.
     
  13. BLemelisk

    BLemelisk Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 19, 2003
    If anything, Rogue One shows us how nepotism more than merit came into play in the Empire.

    Krennic, as shown in the film, broke his back to get the Death Star built. What did Tarkin do? Sit atop his political clout and take over after all the heavy lifting was done.

    The Republic with Palpatine imprisoned / dead is an interesting series of what-ifs. What would the next Supreme Chancellor do about disbanding the Clone Army? Did the Kaminoans have a recycling system? :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011

    Even a corrupted democracy is better than a totalitarian empire. A corrupted democracy at least possesses the potential for civic reform. A totalitarian empire is utterly defined by corruption and can only be reformed through violent overthrow.

    The Republic could have been saved. The only reason it fell is because its flaws and imperfections caused too many people to lose faith that it could be saved, and so they stopped trying.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  15. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I didn't think we saw the Empire as corrupt though. Credit where credit is due. It was a meritocracy. It was a transformation from a Republic to an Empire. The fault I think lied in mixing the transition with the elimination of the peacekeeping and moral Jedi Order. An the appointment of a few crackpots like Tarkin.

    However the Republic did not appear to have many people who wanted to save it. Even the Jedi were far too apathetic to its decline until it was too late.

    I would have liked to have seen a Jedi Council junta led Republic, even if it would have only been temporary.
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Again, it was a dictatorship that was created by a Sith Lord. The very definition of evil and corrupt. Tarkin did what he did, not because he was a crackpot, but because he was a like minded individual to Palpatine. Palpatine wanted a weapon of war to control the Empire with and Tarkin brought up the idea of the Death Star to him, and it gestated from there. That's why Palpatine has a second built after he and Krennic are dead.

    There were those who wanted to save the Republic. Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma to name a few. The Jedi also believed in saving the Republic, which is why Mace took action the way that he did and why Yoda tried to finish the job for him.
     
  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    When taking legends sources into account it's good to remember the republic didn't really have any external enemies. The Hutts were content with their policy of Kajidic, the various minor states such as the centrality and of course the Hapans weren't really a threat.

    And the unknown regions were of course unknown.

    And the megacorps would have hardly wanted a force that could effectively counterbalance them.

    The republic did have security forces-the judicial forces, sector and local security, however I imagine the quality of these forces was uneven and I doubt the republic could have conscripted the non judicial forces easily without resistance.
     
  18. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 11, 2011
    There clearly is a Republic military/paramilitary establishment of some sort. This is clear from the very first scene in TPM. The crew of the Radiant VII are known to have been sent by Chancellor Valorum to transport the two Jedi to Naboo, and they're dressed in the same style of uniform as later Republic/Imperial military officers.

    There's a sizeable number of ships in the Republic central government's fleet from pre-TPM up to the formation of the Grand Army of the Republic, with specialised warship classes entering service around the time that the first clone troopers are deployed. Maybe, as @darth-sinister said, they were designed and built for service in the pre-Clone Wars central government forces. Or they might even be transferred from the fleets of Republic member states.

    Yeah, the HISHE alternative misses the point. Due process has to be followed before the Republic takes action against the TF, but as in the real world, due process can be exploited by malignant actors to avoid having to answer for their abuses. Padme initially thinks it's an open-and-shut matter of legality, but Palpatine demonstrates to her that it's actually a highly politicised issue.

    Faith in the rule of law continuously breaks down between TPM, AOTC and ROTS.


    A lot of external, audience judgment on the state of the galaxy in the OT and PT is clearly intentional on the part of the writer(s).

    The obvious problem with the Republic in TPM and up to the middle of AOTC is the weakness of its central government. The Trade Federation can operate with impunity while Coruscant's hands are tied, and the Hutt clans rule in the Outer Rim. Based on what Shmi says to Padme, Tatooine might even be a de jure part of the Republic but it's de facto beyond its reach, to the point that its businesses don't even accept Republic currency and operate free from Republic anti-slavery laws.

    TPM depicts the Republic as almost an extreme minarchist dystopia, where tyrannical private power results in suffering that lays the groundwork for state tyranny. Palpatine gets elected by promising reform, but is apparently stalled up until AOTC, after which the process accelerates towards a horrific opposite extreme that doesn't even rectify most of the old system's problems. For example, the central government is much more present on Tatooine in ANH/ROTJ than in TPM/AOTC, but slavery and Hutt domination continue. Anakin's character arc reflects this.

    The military weakness of the central government relative to the other powers is part of that depiction. The private sector corporations become ever more militarily assertive up to AOTC, with the central government only finally asserting its power by deploying clone troopers to kill Separatists. Part of the tragedy of the PT is that the situation degenerates to this point.
     
  19. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 11, 2017
    Could be wrong here, but I believe that the Republic Navy had some of it's roots in the old Judicial Department (a sort of Galactic police-force) which was replaced with the Navy and the GAR at the start of the war.
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Judicial_Department

    Beyond that I've always gotten the impression that the Republic was more of a Trade bloc than a country, so perhaps it didn't really need a standing army.
     
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  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Makes sense to me that the older Republic non-clone officers (Tarkin, Yularen, etc) were serving in the Judicial forces before the outbreak of the Clone Wars.
     
  21. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014

    Indeed. One thing you have to give credit where credit is due. The Republic is shown to either be too ineffectual or simply not care about the lack of order, of the law across the galaxy.

    Slavery, criminality, this is not how citizens were meant to live. The Empire had the will to act. We see on Tatooine, scum and villainy are no longer openly walking about on the streets. They resort to hiding, and at best, operate in so called "palaces" out in the barren desolate sand dunes, away from the main population. Jawa dealers who steal and "push" dodgy droids onto helpless farmers are apprehended. (When the Jawa's resisted, the Troopers had no option, but to defend themselves).

    The Empire at least is shown to be maintaining, or trying to maintain order. It tries. And it cares about the law. Actually, if you watch the opening scene of ANH after seeing the PT, who really fired first on the Tantive? As far as I can see, the Imperial troopers fire clear warning shots, and the Rebels make the first kill. It really made me wonder, when a fellow viewer asked me, wait who are the good guys (having just watched ROTS)?
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The Empire doesn't do anything benevolent. Tatooine and the other Outer Rim worlds under control of the Hutts are still filled with crime and slavery. Worlds like Lothal were used as amusement by the Empire, or because they have cheap labor that can be enslaved. In fact, the Empire did use slaves themselves. See the Wookiees of Kashyyk. In fact, the Empire abolished the Republic's anti-slavery laws.

    If that person just watched the PT and couldn't recognize Threepio, Artoo and the Tantive, much less Stormtroopers, then that person is an idiot.
     
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  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Or if they had lived through the PT and interacted with Threepio and Artoo....
    [​IMG]
     
  24. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    I don’t know about you, but I’d rather live in a corrupt democracy where at least I can have a say in politics rather than a totalitarian dictatorship where I have no say, my every move is watched, and any sign of sedition is met with swift, harsh retribution.

    C’mon, I thought all the dictatorships we’ve had in our world was enough to show us that they don’t work.
     
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  25. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    The Empire is shown to be a meritocracy.

    You could have had all the say you want, but as a citizen of Naboo, no one from the precious Republic came to help you when you needed help.

    As for those who wanted to secede from the Republic, they formed a Grand Army and attempted to quell that immediately.

    And I'm not citizens of Tatooine who live in open slavery on the streets of the towns themselves would prefer that to the policed streets of Mos Eisley where the criminals hide in bars. Or those who suffer at the hands of Tuskens and are taken to be tortured.

    Democracy isn't just about propping up corrupt political classes. Do you really have a say in the Republic Senate. The bureaucrats are in charge, the true rulers of the Republic. And on the payroll of the Trade Federation I might add. There is not civility. Only politics.

    To quote the Old Republic game, "You were deceived..."
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018