PT Why didn't the Senate question Palpatine's sudden grand army of the Republic?

Actually they're quite good examples since you've made my point for me. We don't see them have sex or go to the bathroom but its reasonable to assume that they do.

Obi wan never said, for a fact, that Sifo-Dyas died before the Army was created. He said he thought he had died before it's creation. There is a difference.

Why is the only logical alternative Dooku?

No, according to Obi Wan, he thought Sifo-Dyas was dead when the Army was created.

Addressed above.

Based on the movie, it's ambiguous about whether or not Sifo-Dyas was dead before the Army was ordered therefore he could have something to do with it.

Never tell me the odds. Sorry I had to do it. Seriously though, Jango is supposed to be this amazing Bounty Hunter. If that's the case why wouldn't he be in high demand?

Right, which is why it's reasonable to assume that they conducted some sort of investigation. The only other explanation is to assume that everyone on the Republic side was a complete idiot. I know that's a position some people make and if that is someones argument i'll never be able to convince them. To me it's just more reasonable to assume that they conducted an investigation and found nothing than it is to assume that everyone (Jedi, Senate, Press) were complete idiots.

I can absolutely accept that some people might think that no investigation occurred. That's a 2-way street though. Given that it's not shown or hinted that no investigation took place, you must accept that people might think that an investigation did take place.

 

That was a point of debate, that he concedes the point that the Jedi saw the link between the Clone army and the seperatists. It is perfectly reasonable for me to point that out. You mods are far too quick to get involved

If a person is going to posit that actions they know to be illogical are evidence of logical action by the characters in question, pointing that out is a reasonable tactic in this style of discussion. I made no personal attack, and broke no rule

 

No they are bad examples because there is indirect evidence that they do happen. There is no evidence, direct or indirect that an investigation occurred.
Also, people going to the bathroom isn't really an important plot detail, the clone army and what the jedi think and do about is.

Obi-Wan knows when the army was ordered and when Sifo-Dyas died, we don't know either date.
So what reason do we have to assume he is wrong? None.
So therefore, it is more logical to assume he is right than to assume that he is wrong.
Because to assume he is wrong means ignoring what the films tells us for no reason.
Is it POSSIBLE that he is wrong? Yes. But since we are not given any reason to assume this and plenty of reasons not to, this isn't a reasonable conclusion.

Since we are dealing with the audience assuming things between films, then known Jedi like Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan are not reasonable candidates. If Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered then he is not a reasonable candidate either. That leaves only Dooku.
To assume it was some unnamed/unseen Jedi that did this is implausible. And Palpatine is also out as he isn't a Jedi.

Not really, a character that knows both dates say Sifo-Dyas died before the army was ordered and he is never proven wrong nor do we have any reason to doubt what he says. Neither Yoda or Mace doubt or question what Obi-Wan says or request confirmation. Since we, the audience, later learn that Dooku was the one who hired Jango, what happened isn't hard to figure out. Dooku hired Jango and either he or Palpatine posed as Sifo-Dyas when ordering the Clone army.
Yes the Jedi don't know this but we are dealing with us, the audience, making assumptions about what happens between films. Given what is shown in AotC, everything points to Dooku/Palpatine ordering the clone army. So based on that, the Jedi would at least be able to prove without doubt that Sifo-Dyas didn't do it. In AotC, they already seem to think this.

Where is it established that Jango is this super bounty hunter, better than all others? No one says anything of the sort. Yes he is able to fight Obi-Wan pretty well but that doesn't prove much.
He is probably better than Zam but again that isn't saying much.
Lama Su says "A Bounty Hunter called Jango Fett" Not "The greatest Bounty Hunter in the galaxy, Jango Fett." Besides, being the template for a Clone Army and be a hired assassin aren't really the same thing. The Clone army is just that, an army, so they need soldiers. An assassin isn't really a soldier and what makes a good assassin differs a bit from what makes a good soldier.

But again the problem I have is that IF they did, they would find all manner of reasons to distrust the Clone army and treat it with care. But they don't treat it with care in RotS. They never mention the clone army when talking about removing Palpatine from office, and this was before they found out he was a sith. They never seem to even consider the possibility that the clone army might act against them. Even after Mace learns that Palpatine is a sith, he still doesn't warn his fellow jedi and they all die when the clones turn on them. The clone army turns on the jedi and kills them and the jedi seem totally surprised that this happened. Given all they knew in AotC and all they would have learned from an investigation, they should not have been taken so completely by surprise. Unless they were rather dimwitted.
And this isn't the only instance where the jedi act quite dumb. In TPM it would have been smart to send more than two jedi to capture Maul. The jedi show at total lack of strategy and tactics on Geonosis and flat out stupidity by jumping down, into an arena and letting themselves be surrounded.

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Except that some of the people that argue for an investigation also argue for very specific results from this imagined investigation. Even things that don't really fit the movie. Like Sifo-Dyas really be the one who ordered the army, despite all we learn that suggest otherwise. That Dooku was the one who deleted the Kamino file but this still in no way indicates he had anything at all to do with the clone army.

Lastly, was RotS made with the assumption that the audience should know all this EU stuff?
If yes then I say that we have a plot hole as info the audience is supposed to be aware of is missing from the film.
If not, then it is not a plot hole.
But the available movie evidence points to Sifo-Dyas not ordering the army. If the jedi investigated then they could at least prove that which would give them reasons not to trust the clone army, aside from everything they already know.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

LOL I can see it now. Clone wars & army was an inside job. Palpatine behind it.

 

No, they are good examples because they require you to make a reasonable assumption based on little or no evidence. The importance of the plot detail doesn't matter. I agree that the Clone Army and what the Jedi think and do about it should have been included in the film, but it wasn't. We therefore are left with having to make reasonable assumptions. The poster those examples were for seemed to be making the claim that if it wasn't shown in the films it can't have happened. Thus the bathroom example. It reasonable to assume that they do go to the bathroom based on what we know of human (and many organisms) digestive systems but we can't KNOW given that it is not shown. These examples were directed at a specific individual in order to more clearly understand his argument, so short of him addressing these questions we're just gonna go back in forth with nothing changing or evolving.

I'm not ignoring the film. In the film Obi Wan says he was under the impression. Impression means he thinks but he's not sure. It's been 10 years since Sifo-Dyas died. I highly doubt that Obi Wan has the exact time of his death at the top of his mind.

The problem is the IU characters are not the audience. You may believe that some unseen/unnamed Jedi is implausible, but the IU characters can't because they don't know who did it. To them there are no unseen/unnamed Jedi. Each an every Jedi has a name to them. There are literally thousands of potential suspects.

I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I'm not buying any of your arguments and your not buying any of mine.

Funny cause that seems to be what you are doing too. And quite honestly if I take a position i'm obviously gonna argue for that position. You are gonna do the same thing. Why call out one side and not the other?

 

This is supported by the YA novelization, which has him thinking it was eleven or twelve years before, rather than ten (but also thinking he could have gotten the time wrong).

 

I'll say it again, to not address such a major plot point is a plot hole. It is the very definition of a plot hole. It is not comparable to "we never saw a character go to the bathroom", that is absurd. This was a major part of the story. And what we see are the Jedi acting in completely thoughtless and irrational ways, save for this imaginary investigation found nowhere in the plot of this film series.

It is literally a defining feature of a plot hole

 

No you still miss the point, since there is indirect evidence that proves that having sex and going to the bathroom DO happen, we need not make any assumptions or make stuff up.
The Jedi doing an investigation is not supported by any direct or indirect evidence. Instead it is made up in order to make the characters seem less stupid.

Ex. people have called the empire stupid in ANH for not sending out more TIEs to deal with the X-Wings. And that is a fair point, the DS would have had many more TIEs so why not use them?
However I can just make stuff up like "There was a major accident on the DS, which damaged 98% of the TIEs so they don't have any more available". However I can not prove any of this, it is just something I made up to make the empire seems less dumb.

Apparently he does since when Lama Su mentions him, Obi-Wan is able to give an approximate time of death within seconds.
And really, if Obi-Wan is unsure, how hard would it be to check this? Hell, he could just have asked Mace and Yoda, "I think that master Sifo-Dyas died on feb 12th, 1999, is that right?" If they don't know for sure then simply check their own files. But Obi-Wan doesn't ask for confirmation, nor does Mace and Yoda ask for one. So clearly, we the audience, is supposed to take this to be correct for now. And since it is never proven wrong and we learn many others things that support it, like Dooku hiring Jango, we have even less reason to think he is wrong.

And having a line in AotC where Mace said, "We double checked the dates and you were right, Sifo-Dyas really did die before the army was ordered." Would that really be needed? To me, it would just restate something already established.
However if Mace said, "We checked the dates and you were mistaken, Sifo-Dyas did NOT die until after the order was placed and we have confirmation that he really did place the order." That info would be very needed if you want to convey the info to the audience that it really was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the army.

Bottom line, even IF Obi-Wan was wrong about the dates that still doesn't PROVE Sifo-Dyas placed the order, you still have the other question marks.

Again we are dealing with what we, the audience imagines what happens between films and thus ALL info the audience knows after AotC is relevant. Since we know that Dooku is this Tyrannus and hired Jango and is working with Palpatine/Sidious he is the only likely candidate for deleting the file.
We don't know what the characters think about the deleted file because the whole thing is never mentioned after Obi-Wan leaves. Nor do we know what the Jedi think about Tyrannus because they never talk about him.
Which is why some people are having a problem and are calling the Jedi stupid because they seem to ignore important questions that stare them in the face.

I am explaining why the jedi would have reasons to doubt or worry about the clone army.
You said not investigating is the least reasonable assumption. Not so.
I am giving reasons why, if the jedi did investigate, they would have even MORE reasons to be skeptical about the clone army.
Also, to me, any assumption that requires us to ignore or overwrite movie evidence isn't a reasonable assumption.
Ex. I can assume that Vader isn't Luke's father, Padme cheated on Anakin between films.
But I have zero evidence for this and plenty of evidence speak against it so it isn't a reasonable assumption.

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I am basing my assumption on what is said and established in the film, I don't just ignore the film for no reason. It is the scientific method, don't ignore data unless you have good reason to and try and make your theory fit all the facts.
Either, the Jedi and/or the senate didn't bother doing any further digging into the clone army for what ever reason. Fits all available evidence and isn't contradicted by anything.
Or they did dig further and were able to confirm that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army. Again fits all available evidence and isn't contradicted by anything.
Or they did investigate but were not able to learn anything not already established in the film.
If the first then the Jedi/senate look stupid for ignoring all the questions marks.
If the second, then the jedi/senate look even dumber as they ignore even more question marks.
If the third, then the jedi/senate still don't know who ordered the clone army but keep using it and takes no precautions. Again not very smart.

Assuming that the jedi/senate did an investigation and found out that Sifo-Dyas really DID order the clone army has problems. It requires me to ignore or overwrite movie evidence for no reason. It also requires me to make several unwarranted assumptions and leads to even more questions. If Sifo-Dyas really ordered the clone army, how did Palpatine/Dooku find out about it? How come Jango has never heard of him?
Why didn't Sifo-Dyas mention this to Mace or Yoda and or anyone in the council? How could he have paid for it?
In short it creates more questions than it answers and thus is a less than satisfactory solution to me.

But I would have been satisfied by a few lines in AotC from the jedi about looking into the clone army and a few comments in RotS.

And if the idea was for Sifo-Dyas to have ordered the army, why have lines that directly contradict it? Simply have Obi-Wan say Sifo-Dyas died 8 years ago and no problem.

Lucas said something that there would be a follow up to Sifo-Dyas in RotS but that didn't happen.
So we are left with an unresolved plot thread. This is a fair criticism of the movie as something is set up but is not given any pay off. It can also make the Jedi seem stupid. I doubt Lucas intended this but that can happen when you don't follow up on plot threads.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Firs, does this book have Obi-Wan ask Yoda for confirmation of the dates? If he doesn't ask Yoda about this when making his report then Obi-Wan comes across as a bit stupid. He has Yoda right there but doesn't ask?
Second, to me it makes it even more unlikely that Sifo-Dyas did this? If he died 11-12 years ago and the army was ordered less than ten years ago, the gap is now over a year between these events. If the death of Sifo-Dyas and the ordering of the army is less than a month apart, it is somewhat reasonable that Obi-Wan could be mistaken. But if there are several years between them?
Third, Obi-Wan thinks that you could conquer the republic with a million soldiers?
How weak is the republic? A million soldiers would not be enough to conquer Earth, how can it be enough to conquer thousands if not millions of planets?
That is like ten soldiers per planet.
And why the focus on foot soldiers, in space wars, having powerful ships is rather more important. If you can blow up the enemy ships before they can land their troops, those soldiers are of no use.

And again, if the idea was to establish that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army, why are Obi-Wans lines even IN the film?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Samuel Vimes is on point

 

Not exactly- it simply repeats the lines in the movie:

Obi-Wan: "They say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones almost ten years ago. I was under the impression that he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
Mace: "No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council."
Yoda: "Into custody, take this Jango Fett. Bring him here. Question him, we will."
Obi-Wan: "Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him."

and ends the scene there, as the movie does, leaving open the "adult AoTC" version where, after that scene, Yoda and Mace discuss finding out when the Order was placed:

Mace: "A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. "Why would Sifo-Dyas-"
Yoda: "When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said, and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.

The idea of Obi-Wan thinking that it was 11-12 years, is to establish how far out his "impression" actually is, from the real date of slightly less than 10 years.

 

It's very possible that they questioned for a long time where the army had come from, but since Palpatine had everyone manipulated, they tended to not go their.

 

The later lines of dialogue make little sense. They have just been told by Obi-Wan that Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the army was ordered. They would know when Sifo-Dyas died but would have no idea when the army was ordered, beyond what Obi-Wan just told them.
So why would they think Sifo-Dyas placed the order when they have just been told it wasn't him?

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That isn't the impression I got from those lines. Obi-Wan says less than ten years but thinks it is longer even though he is unsure. So the time gap is quite significant. And if it was 11-12 years ago, it would have been before the events in TPM and him becoming a Knight. This would make it easier to remember, if Obi-Wan remembers that he was just a Padawan when he heard about Sifo-Dyas that makes it over ten years ago, and since he thinks more than that, this seems likely. If he heard about Sifo-Dyas when he was a knight then that places it after TPM and less than ten years ago.

But since he never bothered to double check, I guess he wasn't so unsure after all.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Still not seeing the issue. While concerted investigation was never shown, we see the Jedi state or attempt to inquire further as to the origin of the clone army (by ordering Obi-Wan to apprehend him) and to the possibility of Darth Sidious's manipulation of the Senate ("We need to keep a closer eye on the Senate").

We can all play armchair quarterback to indicate when and where the Jedi erred. Of course they erred, spectacularly so -- that's how Palpatine beat them. But the order's involvement in the debacle at Geonosis wasn't entirely without justification. Obi-Wan pursued a dangerous suspect to the planet, whereupon he was attacked by droid forces (relayed to the Jedi Council and Chancellor Palpatine via hologram). This, in addition to Obi-Wan's reports that Dooku's hodgepodge of commerce guilds were going to threaten the Republic with outright force (remember Dooku's line: "We'll have the mightiest army in the galaxy. The Republic will be overwhelmed"), absolutely justified the Jedi order -- the only known defense for the unarmed Republic -- to preempt a full-fledged attack by the Separatists.

With respect to Yoda's intervention at Geonosis, he had prior knowledge of Obi-Wan's capture and Dooku's threat. That Mace bungled the rescue lent even more credibility to his intercession. That he used the clone army to do it wasn't a moronic decision: it was a completely practical one. When threatened by an incredibly dangerous group of well-armed dissidents led by an apostate Jedi, a powerful army allegedly created by a prominent Jedi Knight for the unarmed Republic's use would likely be a better tool for defense than strong language and stern looks -- which was pretty much the Republic's only other recourse given Mace's own admission earlier in the film that the Jedi alone were insufficient to retain galactic peace.

Jango's involvement with Dooku and Kamino might have been curious, but the man was a bounty hunter: a mercenary. He had no specific allegiance and, considering the wealth of Dooku and his sycophants, it's not at all surprising or farfetched to believe that a mercenary of Fett's repute would work for both sides. That's what mercenaries do.

As far as the Jedi abstaining from the war is concerned, that would fly in the face of their role as "guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic," would it not? But even if that were a considered option, that went out the window with the involvement of Dooku and Obi-Wan. One, a renegade seemingly leading the opposition and the second, a loyal acolyte endangered by the mission the order sent him on to begin with.

The bottom line is that the desperate Jedi were presented with the only viable option to end the threat corralled by one of their ex members that threatened not only one of their number (Obi-Wan), but the Republic at large. And they seized the opportunity with the most powerful and convenient line of defense at their disposal, despite their efforts to query further as to the nature of its existence.

To recap:

* They made attempts to investigate Fett, the Kaminoans, and the clone army
* They vowed to keep a closer eye on the Senate for sign of the Sith's involvement
* They acted cautiously, seeking to obtain further information through investigation, interrogation, and espionage (largely by way of Obi-Wan)

In short, they acted reasonably.

Were they wrong? Sure. Did they screw up? Definitely. But the notion that they were morons, retards, idiots, or whatever is absolutely indefensible.

 

Where I find the idea of the Jedi being "morons" indefensible is that it presumes that the Jedi themselves should have conducted the primary investigation into the clone army. I think this is an absurd proposition. The Jedi, as of the end of AOTC, are the military leaders of an army engaged in a galactic-scale conflict. And this is not a desk job. We see the Jedi lead from the front lines and take missions on far-off worlds. Missions that keep them away from Coruscant for months at a time (if Anakin and Obi-Wan's experiences are at all reflective of the Jedi's involvement in the war). Obi-Wan himself is a Council member and yet he's been away from Coruscant for months, to say nothing of the rank-and-file Jedi.

The Jedi answer to the Senate, but they are by no means the only governmental structure or department in place. I think it's frankly silly to expect them to have conducted a thorough investigation into the clones when they are battling the Separatists. It would be equivalent to asking a commander on the ground in Afghanistan to conduct investigations into the hiring of military contractors. He can offer some insights, to be sure, but he doesn't have the time, energy, or resources to sort the matter out.

If anything, the Senate would appoint a committee to look into it, perhaps with some Jedi cooperation (which may be why the Jedi stated they would try to keep a closer eye on the Senate), but I just don't see how this is a plot hole, personally, especially since their two main leads (Sifo Dyas and Jango) are currently dead and Tyranus is actually Dooku.

 

They have just been told that Obi-Wan is "under the impression" that Sifo-Dyas was killed before "almost ten years ago".

Obi-Wan doesn't ask them to clarify whether his "impression" is correct- just whether the Council authorized the creation of the army. And they tell him that the Council did not.

 

But Mace and Yoda don't know when the army was ordered. Say Sifo-Dyas died 9 years and 11 months ago and they know that. If the army was ordered 9 years and 9 months ago then it is impossible for Sifo-Dyas to have done it.
If they consider the possibility that Sifo-Dyas could have done it, like Yoda saying "When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said, and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died."
Why didn't they just ask Obi-Wan to give them an exact date for the ordering of the army? He knows the date as he report an approximate time.

If they just doubt Obi-Wan words or want specific dates, why didn't they ask him? They just talked to the guy. He tells them that as far as he knows Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the army was ordered, he doesn't ask them to confirm some date and they never demand some proof of why he thinks this. They seem to accept what he says. But a few seconds later they start talking like they doubt what he says and that he is probably wrong.
Why?

Also starts to ask WHY Sifo-Dyas would do this but Yoda says a timeframe would answer that. Again this doesn't make sense, Mace was talking about MOTIVE, not a timeframe. Even if they learn that the date the order was placed was before Sifo-Dyas death, that doesn't answer the question Mace asked. It doesn't tell them anything of WHY Sifo-Dyas did this. At best it says that it was possible he could have done it.
Besides, they know Sifo-Dyas, as he sat on the council with them so based on that they could wonder if he was the type of person that could do this.
What Sifo-Dyas did was illegal at best and treason at worst, is this really the sort of actions of a Jedi Master? How could he have paid for this? Why didn't he breathe a word of this to the council?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

First you forget that the Jedi DID quite a bit of investigating in AotC all by themselves and without any involvement by the senate.
Second, you make this investigation into this huge thing that would require thousands of people and millions of man hours. Not so.
One very simple thing the Jedi could have investigated at the end of AotC or even during AotC, is the dates.
Was Sifo-Dyas really dead when the army was ordered? Sifo-Dyas death is in the files and Obi-Wan knows when the army was ordered and if they want to be very thorough, they could simply contact Kamino and ask them. This would take one person maybe 30 min.
Based on the film, the result would be a confirmation of what Obi-Wan said, Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army so they KNOW it was ordered under a false name.
Third, knowing this, in addition to all the other things the Jedi knows, they would treat the clone army with some suspicion and be careful around them. It would be unwise to flat out refuse command at the end of AotC. But in RotS the jedi seem to think that the clone army is no threat what so ever. They never mention them as a factor when trying to deal with Palpatine or act against the senate. Given that they know this army was ordered under a false name, THAT behavior is stupid. And when the clones turn of the jedi, they act totally surprised and die thinking "Oh my god, how could this have happened, I never saw it coming." Sorry with all you knew, you should not have been taken so totally by surprise.
Fourth, even if there was an investigation and it turned up nothing they already don't know from AotC, that would still be enough to be cautious with the clone army and not trust them so completely the jedi seem to do in RotS.
Fifth and finally, to me, we only have a plot hole is RotS was made with the intent that the audience should know all this EU stuff, like it really was Sifo-Dyas etc. Then knowledge the audience is supposed to be aware of is missing from the narrative, and that is a plot hole.
If the audience is supposed to think no investigation took place or if it did, it didn't uncover anything new, then there is no plot hole.
But as I've said, the jedi have an army with a great deal of question marks over it. If they didn't investigate or the investigation answered none of their question, the those question marks remain. And thus they should be more careful with the clone army but they aren't.
And this, to me, makes them dumb, and it weakens the tragedy of their deaths.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Why would "him reporting an approximate time" indicate that he knows the exact date?

 

And why do they allow themselves to become the military leaders of this army that they should know something isn't right with in the first place? They are not soldiers, but they just rush into war and start playing General. They should see the connection between that army and Dooku, it's their own investigation into the assignation attempt into Padme that leads them to both that army and the Separatists on Geonosis, the link should be clear to anyone with half a brain. Why do they go play General with them?

They are not soldiers, they were not generals. They chose to play that role. Because this story makes no sense, and at face value these characters are idiots. Worse than idiots, I can't believe they are real people making these decisions. It's just not a story that makes any sense. It requires re-writes from the fans, and from the writers of books. In these re-writes, the Jedi actually give these clues that are literally in front their noses thought. It's in threads like these that the story involves investigations. In the film series, they rush headlong into war like braindead dolts without pause or thought. Hey, want to be General! Great!!!

I'm sure people will tell me it was their duty, which of course is not rooted in the film, that army did not exist. The Jedi had no obligation to lead it. How can they have an obligation to lead a thing that did not exist? The army was something new, something that they needed to write into law just to give their galactic government the power to wield it in the first place. The whole point of the military creation act was to grant the government the power to raise an army. How can the Jedi have an obligation to this newly created army, when they were never soldiers to begin with?

 

The Jedi don't start fighting in the war until the end of AOTC, though.

And, yes, an investigation like this could very well take a long time and a lot of man hours. Two of their main leads -- Sifo Dyas and Jango Fett -- are dead. The Kaminoans aren't exactly up-to-date on what's going on in the galaxy and if Dex's words are true, they prefer to keep to themselves. There's this Tyranus fellow to look for and there might be a money trail to follow, but it's by no means going to be easy to find or untangle. And the Jedi, quite frankly, have enough on their plates as it is.

The Jedi don't know that Sifo Dyas didn't order the clone. Obi-Wan isn't sure if he died and even he did, he might have requested an intermediary place the order in his name before death. Nothing's certain. There's also the fact that the other people involved in placing the order are either dead or missing. And this wouldn't necessarily take 30 minutes -- if someone had impersonated Sifo Dyas -- or they altered records of the order, this could take quite a while, actually. Because while the audience knows that the Sith are behind the order of the clones, the Jedi don't know that, and given that Dooku used to be a Jedi, he would have had extensive knowledge of the Jedi's practices, which would make Sifo Dyas' involvement something easier to fake.

Also, the Jedi may be Jedi, but they're also human. They've fought and died with the clones. As Anakin and Obi-Wan show, they've developed some fondness for them -- even wanting to go back to save them when they're in trouble. They see them as individuals and give them names to reflect that. It's very difficult -- especially after three years of fighting side by side together -- to maintain the level of suspicion required to not be caught off guard by Order 66. Because it was a sudden and complete betrayal and even in the Force, the Jedi had no warning. To be honest, I think it's to the Jedi's credit that they see the clones more as people than as ticking time bombs waiting to kill them. That doesn't mean they weren't suspicious, but after three years of camaraderie, it's only human that that suspicion would be eroded.

Additionally, do you forget that the Republic has an entire bureaucracy in place? The Jedi aren't the only people in the Republic who can investigate the army. And given their current role of leaders in the war, they shouldn't be. There's a reason governments across the world divide their militaries (army, navy, intelligence services, etc.) and it's quite a simple one -- no one can do it all. Having the Jedi be the primary investigators of the army is absurd given the enormity of their task. There's no reason that the Senate couldn't and wouldn't appoint a committee or another division of the government to look into it. That is quite frankly the most logical thing to do, rather than pile every important job on the overwhelmed Jedi whose numbers have already begun taking a hit after the battle of Geonosis.

 

Because the Jedi have sworn allegiance to the Senate and the Senate has just authorized its leader to permit the use of a clone army. It's do or die by that point. The Jedi see it as their duty to defend the Republic and it is -- they're tasked with keeping peace and order in the galaxy. And without the clones, the Jedi will be overwhelmed and the Republic overrun by Separatist forces who can then force the Republic to agree to any of its demands.

They're tragic mistake is to become generals, but they did not do so freely -- they did what they felt was necessary to protect the Republic. And the link between the clone army and the Separatists (that Jango Fett is working for them ten years apart) is not enough of a concern when there's an army already at their doorstep. I haven't read any of the books so I can't comment on them, but based on the films, it's clear that the Jedi were put between a rock and a hard place.

Everyone knows that the Jedi are tasked with the Republic's security -- Dooku himself mentions that with their droid army, the Jedi will be overwhelmed. And when the Senate approves the clones, the Jedi are bound by duty to assist them.

You say the Jedi should have refused to play general. Well, what then? Do you think that would go over particularly well with either the Senate or the populace? You think that Palpatine wouldn't take advantage of the fear and desperation of the situation to scapegoat the Jedi and have them murdered? Maybe not immediately, no, but every loss that the Republic suffers could easily be blamed back on the Jedi.

That, and perhaps the Jedi felt it was their duty to try to prevent as many of the Republic's citizens from being killed as possible. And that the clones would have a better chance with the Jedi on their side.

 

The first two films show us very clearly the manner in which the Jedi serve the republic, and it makes it clear that they are not soldiers. That is not their role in that society. I see no reason to pretend like it was. They were not generals. They were not soldiers. They chose to blindly fall into those roles, despite what was right in front of their noses about the connection between that army, this crisis, and Dooku. Either Lucas didn't write a very believable story, or he wrote one in which we are meant to come away thinking the Jedi may be some the most unthinking characters ever put on film

 

Honestly, you are questioning Lucas as a writer? that's blasphemy pal. They really had no other option. Who was going to lead the army? The Admirals and Captain's like Tarkin weren't even ready when the war started. Don't create plot holes when they clearly don't exist, and don't make up a bunch of issues on things that should have NO QUESTIONING whatsoever.

 

I'm not questioning him, I'm coming right out and saying it. The story completely falls apart when it comes to the Jedi's role in this crisis.

They had plenty of options, thinking would have been a great place for them to start