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PT Why didn't the Senate question Palpatine's sudden grand army of the Republic?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Dmasterman, Jul 22, 2013.

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  1. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1
    Maybe a novel mentioned it, but I just find it weird that none of the senators were curious to how a fully prepared army was already created, outfitted, equipped, trained and ready to go to war while they were still in the debating process of allowing it. Even if they did allow it
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  2. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    What is there to question?
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jul 22, 2013
  3. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I think in this case, it helped that Palpatine didn't discover the army himself. Instead, it was through Obi-Wan and the Jedi who serve the Senate. Additionally, at that point, the Senate didn't really have any options -- Obi-Wan had reported that the Separatists had a massive army and were poised to attack. Meanwhile, they captured him and immediately sentenced him to execution. Any of the Senators' remaining doubts would have further been washed away once they realized that the Separatists had been perfectly willing to kill Padmé -- a Senator herself.

    At the juncture of the films, if the Senate doesn't accept the Clone Army, they're basically admitting that they are at the mercy of the Separtists. Their only option at that point would be to try to conscript citizens into an army for the Republic. But I doubt they would have the time to outfit and train such personnel into an effective fighting force. Not to mention how intensely unpopular such a move would be. The people of the Republic might be suspicious of the army's origin, but I think the vast majority would still rather send the clones rather than their sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters to die on the front lines.

    Part desperation, part fear, part political maneuvering -- I don't think it's difficult to see why the Senate acquiesced personally. In times of war and crisis, especially, people tend to rally around their leaders and I imagine that those who raised questions or opposition would have been smeared as disloyal.
  4. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1
    the title
  5. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    So you're asking why the Senate didn't question the title of the Republic's new military?

    So, like, someone in the Senate should have suggested "Why don't we call it 'People's Mook Army of the Republic'?"

    You're saying they should have held a vote on the title of the military?
  6. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1

    No I misread that. I thought you said what was the question and I said it was in the title

    I was saying why did they not question how palpatine acquired an army suddenly when they weren't even in the process of building it
  7. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1
    Perhaps but while they were fearful of the war, wouldn't they be surprised that the republic just got an army out of nowhere, like a miracle? Considering they they had to worry about creating this army when it may be too late? I figure if they did question it, the republic could've been lead to find out it's sources and eventually learn of Palpatine's orchestration of the republic vs CIS war
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I'm sure they were surprised, but I think they also saw the clones as the lesser of two evils as well. It was either use the clones, capitulate to the Separtists (who have no qualms about killing Senators), or try to raise an army of conscripts (in which millions to billions of citizens would die -- and which would be an incredibly unpopular move, not to mention the logistics nightmare).

    In terms of Palpatine, I think one also needs to consider that there is nothing truly concrete tying him directly to the army as it is the Jedi who discovered it.
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  9. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1
    I can understand why they'd go along with it or use it, but why they wouldn't investigate it and ask why their army was all ready and set for war. You'd think SOMEONE would wonder "Why was this grand army already prepared? Did someone know we were going to war or that the Separatist movement would escalate to war? Did Palpatine know about it?" (I'm sure his Sidous persona did) I think the only thing the Republic actually knew about the Clones is that they were from Kamino and sold there. But no one thought to make a commission to investigate why they were already prepared and waiting, or what this new army that just poofed out of nowhere (at least to the republic) and wondered what they could do. I doubt the republic knew about the clone's secret orders like order 66.. or anything between 1 and 66.
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    It's definitely not addressed as in-depth in the films as it could have been. But it's not a dealbreaker in my opinion, either. It seems to me that a commission would have been appointed but found exceedingly little information. The reason I say this is because the Kaminoans seem a bit..well, out of the loop -- the biggest example being that they didn't even know that Sifo Dyas had died after ten years. And Dex does say that they keep to themselves and seem only interested in money. I can imagine that any money the Kaminoans would have received would be untraceable (either through cash or an unlisted bank account) and thus the investigation wouldn't progress very well. Especially since Palpatine could likely place a few of his stooges to misdirect the committee with relative ease. Add to that the fact that the Senate probably doesn't want there to be anything wrong with the clones (since they're basically the Republic's lifeline at this point) and I can see the investigation stalling.

    The orders (such as Order 66) may have been know, but they were likely considered contingency orders to only be utilized in the event of a catastrophe. That'd be my guess.
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  11. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1

    Well it's obvious there was some sort of connection and communication with Kamino and the republic. Isn't Kamino part of the republic? Either way, when the clone wars commenced there was definitely a communication. In the series it shows that there were some Republic (commanders)? teaching clones and obviously more clones were being dished out for the war effort. So I figure the Republic could easily head over to Kamino to learn more about their army or ask when did they start creating it, why, etc etc. I figure Palpatine could do something stop an investigation or anything like that, but I'd be okay with the fact that the Republic tried to find out how a miracle of an army, all built, ready to fight, all equipped was here to fight and save them from the separatist. The republic also should've been wondering how they were going to pay for this army and have meetings/debates about it.

    Also wouldn't an investigation of the clones and their origins be a necessity if the Senate doesn't want there to be anything wrong with the clones?
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Up until AOTC, though, the connection was tenuous at best. Kamino actually isn't part of the Republic -- it's beyond the Outer Rim according to Dex. Given that Tatooine is part of the Outer Rim and yet there's hardly any Republic presence on that planet, I think it's likely that the Kaminoans would not have been in contact with the Republic until Obi-Wan arrived. My guess is that there wasn't much to investigate in regards to the clones. I doubt that there was a money trail (especially if the Kaminoans were paid through cash) and thus, the only things tying them to the Republic are Sifo Dyas and Jango Fett. Well, Sifo Dyas is dead and so is Jango Fett after the battle at Geonosis. The only other person mentioned was Tyranus (which is Dooku's Sith name that he doesn't appear to publicly use) so I can see how an investigation by the Senate would hit a dead end, especially if it was impeded by Palpatine.

    As to how the army would be paid for -- I imagine through taxes. They were already debating the formation of an army so it's not inconceivable that this would be something that was brought up. And with the Separatists on their doorstep, there's not going to be as much debate about the cost. Just my thoughts on the matter.
  13. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    You answered your own question.
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  14. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Palpatine actually did act to stop investigations into the clone army. In playing both sides, he was able to keep the jedi busy, keep the senate busy, and anyone else busy. Not only was Kamino not a part of the Republic, but as PiettsHat mentioned, they were beyond the outer rim. Hyperspace lanes to that part of space were strongly contested during the war. Look up The Battle of Christophsis. It took place only weeks into the war, and for a time, the CIS successfully cut off the Republic's access to Kamino. So getting to Kamino for an investigation wasn't as easy as it would seem to be. Besides, we all know how slow the senate is at voting and organizing such matters. Chancellor Valorum had to secretly send in jedi to investigate the Naboo situation in TPM. And this clone situation led to too many dead ends. Jedi files would have to be submitted to the senate, and those files were falsified anyway. The senate was just too inefficient and the deck was stacked against them ever finding out the truth with Palpatine playing both sides, and sabotaging either side when it suited his needs.

    As far as having to pay for the army, the Senate was actually debating heavily over deregulating the banks in order to escalate the war. Senator's Amidala and Organa were against escalating the war, whereas representatives from the Banking Clan, and the Trade Federation were pushing strongly for that vote (for obvious reasons) In the end, the senate voted to deregulate the banks.
  15. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1
    I would suppose that it wouldn't be easy nor would they successfully found out. But I think if they had attempted to launch an investigation or at least ask the questions like why was it that an army conveniently fell into the republic's lap at the outbreak of a war. We have to remember that before it wasn't a war in the beginning of EP 2 and the Republic was trying to be cautious not to let it become a war. So someone had to be curious to why this army was built (and still building). It just seems like someone would've raised a brow to this rather straightforward conspiracy.

    I mean could anyone have simply asked "Hey Palpatine, why was it while we were debating on making an army it was already built and manufactured without our notice? Did you know before hand, we were going to war?"

    I'm sure Palpatine could've come up with an excuse, but it is an intriguing question to ask.


    Not really, I said "Maybe a novel mentioned it" I don't know if they did or not, or the details of why the republic didn't question their poofed army.



    There was one episode of the Clone Wars series where they talked about the money and payment of the war effort and there were debates on how to spend or if they should spend more. So it seems they weren't entirely that sure of it, and strikes me more that republic themselves were surprised at the army that fell into their lap and weren't ready to pay it.
  16. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    But the answer to all that was well illustrated in all of the movies. Sure, out of all those senators, some of them no doubt wondered. But the Republic Senate was inefficient and stagnant. Palpatine kept the senate and the jedi so busy with other more immediate concerns that to consider this in session would be to go completely off topic in an official senate meeting where thousands of senators had to gather to deliberate on the crisis at hand.

    Imagine that your one of the senators, and Palpatine has you, and all your colleagues in the palm of his hand, and none of you knows it. You just got a new army out of nowhere, but even so, your army is outnumbered, and constantly on the defensive. You might raise an eyebrow as to the origins of this army, but you're really just glad to have it, despite the fact that it might not be enough. You're probably not going to sidetrack an official meeting of the senate where they are discussing how to overcome a more powerful enemy, to suggest an investigation into the army which is your only real defense. The senate would have to stop what it was doing, consider your proposal, go through the mindless debates where any senator could voice his opinion, and then vote. And then you might not win said vote, but if you did, you'd have to worry about your investigative team even making it to Kamino for answers that might not even be possible to discover.

    After all, the jedi investigation hit a dead end in AoTC. How much more luck than the jedi would someone else have?
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 23, 2013
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  17. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1
  18. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    But it's more likely that you wouldn't figure things out, as most of your witnesses were either dead, or working for the opposition. If you could capture Dooku, that would be one thing, but not much chance of that happening.
    Another thing is the army wasn't really doing a good job at defense at first. The clone army had it's back against the wall in the beginnings of the war. The Republic was losing star systems to the CIS left and right, like Jabiim, and Christophsis.

    Once the jedi council discovered the creation of a clone army, the investigation became something much larger than an investigation into an assassination attempt. I wouldn't say the jedi accepted Syfo's part in the creation of the army. A jedi doesn't just do that without consulting the council first, and the council wouldn't do it without the consent of the senate. Then there is the question of where Sifo got the funds to authorize the creation of a clone army. Just saying that Sifo did it leaves far too many questions unanswered for them to just accept it as truth, because whoever did it erased Kamino from the jedi archives. Not to mention Sifo just happened to be conveniently dead. Bringing Jango in for an interview with the jedi council would be overkill if they only thought him an assassin. They wanted answers into the origins of the army he had a large part in creating.

    Besides, not many senators were known for speaking out in favor of obviously unpopular courses of action. Senators Organa, and Amidala were two of the few who ever did. Once the war began, the senate voted from a position of fear. Most of them weren't worried about the origins of the clone army, because they were afraid of the droid army. None of them could have known the clone army would be instrumental in bringing about an oppressive empire.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 23, 2013
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  19. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    I'm sure questions were asked and investigations were launched after the appropriate discussions were held in committee, but by then war was raging. Even if the investigation turned up suspicious answers, it was too late to do anything about it.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think they questioned it because I don't think they cared. They were panicked because they were looking directly down the barrel of the first war in over a thousand years. They had just voted Palpatine "emergency powers" to do whatever the hell he wanted. I think their mindset was, "Oh, there's an army already out there that we can use to kick Separatist ass? Awesome."

    The only Senators that might have questioned where it came from would have been Padme, Bail or Mon Mothma, and Padme was busy wearing a black leather corset and watching Anakin float fruit in the air.
  21. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    :D "We live in a real world. Come back to it." The hearth blazes in the background, illuminating the dark room in warm hues, as Padme nearly bursts out of her slave girl uniform usually reserved for overly horny hutt crime lords. I never quite understood that scene. It seems like a totally unreal world. Nothing like that ever happens to me :(

    No investigation into the clone army had much chance of succeeding, even if there was one. Palpatine would see to it. One such investigation, into Darth Sidious actually did take place. When the investigation turned up too many answers, Palpatine orchestrated the Battle of Coruscant, got himself captured by General Grievous, and had Anakin execute Count Dooku, the only one who had the answers that the jedi wanted. If he could sidetrack a more recent trail like that, imagine how easy it would be for him to scramble an investigation that was 10 years cold before the war even began.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 23, 2013
  22. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    This is kinda awesome to imagine. I'm now picturing every Senator as a militant Amurican.

    Basically this:

    Definitely NSFW

    Republic, **** yeah! Clone troopers, **** yeah! Holonet, **** yeah!

    Someone needs to make a TCW splosion vid with this song and the proper Republic lyrics.

    lol you're on fire, Tracy.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jul 23, 2013
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  23. Darth Ridiculis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2013
    star 1
    In a galaxy bent on instant technological gratification and slam bang action holos, a fast food army was likely digested very easily.
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  24. Darth Ridiculis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2013
    star 1
    Palpatine clearly had it set up so that, if any investigation were to occur, the Jedi would be under scrutiny, furthering the Sith Lord's agenda for increasing public disapproval of the arrogant Jedi Order.
  25. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    I like this, it sounds nice.

    How about an idiom combo?

    Give a drowning Senate enough rope and it'll hang itself.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jul 23, 2013
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