PT Why didn't the Senate question Palpatine's sudden grand army of the Republic?

In Legends EU Yoda goes to Kamino eventually and finds evidence which somehow indicates to him that Sifo made the initial contact. They presume Tyranus to be someone on Sifo's side, i.e. the side of the Republic.

The film uses the same language to describe the timing of both events; they appear to have happened in close temporal proximity to one another. So it stands to reason that if you're dragging one of those events backward on account of TCW, the other one gets dragged along with it.

 

The Jedi are of the mind that Sifo-Dyas had done it, rather than someone posing as him. When they want to Kamino and investigated, the documentation matched up enough for them to accept that. There was nothing to contradict that as far as they could ascertain and as Obi-wan stated, he couldn't sense anything that would raise red flags from them. They concluded that Sifo-Dyas had went off on his own to Kamino and placed the order, then made contact with Tyranus before going to Feluca where he had lost his life en-route. There was no evidence to suspect that he had been anywhere else until his Lightsaber turns up on the one planet where he wasn't supposed to be. When the Jedi investigate, they learn that his being on Obi Dah conflicted with when he had been to Kamino. That's why they start investigating now.

That's why they want to question Dooku once they learn that he is Tyranus. They want to know if he did this before or after he joined the Sith. Prior to then, the Jedi don't see a connection.

Mace doesn't think that Palpatine is a Sith Lord until Anakin tells that he is one. Mace feels that Palpatine has either become a puppet of Darth Sidious, or at the very least, has his own agenda separate from the Sith. Their worst fear is that a Sith Lord could hide in front of them, but they still don't think that Palpatine is Sidious. Hence Mace asks if Anakin was certain of what he was told was the truth and he wasn't somehow mistaken. And even then, the Jedi don't believe that the clones would turn on them because of what they've done so far.

The Jedi believe that Sifo-Dyas had recruited someone that he could trust to help him out. They don't know until later that this Tyranus is Dooku. Before then, they know that Sifo-Dyas had radical ideas about what he felt was going to happen. And that he felt that the Jedi should help convince the Senate to form an army to prevent the visions that he was having. When Tyranus hired Jango and when Dooku hired Jango, there were ten years apart. Enough reason to not think there was a connection between the two. The Jedi believe that the Clone Army was indeed created for the Republic.

The Jedi trust the clones because they're just mere pawns. They're not certain of the Kaminoans because they don't sense anything that would make them believe that they were involved in Sifo-Dyas's death. Later on, they're not sure of their allegiance the Republic or the Confederacy.

But he was recommended by Sifo-Dyas and just because he cover his face, doesn't mean that he is untrustworthy.

They answer Obi-wan's questions because they were told to expect someone from the Jedi Order and assumed that they knew about the Clone Army, because Sifo-Dyas had told them that he had consent of the Senate and the Jedi Council. And because Obi-wan doesn't contradict that notion, they tell them everything that they're supposed to tell them. Except for the bio chip, which they were told to keep to themselves. Obi-wan is told to question Jango because of his involvement in the assassination attempts. But then Mace kills him so that ends that.

Alarm bells wouldn't sound because they would assume that Sifo-Dyas had never gotten to tell them about Tyranus, before he was killed. They still think that he's alive and just assume that Tyranus is an ally since Sifo-Dyas vouched for him. And given how the Jedi have acted during the war, there's every reason to not trust the Jedi and to trust Tyranus.

The Jedi know that the Clonetroopers will disobey orders that they disagree with. This is documented and so if someone were to tell them to eliminate the Jedi, the Jedi believe the clones would disobey that order due to the friendships forged.

Because the clones could disobey orders. The chip ensures that they have no choice but to do so.

Jango Fett was the best of the best. That's why he was hired. The Jedi learn this about Fett and believe that he was recruited for that very reasons by both Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus, as well as by Dooku. If you want the best, then you find the best.

They know that Dooku erased Kamino. They just don't know if he did it as a Jedi or as a Sith. Before finding out he was Tyranus, the Jedi think that Dooku had no clue about the army at first and that he was trying to stop the Jedi from claiming it. Hence erasing Kamino. Later, he has Kamino attacked so that the line of new clones could be destroyed and thus cripple the Republic's war efforts. Now, they learn that he was Tyranus, but they don't know what game he is playing which is why they want to question him.

Obi-wan says that he was under the impression that he had died before then, but he still doesn't know for certain when he reports to the Council. After the initial investigation, the Jedi believe he did do it before he died, but that they didn't go into production until after his death and after the Battle of Naboo. The order can be placed, but unless a DNA provider is present, then the Kaminoans must wait until he shows.

Right, but you're still missing it. It is a fail safe in case the Jedi Order as a whole becomes corrupt. The Kamioans learn of two Jedi who fell to the dark side during the war. That is enough for them to trust Tyranus and not tell the Jedi. Tyranus can spin it that more Jedi are becoming corrupt.

They all have comlinks. They're all tuned to the same frequency that Palpatine uses. Re-watch Order 66. Palpatine contacts Cody first and we see him use a hologram. The clones would hear the message. Then we see Ki-Adi-Mundi's death, but all clones stop. That's because they hear it. Same with Aayla Secura's death and Stass Allie's. Plo Koon and Yoda had holograms, but note that Luminara Unduli was also on Kashyyyk. The clones there would also hear the transmission giving the order. As we saw in TCW, none of the clones even knew about it. Ergo, when they react, they do so because they're all under the same programming.

Ten thousand Jedi Knights during the war, according to Kanan in "Path Of The Jedi". Two to three Jedi per squad and given how they all communicated with each other and such, they knew enough of them.

They're not happy that the army exists, but they're not against clones in general. They have to use the army because the war has begun and the Chancellor has given an order for them to be used.

 

ASK AAK: "The debate is over! Now we need that clone army..."

BAIL ORGANA: "Unfortunately, the debate is not over. The Senate will never approve the use of the clones before the Separatists attack."

MAS AMEDDA: "This is a crisis! The Senate must vote the Chancellor emergency powers! He could then approve the use of the clones."

As we see, the Jedi weren't pushing for it. Bail and Ask were discussing it. They just use it because the army is ready and they don't have time to prepare one that isn't made up of clones.

 

Which comes from Lucas. He was making a point that the Jedi brought about their downfall because they didn't change and adapt. Filoni didn't just pull this out of his ass.

 

You are cherry picking what obi wan says. You are using one thing he says that you want to support your opinion meanwhile ignoring another part of what the says.


it is true that Obi Wan says to the cloners that Sifo Dyas was killed almost ten years ago, he laso says later to Mace and Yoda:

Yes, Master. They say that a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate, almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?

It is clear that Obi Wan is not sure when Sifo Dyas was killed and is looking to Mace and Yoda to tell him if his impression was correct. So when Obi Wan makes the comment to cloners it's clear that it isn't a set in stone, absolute comment. He isn't sure of the exact timing that Sifo Dyas dies, only that it seemed to him it happened before the clones were ordered. His statement that the order was placed almost ten years ago is an absolute comment because it was just relayed to him at the most an hour or two before that at some point during his tour of the facility.

So Obi Wan's comment about Sifo Dyas dying almost ten years ago is not a stand alone comment like you want it to be. There is more context to it later in the movie.

 

The Jedi were victims here, mainly that their arrogance and pride blinded them to what was going on, which the Sith took advantage of. Their inability to adapt and change had rendered them weak and ineffective to deal with the Sith and were easily manipulated by them, as a result.

 

Does this come from the EU that is no longer canon? If so, it is not relevant and it contradicts the film, which says that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered. Plus the timeline, as I understand it from TCW, Sifo-Dyas was killed while Valorum was chancellor, the clone army was ordered after that. Plus, how could Sifo-Dyas have paid for the army? He was a Jedi and as such, no money, at least nothing near enough to pay for this. And the Kamino people only care about money.

Lets' see, he hired Jango using his Sith name, gee I wonder, was he a Sith at the time?
Dooku has known about this clone army for almost ten years while he has been building up the seps. And in all that time he has done nothing to stop or delay the production. Which he could have done since the Kamino people knows him as Tyrannus and takes orders from him. Nor does he try to get this army for himself. Instead the republic gets the army and just in the nick of time so save them from Dooku's army. And the Jedi can't connect the dots???

And no connection? Again simply dismissing Jango's connection with Dooku is stupid and no investigator worth his or her salt would do that. But the plot needs the Jedi to be careless and stupid and so they are careless and stupid.

Really? Let's see.
The Jedi know that Dooku, a Sith, is behind the Clone army. The Jedi have begun to keep a closer eye on the senate, fearing a possible Sith influence. The Clone army works for this very senate.
The Jedi also have begun to suspect that Palpatine is being influenced or controlled by the Sith. So the army the sith ordered is now under the absolute command of Palpatine, that the Sith control. And the Jedi still don't think that the clones could be used against them? Really I am running out of words to describe how idiotic the Jedi are.

First, would a Jedi master lie about something this big? Sifo-Dyas told them he had approval of both senate and the JC when he had neither? This is illegal at best and treason at worst, doesn't sound like the actions of a Jedi.
Second, where in the film is it established that the Kamino people were told to expect a Jedi?
If this is from the old EU then it is no longer canon and doesn't count. Does TCW say anything like this?

Not documented anywhere in the films. If you argue that the audience watching RotS would be aware of this then you have created a plot hole. From a film perspective, the audience have no reason to think the clones are anything but totally obedient and would therefore assume the Jedi think the same way. Thus the Jedi come across as stupid for not considering the possibility that the clones could be used against them.

And this isn't found anywhere in the films so from a film standpoint, the cloning and genetic tampering serve the function of dehumanizing authority very well.
What this mostly seems to me is bad writing. The people making TCW wanted to violate what AotC said and had the clones disobey orders. But having done that they now had a problem with Order 66. So they had to invent an extra mind control device, the biochip. So instead of working with the films, they violated what they said and then had to make up some explanation.

First, the film doesn't establish that Fett is the best of the best or that the jedi think so.
Second, having an assassin or bounty hunter as template for an army isn't the most logical choice. They are soldiers, not assassins. Using a shady character like Jango makes sense however if this army is very fishy and whoever ordered it operates in the shadows. Jango, being a person with questionable morals could be counted on to agree to this if he got paid enough and could also be counted to keep his mouth shut. All of which doesn't sound like something a jedi would go along with.
Third, Jango didn't actually try to kill Padme, Zam did. Why hire the best if the best is then just going to farm out the hit to someone else?

Ok, this doesn't make sense at all. Dooku deletes Kamino despite not having a clue about the clone army being made there? So he likes to randomly delete planets? And he tries to stop the jedi from getting an army he doesn't know about?
Second, simply deleting Kamino will in no way stop the Jedi/Republic from getting the army as the Kamino people will eventually contact the senate/jedi and tell them their army is ready.
Third, so Dooku attacks Kamino in order to stop more clones? Gee I wonder why he didn't do anything like that in the ten years prior to AotC when he was building up his droid army. Even a minor sabotage could slow them down and since he has a man on the inside, this would not be hard to do.
Fourth, so the Jedi think that Dooku has known about the army for almost ten years and not done anything about it and this army just shows up and stops his forces? To quote Sgt Detritus "..if there was a PhD in bein' fick, youse wouldn't be able to find a pencil."

The start of production isn't mentioned by Obi-Wan, he talks about the date the army was ordered, nothing else. According to TCW, Sifo-Dyas died ten or more years ago, the clone army was ordered less than ten years ago. Also it doesn't make sense for Palpatine to order the clone army before he was chancellor.

Your are changing your argument, first it was to deal with single rouge Jedi and now to kill of the whole order?
Two jedi that fell to the dark side during what war? It can't be the Clone war as by then the chips are already in place. There hasn't been a full scale war for 1000 years and the Jedi think that the sith have been dead for that long so is this some war that took place over 1000 years ago?

And two jedi turning =/= the whole Jedi order going bad, this logic makes no sense.
The Jedi order is over 25 000 years old, it would be one of the most stable institutions in the galaxy and the Kamino people would know it.
And again, if the biochip is just there to make sure that the chancellors orders are obeyed, that would be enough. No need to make it this obviously evil.

Lastly, the chip is actually a risk for Palpatine. The clones are with Jedi during combat. If any clone got some damage to his head and needed immediate surgery the chip might be found. The jedi knows that the the clones are genetically altered to obey orders so an extra chip would be fishy.
Or even more fishy than the already fishy things the Jedi already know about but apparently don't bother with.
And a chip could get damaged or removed and thus the clones are not 100% obedient anymore. So a genetic alteration is actually much better as that would be much harder if not impossible to overcome than a chip than be damaged or removed.

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This doesn't answer the problem, namely that the seps can just send guys with robes and lightsabers and start giving orders and the clones will obey. This is a huge flaw with a totally obedient army.
The Clones will only meet a handful of all the jedi this way. No, the far more logical and sensible solution is that the clones have been told in advance the names and faces of all the Jedi. They can't function otherwise. And the cloners on Kamino would know enough to be aware of this.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Addressing Obi-Wan with "After all these years, we were beginning to think you weren't coming" does seem like a hint that they've been expecting a Jedi to come, for a while, and are getting impatient.

They also seem to know about Sifo-Dyas being "a leading member of the Jedi Council".

 

Yeah, I don't think the Kaminoans were going to contact the Jedi. They were probably given strict instructions not to by Dooku.

 

After Dooku's revealed as Tyranus, he claims "I told you everything on Geonosis" and also that Sifo-Dyas was working with him.

Sifo-Dyas's death before the order was placed - doesn't rule out his involvement. Especially since he was removed from the Council for advocating the creation of a clone army.

It could have been a case of years of negotiation with the Kaminoans first.

 

Hmmm.... now this is just my opinion, but, I felt that little tidbit that Dooku throws into it about he told Obi Wan everything on Geonosis is a cue for the audience to realize that Dooku is lying.
While Dooku did mix some truth into his little speech to ObI Wan on Geonosis we know that he was also lying in an attempt to turn/confuse Obi Wan. So I feel by Dooku invoking that scene from AOTC, in TCW, it's a hint to the audience that what he is about to say is also a lie... and that being that Sifo Dyas helped him.

If Sifo Dyas was willing to help, then there was no need to kill him before the ordering is done, they could have let him order it then kill him after and not play the game of "guess who" with the cloners...

edit: and we know from the show, that everything is working out that there was a need for Dooku to steal Sifo Dyas's persona which Valorum's Aide is ready to spill right before Dooku silences him.

 

It's possible. I recall in the last Season 6 episode, Sidious uses an illusion of a corrupt, tied-up Sifo-Dyas to try and lure Yoda to the dark side- when Yoda travels to Moraband.

 

Yeah I just that feeling that Dooku was trying to cover his tracks, that he was still trying to portray himself as that political idealist that was trying to destroy the Sith, which also suggests that the Jedi don't know that Dooku is really Darth Tyranus... That when his secret identity of Tyranus is revealed, he has an "oh ****" moment and tries to do damage control

 

They would likely have reached out to the Republic at some point after the clones were all finished and had been languishing on Kamino for a while.

That's the point. You can't make uncertainty into a certainty.

 

Yes I can, I can be certain that Obi Wan is uncertain, which means Obi Wan's statement to the cloners that Sifo Dyas died almost 10 years ago is not an absolute, which then left TCW to clear it up, which they did.

 

As far as I know TCW leaves the two events in the same degree of temporal proximity.

 

It comes from "Labyrinth Of Evil" and is again referred to in the ROTS novelization. And as we discussed earlier, there was quite a bit the Jedi didn't know about what Sifo-Dyas did. The Jedi think that he couldn't have done it, but the documentation bears that out and later, Dooku claims that he did help him.

DOOKU: "I told you everything you needed to know on Geonosis all those years ago, Kenobi. You should have joined me. Sifo-Dyas understood. He saw the future. That is why he helped me."

As to the funding, before learning the truth, they realize that it had to have come from someone who had money. That being Tyranus.

They do not know in AOTC that Dooku is a Sith, much less that Tyranus is Lord Darth Tyranus. That is why Lucas cut out the word Darth when Jango tells him who hired him.

JANGO: "I was hired by a man called Darth Tyranus."

In cutting that out, they do not think Tyranus is a Sith name and in a universe where people are named Greedo and Elan Sleezebaggo, the Jedi don't think there's anything sinister behind him. From there, Dooku tries to destroy the army as shown in "ARC Troopers". So prior to "The Lost One", the Jedi do not think that Dooku was involved and instead, was trying to sabotage the army. After learning that he is Tyranus, they're still thinking that he didn't want the army. Hence his decision to attack Kamino after the war began. They know of the Jango connection, but they do not understand his reasons and motivations since they're so contradictory. That is why they want to question him.

The Clone Army works for the Jedi. The Senate does not issue orders.

The Jedi also didn't want to believe Dooku.

DOOKU: "The truth. What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith?"

OBI-WAN: "No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware of it."

DOOKU: "The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious."

OBI-WAN: "I don't believe you."

And as I've noted repeatedly, the clones disobey orders. The Jedi believe that they would disobey any order to attack the Jedi. They do not know that they will be forced to via the bio chip.

But it was done, none the less. Sifo-Dyas was considered a radical and his views got him kicked off the Council. That is why he and Dooku had decided to work together, with the former not knowing that he had already been corrupted by Palpatine.

TAUN WE: "Master Jedi, so good to see you. The Prime Minister expects you."

OBI-WAN: "I'm expected?"

TAUN WE: "Of course! He is anxious to meet you. After all these years, we were beginning to think you weren't coming. Now please, this way!"


OBI-WAN: "Tell me, Prime Minister, when my Master first contacted you about the army, did he say who it was for?"

LAMA SU: "Of course he did. This army is for the Republic. But you must be anxious to inspect the units for yourself."

OBI-WAN: "That's why I'm here."

Because the Jedi have no reason to believe that it would happen. Regardless of what happened in TCW, the Jedi trust the clones and they do not believe that Palpatine or the Senate would try to eliminate them. It is arrogance as Obi-wan and Yoda discuss and Palpatine reaffirms.

OBI-WAN: "His abilities have made him... well, arrogant."

YODA: "Yes, yes. It's a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones."


SIDIOUS: "Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda."

And Mace is arrogant to think that he can take Palpatine before he could even attempt anything. Hence going on to his office, rather than going to the communications room and contacting Yoda and Ki-Adi-Mundi.

And yet, he is. That is part of who the Fetts are and well established.

Jango was able to fight a Jedi Knight in battle and prove his mettle against him. Jango's skills as a Mandalorian serve him well. As to Sifo-Dyas, he was willing to go against the Jedi Council and the Code to try and save the Republic.

Because he was going to eliminate Zam to cover his tracks and place the blame on her. That's why when Obi-wan shows up, he tells Boba to close the closet door where his suit is. He had no clue that he was being used beyond this.

No, he knows about the army. The question the Jedi ask is if he knew before or after he turned. They don't know if he was a Jedi when he helped Sifo-Dyas, or if he was a Sith and found out about it after turnin, then tried to hide it from the Jedi, since he couldn't stop them. Once they learn that he was involved, they want to know if he was evil or not. If he was in league with Sidious or not. If he is in league, what is his endgame. Is he helping Sidious, or working against him.

And yet, it was deleted. So the Jedi think that there was a purpose to prevent them from finding it.

That's why the Jedi want to question him. They're confused by his actions.

See above. They don't know what his motivations are and where his allegiances lie.

Why? He knew he would become Chancellor. He knew that he would need the Clone Army to get the war going. He needed to prepare for the war.

I'm not changing the argument. The Kaminoans are lead to believe that Protocol 66 is to prevent the Jedi from turning on the Republic. It could be used on one or two Jedi, or on the entire Jedi Order as a whole. But it is only meant as a fail safe.

It was a fail safe in case the Jedi became corrupt. Such actions happened during the last war, which is why the Sith had grown so large. This is what they're told and why they go along with it. They don't realize that the truth is that it is not about a fail safe, but about springing a trap for the Jedi.

Two Jedi have fell because of the war. Pong Krell had given into his emotions and showed that he was unwilling to act as a Jedi should, which was to think and use compassion. He refused to consider alternate options in trying to take control of the Separatist base on Umberra. He was willing to sacrifice multiple clones on a futile attempt to take the base. Fives and the others told him that they needed to rethink the strategy, but he refused. When they decided to disobey him, he tried to kill them using the dark side. Barriss turned because she saw the war had corrupted the Jedi Order.

BARRIS: "I did it. Because I've come to realize what many people in the Republic have come to realize. That the Jedi are the ones responsible for this war. That we have so lost our way, that we've become villains in this conflict. That we are the ones who should be put on trial. All of us! And my attack on the Temple, was an attack on what the Jedi have become. An army fighting for the dark side. Fallen from the light that we have once held so dear. This Republic is failing. It is only a matter of time."

Which is why Palpatine started the war first, by manipulating the Jedi into finding the Clone Army so that they could launch a first strike. The actions of the two Jedi serve as justification for the Kaminoans to not tell the Jedi that the bio chip exists and that they should know about it. The Jedi are becoming corrupt due to the war. It is not the first time the Jedi have become corrupted and spawned the Sith. Nor the last.

They don't see it as evil. Only as a necessity.

That was the point of "The Unknown", "Conspiracy", "Fugitive" and "Orders". The chip in Tup malfunctioned and resulted in his killing Jedi Master Tiplar. He was taken to Kamino to be examined and Fives learns that the bio chip is there, hidden as a tumor, which is the genetic alteration. Shaak Ti was the only Jedi on Kamino, but she was kept away from Tup and so she didn't know. She, like the other Jedi, were lead to believe that it was a virus. Fives was later killed after Tups died, thus the conspiracy is kept intact. Nala Se tells Dooku that it was an aberration and won't be repeated.

Well, that never happened and so it wasn't an issue. None of them are bright enough to think of that and Dooku would never order such an action.

 

Actually no it didn't, as has been explained before.

Obi Wan's absolute statement that the clones were ordered almost 10 years ago, which is an absolute because we can logically conclude that he was just told that, and isn't trying to go back 10 years into memory, places the clone army being ordered after the events of TPM.

TCW places Sifo Dyas's death before, or at the very latest, during the beginning stages of TPM as it all ties the events to Valorum's administration and not Palptine's.

Both AOTC and TCW are to be taken together, and not as separate stories in separate discussions.

 

We know TPM is at least 10 years before AOTC out-of-universe (because we've seen the timeline - and read the novels, in which Anakin is 9 going on 10 in TPM and 20 in AOTC) - do the movies or serieses say that sort of thing on-screen though?

In Season 6, late in the Clone War (clone helmets have already been revised to ROTS-style) Palpatine says that "10 years ago" Valorum was chancellor. Maybe the gap's been narrowed a bit?

 

I don't have the time to address everything here, but this just 'glowed' at me. You seem to be missing the point. You mention two Jedi turning because of the war. Let me repeat that Two Jedi turning because of the war. So....prior to the war (ie when the clone army is being put together) there is no evidence (for 25000 years) of rogue Jedi. Prior to the two Jedi turning during the war (ie after the clones were ordered and the army assembled) why would the Kaminoans not find it odd that there should be a 'failsafe' designed to kill Jedi?

Oh, and out of interest, who wrote that Barris quote?

 

Except when there were Jedi who turned to the dark side and became Sith. Such as what happened during the last war between the Jedi and the Sith.

Because the Sith were Jedi. One Jedi fell to the dark side. He recruited fifty Jedi and formed the Sith Order. The Sith Order grew and expanded as they took over the Republic.

I did. Taken word for word from "The Wrong Jedi", season five episode twenty.

 

How would the cloners know how many Jedi have ever gone rouge to find the failsafe odd? It's a pretty big leap to assume the cloners would know that...