PT Why didn't the Senate question Palpatine's sudden grand army of the Republic?

No it didn't. What other options did they have?

 

I don't disagree that in TPM (and in general) that the Jedi were meant to play a more peacekeeping role, with any violence they engaged in equatable to police action more than military. But I do think AOTC shows that the Jedi are expected (whether fairly or not) to see to the Republic's defense. The crawl states that the Senate is voting on an army to assist the overwhelmed Jedi -- not replace. There's clearly an expectation that the Jedi are going to continue to serve even if an army is instated. Further, there's Dooku's comment on how "we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed." This implies that the Jedi are presumed to be the main force that the droids will confront and that they will stand up and fight. Dooku used to be a Jedi, so one would think that he would know. And the Jedi have sworn allegiance to the Senate -- that doesn't mean that they get to pick and choose their missions, unfortunately.

Plus, you're creating a false dichotomy. You may only see two options -- an unbelievable story or unthinking characters, but I think the Jedi did the best they could in a terrible situation. They tried to protect the Republic and did the best they had with the resources offered. Their biggest mistake, in my opinion, was forming such close ties to the Senate in the first place and not pushing strongly enough to restore diplomacy.

But that doesn't diminish the tragedy of their deaths -- they were betrayed by their country who used and killed them. Some, such as Palpatine, did so knowingly and willingly while others (such as many in the Senate) allowed themselves to be led along like sheep. Regardless, though, the Jedi in no way deserved what happened to them.

 

Rather than plunging into war, they could have stepped back and looked at what was happening. They should stood apart from the war, and held true to the ideals of being guardians of peace in the first place. They did not need to become soldiers in the first place. The Republic would defend itself with or without them. Why does an army need Jedi?

 

It is what it is, I can't help my assessment of these characters. I see no logic in this story when it comes to the Jedi. It's not about what they deserve, these are fictional characters. And their illogical actions are a reminder of just how fictional they are, it's not a well put together story

 

Because the clones have no experience. They've been born and trained to fight, true, but they have never left Kamino, never been to the Republic's planets on which they'll be expected to fight. Having someone on the ground who has been to that planet before, who has engaged with the locals and has some understanding of its functioning is invaluable. The Jedi handled missions across the Republic and already have a hierarchical structure in place to delegate tasks. They're perfectly situated to lead the clones.

Not to mention what the populace would think. When things got difficult, the Jedi back out. What does their allegiance to the Senate mean then?

And Palpatine controls both sides of the war -- give the Separatists enough information and the clone army is going to have a hard time. Who, then, do you think is going to take the brunt of the blame in such a situation?

 

And what military training do the Jedi have? They are not soldiers, how are they a better option than clones born and bred for military service? Not to mention, the Republic has a countless population, why does this service fall automatically to the Jedi? And why would guardians of peace be so quick to stumble into this mess?

A child could have seen the link between that army and the separatism plot. They dance on the strings of Palpatine's puppet show without an ounce of thought or pause. Terrible writing.

 

Yeah, sure they could have stepped back. What would the Senate have thought of them then at that point? That they were a bunch of cowards? Their perception on the eyes of Republic would have completely fallen apart. They didn't have a chance to ''step back'' and look at things. Obi-Wan was already going to be executed in the arena. Not only that but an entire Separatist droid army was ready for battle. What options did they have? They had to either deploy the army or be in some serious problems. And who else was going to lead the army in the first place? They couldn't just leave it up to a group of Clone troopers they could not trust because they had never been in battle before. The Yularen's and Tarkin's didn't even exist at that point. Sure they were ''keepers of the peace'' But when it came to a war like this one, they had little option but to lead the army into battle.

Stepping back and trying to figure out about the army would have been a dead end. Not only are Sifo Dyas and Jango Fett dead, but going directly towards Count Dooku would have drawn them into the war in the first place. And if you would have read ''Labyrinth of Evil'' you would have found out that the Jedi had tried to investigate the matter, but all the clues they had left them to a dead end. What other option did they have anyway?

And anyway, once Tarkin and the other guys start to actually LEAD the war, the Jedi still remain as generals for the most part because they are in a very delicate situation. They can't just simply step back, due to the fact that it would make the military even more powerful, and that would put Palpatine in an even greater pedestal.

If you ask me, the Jedi were put in a ''loose-loose'' situation. Whichever way they would have taken, would have lead them to terrible consequences.

 

If they don't have the backbone to make tough decisions, they shouldn't be in charge of an army. They shouldn't be in charge of anything.

 

Oh really? Did you not know that Palpatine and the Sith had clouded the dark side in order to not allow the Jedi to see what was actually going on? How would they have known that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person, when they had no evidence to support that claim until it was too late?

Of course it was all very mysterious to the Jedi, but they had no reason to think that Palpatine had been manipulating everything. His entire act was that of a charismatic, good man, and they couldn't use the Force to see what he was thinking.

My friend, to say that a ''child'' could have figured out that your very nice and friendly Chancellor is also leading the other government of the galaxy in order to make himself Emperor is preposterous, not to mention insane.

 

What decisions could they make? They could have either allowed the Separatists to have taken control of the war early on or actually fight to preserve democracy. It's those types of moments that forced the Jedi to set their ideals aside and do what was needed.

 

They don't need the force to see that something si wrong with that army or that situation. And they didn't need to no that it was Palpatine behind it to know that that army and Dooku were linked. Their own investigation into Padme gave them enough information to question that. This isn't about the Force, this is about making connections a child would make.

Their own investigation into Padme shows the link! And what do these clowns do? They saddle up and rush into war with that army.



Edit: resonding to your second post. You stated that the opinion of the Senate was a reason why the Jedi would act like they do, as if that should be there concern. If they don't have the backbone to make that call, you wouldn't want them running a hotdog stand let alone anything important.

 

The Jedi aren't soldiers, no, but they do function as a peacekeeping force -- so they do have an idea of what it means to employ necessary violence in the line of duty. As soldiers, I'm not saying they're better than clones, but as leaders, they provide invaluable services to the clones because the Jedi have been all across the galaxy serving the needs of the Republic for years. The clones are trained to fight, yes, but they've never been on a planet besides Kamino and having someone on the ground who can assess the situation from the local's as well as the Republic's perspective is invaluable. Also, given that the Jedi have abilities beyond that of an ordinary warrior, they don't need to be babysat by the clones.

The connection between the Separatists and the army is one individual -- Jango Fett who was a mercenary bounty hunter that was killed before he was questioned. We also get into the question of motive. If one believes the Separatists are behind the clone army, then one has to discern a rationale for why they would give the Republic an army when they have their own in place and ready to overrun. And it had better be a damn good reason, too, because without the clones, the Separatists have won the war.

 

It's not only the opinion of the Senate, it's the political power these guys have. The Jedi's image to the public could turn completely around, and that would only multiply their enemies and their adversaries, making it easier for the Sith to take control. That's something the Jedi would only do if they were fools.

Yeah, and as far as the investigation with Padme goes, it shows NO LINK whatsoever. Obi-Wan found out that Jango Fett was a bounty hunter who had been ordered to murder Amidala by Nute Gunray. At the same time, Gunray and a series of other corporate leaders were signing an allegiance to Dooku in for the CIS to have a strong economy and military force. Jango Fett happens to work for both the Separatists and the Republic, as he was the ''original'' specimen to which the clones came from. We know from the Kaminoans that Sifo Dyas had ordered the creation of the army in secret, and we learn from Fett that he had never heard of Dyas and was hired by Tyranus.

What link exists?

 

He must have been told a date when the army was ordered as he says exactly that.
He doesn't give a specific date, probably because the SW films don't have an established date system.
But he was told that a Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army and this was done at the request of the senate and Obi-Wan was told when this happened. He also knows when Sifo-Dyas died as he mentions this twice in the film.
If they wanted to learn the exact date, they could have asked Obi-wan directly. If they had, either he would have told them the exact date or he would admit he doesn't know. If the latter then he is an idiot for jumping to conclusions. If he wasn't sure of either date he would have asked Mace and Yoda for confirmation of the date Sifo-Dyas died and told them that he only knows an approximated date for the order. But he didn't. So based on this we are clearly meant to take away the idea that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

That's a pretty big assumption.

What's wrong with the notion that the Kaminoans told him "Nearly ten years ago"?

And what's wrong with the novel approach, which has him acknowledge the possibility to himself that he could have gotten the times mixed up?

Yoda & Mace's first priority seems to be "Tell him to arrest Jango" - who ordered the clone army, is secondary.

 

Yes. Honestly, one of the things that they could have done better in Ep II and III is to make the Separatists' more of threat. Yes, they would've killed a Senator and two Jedi and that would have been a messy matter (no pun intended), but other than that I guess I never really felt that feeling of "If-we-don't-use-this-random-clone-army-we-are-all-going-to-die" feeling. I never really felt that the fate of the galaxy was literally on the balance. If they had made it clear that the Senators were scared for their jobs and everyone else was scared for their lives, I would've understood better the reasoning behind utilizing a massive army that magically came out of no where.

It's kinda like seeing a bug on the wall, and there's nothing to kill it immediately. Then suddenly someone gives you a rock, and you are so afraid of the bug going away and rampaging your home that you smack it with the rock. It kills the bug, but also dents the wall behind it. If you had thought about it a little more and made a more rational decision instead of going by a rash, hysterical one, you would have eliminated the threat and not damaged the wall as well. The same with the GAR. The Senators and everyone else is flipping tables in hysteria. A clone army shows up and everyone's too freaked out to wonder where they all came from, and if they might have a hidden, shrouded reason for being there. They decide to use it ASAP. The army kicks some butt and gets the job done, but it leaves a lasting mark. No more Jedi, no more Senate, not more Republic. Instead, a dark-side ruled Empire.

 

The Jedi do are told by Obi-Wan that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed. Checking the date Sifo-Dyas died would not be difficult, it should be in their own files and if Obi-Wan knows, so would Mace and Yoda. Checking the other date also isn't hard as Obi-Wan found that out after couple of hours on Kamino. They could just ask Obi-Wan, when was the order placed and he would tell them.
So the intent of the movie is pretty clear, since Obi-Wan is never proven wrong nor are we given any reason to doubt him, we are to take his statements to be true until further notice.

Sifo-Dyas involvement might have been able to fake but since Obi-Wan is quickly able to see through it by noting that the order was placed AFTER Sifo-Dyas was dead, we, the audience, are clearly meant to think that this army was ordered under a false name.
If not, why have Obi-Wan say the things he says?
If AotC was trying to tell us that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army then it did a frankly crappy job of that.

No, the film is pretty clear here, the Sith are behind the army and Sifo-Dyas had nothing at all to do with it. And this is something the jedi seem to be aware of at the end of AotC and it would not take long to at least double check the dates and confirm this.
Then the jedi would indeed KNOW the army was ordered under a false name.

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But again, if the senate DID an investigation and it found out NOTHING new. Then all the problems remain. The army is ordered under a false name and they don't know who did it. Their archives have been tampered with and they don't know who did that either. They have no idea who this Tyrannus is, who paid for the army or why it was even ordered. In short they are left with as many questions as after AotC and they would then still not trust the clones.
It would be like a murder mystery, the cops knows the has been a murder and has some leads and investigates. But after six months they have not been able to find the guilty party. But does that mean that they forgot there was a murder in the first place? No and why would they?
The problems of the clone army would only go away if an investigation by the jedi/senate were able to disprove many of the things we are told in AotC. No Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army, Obi-Wan doesn't know what he is talking about. Sifo-Dyas was the one who hired Jango, he just used the alias Tyrannus when going to the moons of Bogden. And so on. But nothing at all in the films indicate this.

About Human nature, this can also be very skeptical and suspicious and hard to let go of old grudges and past betrayals. Look at the red scare in the US in the 50's, that took a long time to get over.
Or take Obi-Wan, who warns Anakin not to trust Padme as she is a politician. And the jedi have worked for the senate for a lot longer than three years.
The Jedi also trusted Dooku, as he used to be one of their own but got badly burned from that.
Prior to TPM the jedi were sure that the Sith were dead and gone but they were proven wrong.

Besides, the Jedi know that the clones can not choose to be loyal, they only obey commands. They know that a single command from Palpatine would make each and every clone try to kill them. Also, they are talking about removing Palpatine from office and disbanding the senate and yet the clone army is somehow not a factor in this? The clone army is loyal to the senate and to Palpatine, if they act against him, they must know that the clone army will respond in some manner. But again they just seem to forget about it. Even if they trust the clones they would not ignore the fact that Palpatine can command them. And if they stage a coup against him and the senate, the clone army will get involved. Why don't they realize this?
If they figured that they could get the clones on their side then that is something that should also have been mentioned.

Bottomline, based on the evidence from the film, Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army and the jedi seem to think this after AotC and it would not be hard for them to confirm this. So since we aren't told that the situation has changed, we must assume that the same still applies in RotS. The clone army was ordered under a false name and the jedi know it.
If the intent was that we should know that this was no longer the case then we have a plot hole.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

If I had to choose between "Lucas's writing has plot holes- which he partially fixes in novelizations" and "The Jedi are intended to be incredibly foolish, trusting a clone army that they know was probably created on Dooku's orders" - I'd prefer the plot holes.

Of course, there may be other possibilities.

 

Often in Darth Plagueis, it was brought up that the Jedi were already a military force, so to force other planets to demilitarize was unfair/corrupt on the Republic's part. That's one of the many reasons Dooku left. As for Sifo-Dias, he was convinced by Plagueis to have a 'reserve' clone army. So my theory is that the general public already thought that the Republic had an army (The Jedi) and the Clones are simply viewed as a necessary extension or 'supplies' for that army.

 

I'm gonna ignore your arguments concerning this now. The orginial questions were directed at a specific individual in order to nail down their argument that if it doesn't happen on film you can't assume it happened. If you don't like the questions that's no skin off my back.

Now who's making things up. Please point me to the scene where Obi Wan states the time of death within seconds.

Your argument seems to be that your assumptions are right and mine are wrong. That your assumptions are reasonable and that mine are not reasonable. If that's your argument fine. I can live with that. But if that is the case then I see no point in continuing this back and forth conversation in which we keep making the same argument using different words.

Understandable, which is why it's, in my opinion, it's reasonable to assume that an investigation took place.

Good thing that's not what i'm doing.

Nor do I despite your opinion.

So would I but it wasn't so we're left in the position we're in.

 

Right here;

Lama Su mentions Sifo-Dyas and almost right away Obi-Wan is not only able to say that he is dead but also the approximate time of death. It is rather impressive that not only can Obi-Wan remember dead members of the council but he also remembers when they died.

No my argument is simply this, I take what is established in the films as correct until proven otherwise. In ANH we hear Tarkin report that the senate has been disbanded. Despite not seeing the senate get dissolved I still take Tarkins statement as being correct until I have reason to believe otherwise. Both Owen and Obi-Wan say that Luke's father is dead in ANH and that was also something I took to be correct until I had reason to think otherwise. ESB put this in question and RotJ showed that Owen and Obi-Wan were in fact wrong/lying. But just from ANH it is not reasonable to assume that Luke's father is alive since several people say he is dead.

In this case, we have a person that knows when Sifo-Dyas died and knows when the clone army was ordered, and he says that Sifo-Dyas was killed BEFORE the army was ordered. Since we don't know either of these dates, I take that as actually being the case until I have reason to think otherwise. Since the movie never shows Obi-wan to be wrong and it gives additional reasons for why he is right. Ex Jango being hired by Tyrannus who we later see is Dooku. And Dooku working with Sidious/Palpatine and all of this was planned by them.

Yes you do, your assumption that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army REQUIRES Obi-Wan to be wrong. So we have to ignore what he says here;
"OBI-WAN: (V.O.) Yes, Master. They say a Master Sifo-Dyas
placed the order for a clone army at the request of the
Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he
was killed before that.

And;

MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the
authorization of the Jedi Council.

Tell me, if the audience is supposed to think that it really was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the army, why are these lines in the film?

I take them to indicate that there is something fishy about the clone army and it was most likely ordered under a false name and the jedi are aware of that. When we learn that Jango works for Dooku and Dooku was the one who hired him to be the template and all the other things, the plot is pretty clear. The Sith are behind the clone army. Then in RotS we see what the Siths ultimate plan was.

So to think that a Jedi was the one who placed this order becomes more than a little hard to swallow. Why did he do this, was he also a sith, why does Obi-Wan think he died before the army was ordered? In short it is an unsatisfactory explanation to me as it creates more questions than it answers.
If instead Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with the army and Dooku/Palpatine just used the name, then things makes much better sense.

It is POSSIBLE that Obi-Wan is wrong in the same way that it is POSSIBLE that Tarkin was just lying to the other imperial officers in ANH and the senate was never disbanded but that, to me, is a flawed assumption to make. Had the film showed Obi-Wan to be wrong then fine, he is wrong. Had the film included even a little of the EU stuff, I would not be having this discussion.

Even if I am being very generous and say that it is 50/50 whether Obi-Wan is right or wrong.
Since RotS never says anything about the whole thing then that 50/50 still remains and the Jedi still don't know for sure who ordered the clone army. This would be enough to make them be wary about it but they aren't.

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Yes and so we are forced to imagine what occurred between films.
Either;
1) the Jedi/senate decide not to investigate the army any further for whatever reason. Perhaps they are too busy and figure it can wait until the end of the war or they don't see any problems with the army. This actually fits with how the jedi act in RotS since they seem to think there is no way the clones can ever attack them.
2) The jedi/senate DO investigate and are able to confirm Obi-Wans statement that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered. This means they KNOW the army was ordered under a false name and thus they would be cautious with it.
3) The Jedi/Senate investigate but are not able to find out anything beyond what AotC established.
This would mean that all the question marks remain, they don't know who ordered the army or why.
They don't know who messed with their files and so on. So then they would still be cautious with the clone army.

The problem then becomes in RotS the Jedi never mention the Clone army as a factor or something they need to be careful with. Even when they are discussing removing Plapatine by force and disbanding the senate, the clone army is for some reason not something they consider.
Why is that?
They would know that the clone army obey orders without question and Palpatine has the highest authority in the chain of command so he can order the clones to kill the jedi.

In closing, take RotS by itself and a person seeing that with no knowledge of AotC. Would that person think that there was this big mystery around the clone army and there were a lot of shady things connected to it? I doubt it.

EDIT: Possibly this plot point got messy because of the rewrites that happened to it. When AotC was filmed, there was no Sifo-Dyas. Instead we had Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and Obi-Wan and the others knew it. Then in pick ups it was changed to a real but dead jedi, Sifo-Dyas but given Obi-Wan comments and the other things, it still seems that he wasn't the one who ordered the army.
a follow up was apparently planned for RotS but never occurred.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Or rather, was relegated to the book Labyrinth of Evil.

Maybe because Lucas figured that it would be far too talky to make a good SW movie.

 

What would be hilarious, is if episode 2 ended up becoming a total detective film, where in, Mace takes up the investigation after Obi wan is captured
and checks the jedi records concerning when Dias died, and through some roundabout sleuthing, discovers that the Jedi records had been tampered
with, which, of course, is something that only another jedi could accomplish.

I wouldn't really want to see them repeat that sort of thing a second time during a Star Wars film. However, being that the jedi are the types
to conduct investigations, it couldn't have hurt to at least hint at one during episode 3. But then again, there are so many things that could be
hinted at, that if time was spent to give attention to them all, we would probably just have one great big hint that perhaps we were watching a movie.

That said, I have always thought that the prequels were too ambitious in a lot of respects. I would have liked to see a more focused and simple plot,
so that a lot of the important twists and turns could be explored in full.

 

The Republic and the Jedi accepted the Clone army because they needed it right then and there was no other sizable military force immediately available to counter the CIS's droid armies and fleets. However, after Geonosis, the Senate and the Jedi (because of Sifo-Dyas's involvement if no other reason) should certainly have launched thorough investigations into the Clone army's background - who ordered it and when, and how it was paid for, etc.

I can accept that Palpatine would act, either personally or through subordinates, to mislead and/or eventually shut down the Senate's investigation at least, and attempt to keep the Jedi so busy fighting in the war that they wouldn't have time to perform a serious investigation. But while that might intially work in the Jedi's case, I do find strange that in the space of three years apparently none of the thousands of Jedi could be spared for an investigation, especially once the Republic had managed to fight the CIS to a relative standstill.

 

That's what Labyrinth of Evil has- Yoda telling of how he'd investigated the Kaminoans, followed the money trail from Bogg Four "into a maze of deception" and so forth.