PT Why didn't the Senate question Palpatine's sudden grand army of the Republic?

It should matter because what good is the evidence if you still don't know the identity of the wargamer whose playing both sides of the war. Besides, there wasn't any time for the Jedi to question or think when the Separatists are already deploying their droid armies upon the galaxy so they have to do whatever it takes to stop this war from spreading any further. Even if it meant using the clone army to end the war.

 

The Jedi lept into war without thought. Mindless dolts. That war only happens because the Jedi are fool enough to play their role.

 

What would you have the Jedi do? Not participate in the Clone Wars? That kind of act will be seen by the senate as treason and they'll accuse the Jedi of siding with the separatists. PalpSidious will take advantage of their misconstrued perception and trick them into giving him permission to initiate Order 66 against the Jedi. The Jedi are not mindless dolts, they're just trapped in quicksand with no escape.

 

The Jedi are not soldiers, not plunging themselves headlong into war is exactly what I would have them do. They actually start the war. They stumble into it like blind fools. With an army that will one day destroy them all. A slave army at that. They have no morals, and no wisdom. They are fools.

The only reason it looks like they don't have any options is because they aren't shown looking for any.

 

PalpSidious started the war, not the Jedi. He conspired with Count Dooku to assemble thousands of battledroids while he pretends to be a Jedi Knight and tricks the Kaminoans into making clone armies of Jango Fett. The Jedi DO have morals and wisdom but for them to not plunge themselves into war will only make things worse for everyone throughout the galaxy. The Jedi were screwed no matter what they've done.

 

The Jedi attacked, without hesitation or thought about the origin of that army. They just cozied on up to it and jumped in head first. Every bad thing that happens after the fact happens because the Jedi are foolish enough to play the role that Palpatine would have them play, even when everything they need to see that things are not right is right in front of them.

They are not soldiers, they had no obligation to act as soldiers.

 

First, Palpatine doesn't need the senates ok to do order 66. Once he has got the extra powers at the latter half of AotC, he could have done order 66 at any time.
What would have been different is that there would have been more alive Jedi and they would not have been as spread out and the initial attack wouldn't have killed as many of them. Sure the Jedi can't fight the Clone army and many would die but I think more of them would have escaped.
But refusing would not have been wise.

What I would have them do is first to dig as deep as they can in all the fishy things around the clone army. Double check the dates, if Sifo-Dyas really was dead when the army was ordered then that proves the order was placed under a false name.
Second, reach out to senators they can trust, build up an alliance with them and gather all the evidence you can.
Third, make preparations for the worst, like moving some of the Jedi to a secret location. Having all of them in the temple makes them vulnerable.
Fourth, limit the number of jedi out in the field. They could "fake" a few deaths and have those Jedi go underground.

But the Jedi could also have done quite a bit between TPM and AotC as well. The way the senate refused to act on the TF essentially declaring war on the republic would have been an alarm clock. They should have taken a greater interest in what was going on in the senate after that.
The presence of large, private armies, would also have been something that would concern them. The TF declared war on the republic and invaded a republic world. Since it seems that the republic has not got any soldiers, what could the senate have done if they had believed Padme?
The TF could just bomb Coruscant if they felt like it.
The TF/Sith connection is also something they could have looked in to. Why where the TF in league with the Sith? Have the Sith been around for all this time and not made any noise?

In the old B5 series, the President is killed at the end of the first season and the vice-President takes over. The good guys suspects foul play but don't have enough evidence to go public yet. So they play along, obey orders and act loyal. But secretly they make new alliances and look for all the evidence they can. They know that they need as much evidence as possible when they go public because they will only get one shot at this.
But once they do go public the President declares martial law and send in the military. Then they decide to stop playing along and make a stand, knowing that if they fail, they will be killed.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

The truth is, there is a great deal they could have been doing instead of just calling themselves Generals and leading slaves into war. They didn't need to be sucked into it without thought.

 

The separatists attacked first when they captured Obi-wan. The Jedi only wanted to rescue Obi-wan (along with Anakin and Padme) without any provocation but Dooku unleashed his battledroids upon them. Even if the Jedi hadn't used the clone army, bad things would still happen to them because PalpSidious has outsmarted them all. They may not be soldiers, but they are the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy but they can't live up to their profession if they do nothing. Their obligation is to protect the people, not leave them in the crossfires of war.

 

Guardians of peace and justice don't act like that

 

The Separatists were breaking the peace and inflicting injustices on the populations of various worlds- result- they needed to be stopped- and ultimately, someone- probably Yoda- decided that the best way to do so was to put the Jedi into command of units of the Republic Army.

 

To me, the movie is the full/short and ONLY version.
I judge a book by what is IN the book, I judge a play based on what is IN the play and I judge a movie based on what is IN the movie.
The reason for this is that books/plays/comics/films etc are meant to be stand alone, independent works of art. Telling a coherent and self sustained story.
I don't know any play that comes with the caveat, "Before watching this play you need to read this book." Nor do I know any books that require you to have watched a film first.
They only exception to this are books/films that are a part of a continuing series. Like the three LotR films were made to be a cohesive whole. So there I judge each film but I will also factor in events from the other films. But not the book. I have read the book before I saw the films but I still judged them based on what was IN the films, not what was in the books.
The "A song of Ice and Fire" is also a case where each book is judged by itself but events from the other books are important.

When it comes to movies, I look at the finished film and what the filmmaker included. If a filmmaker has too much story and not enough time to tell the story and thus leaves unresolved plot points or un-explained events that is something that can bug me. Even if those things are in deleted scenes or spin off books/comics, that doesn't change the problem. If you don't have enough time to tell the story you want to tell, shorten the story.
Lucas doesn't get a "get out of jail free card" here, nor does any other filmmaker.

Ex. in the 09 Star Trek film, one flaw I found was the villain, Nero, was rather flat and one dimensional as a character and his actions didn't always make much sense. People that defends the movie have pointed me towards a comic series that give a lot of back story to Nero, what he did with Spock and why he would feel such rage at Spock. This stuff was interesting but it didn't change my criticism of the movie because all that stuff wasn't IN the movie. I sort of wish that some of it was because I think it would have made the movie better but it wasn't.

If a movie has a plot hole or unresolved plot points or actions that don't make sense or characters that come across as stupid, those problems won't go away just because they are explained in a spin off book, earlier versions of the script, deleted scenes or novelizations. Only what is in the film matters.

Lastly, most filmmakers have only one movie to tell their story and they are judged based on that one movie. Lucas was in a position few other filmmakers would ever be in. He KNEW he could make three films and he could have made them almost any length. I get the impression that there was supposed to be a follow up to "Sifo-Dyas" in RotS but Lucas later changed his mind. It happens and it can explain the unresolved plot point but it doesn't excuse it. The flaw is still there in my opinion.

If RotS was made with the intent that the audience was supposed to know all that EU stuff then we have a plot hole. Information the audience is supposed to be aware of are missing from the film.
If not, then there is no plot hole. But one is justified in assuming that the Jedi did nothing at all about the clone army. Even if that makes the jedi seem a little dumb. But if a filmmaker decides to leave out certain things that show that the characters aren't dumb, then the risk is that the audience sees the characters as dumb.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Without taking a look at this mysterious army. If that was Yoda's call, Yoda should never be in charge of anything.

 

They don't leave people to die either.

 

I seem to recall Yoda saying he must go to Kamino and talk to the Kaminoans, in the movie.

Subsequently, showing up with the army.

 

And I'm sure they gave him the same answers they gave Kenobi, and that clown took that and ran headlong into war! When you really look at what these movies are telling us, it's that Yoda and the Jedi were easily conned into losing everything. They were marks. Unthinking, unquestioning fools.

 

Actually, as far as the AotC movie shows, the seps haven't attacked ANY world. They TALK about attacking the Jedi and force the senate to agree to their demands but they haven't attacked yet. The only thing they have done is tried to assassinate one senator.
What they did or tried to do to Obi-Wan, Padme and Anakin can be justified with that the three were there illegally and were caught trespassing and killed several Geonosians. Their justice is barbaric sure but would be within their rights.

The republic start the war, one might even say the Jedi start the war by their actions in the arena.
Sure the seps were talking about attacking so the Jedi/republic could justify their actions as a pre-emptive strike to stop the seps from attacking.
But the war started any way.
Sure it is likely that the war would have started anyway even if the republic/jedi didn't go to Geonosis but they did start it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

They didn't know who was conning them until it's too late but that doesn't make them fools.

 

Especially if the Kaminoans weren't lying.

 

Not might say, I do say it!

 

It does, it really does. This mysterious army appears just when it was needed most, made from a template of a bounty hunter who was attempting to kill a Senator, hired by a mystery man, who when flushed from the cloning facility heads straight for Dooku and the Seperatists. And that doesn't give these idiots pause? What do they need, to get hit over the head with a giant neon sign saying "Something is not right!".

A child would put that together. And Yoda, the great and wise leader of the Jedi, can't? Come on.

 

Again, the Jedi have already made the connection between Jango, Dooku, the Separatists, and the Clone armies, especially when they all agreed to keep a closer eye on the senate. What they don't know is who is the main architect behind those connections and you keep assuming that they do know but they don't have the same knowledge that we, the audience, have. Just because they don't know that Palpatine is Darth Sidious like we do does not make them idiots.

 

And you think that makes your case? They know the army is connected to the separatists and they lead them into battle? If anything, that's even worse. But I think that kind of makes the point, even in your attempt to defend them you point out the idiocy of their actions.

 

Things would still be worse even if the Jedi hadn't used the clone army nor get involved in the clone wars. Nothing would stop the separatists from deploying their droid armies upon the galaxy and when they do, the senate and the general public would all turn against the Jedi for not being around when they need them. It's like the old saying goes, "Evil will only triumph when good men do nothing" so again, the Jedi were screwed no matter what they do.

 

Let's not make the topic each other.-Mod Edit