CT Why didn't Vader sense Leia (in-universe explanation)?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 7, 2013.

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  1. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    It is simple, you have to use the Force to send a telepathic call to someone else but you do not need to be Force sensitive to be able to hear this telepathic call.
    Luke uses the Force to contact Leia and speaks in her mind. Likewise Vader uses the Force to speak in Lukes mind.
    Had Luke just done a general call to anyone and Leia was the only one that picked it up then you might have a point. But Luke "speaks" directly to her. Besides, if Force sensitivity is required then why did Luke do this? He did not now know that Leia was his sister at the time.
    Why Luke did not call out to Han? Han was frozen so Luke might have sensed that and Luke was probably "closer" to Leia.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Intuition? The moment Obi-Wan tells him he has a sister in RoTJ, he figures out it's Leia- maybe in ESB he already knew he was "close" to her, without figuring out exactly why.
  3. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Exactly. Plus, Luke already saw Han being taken away by Boba Fett so he's no help. Luke didn't know who Lando was and he hardly understands Chewie so the only person he could call out to was Leia.
  4. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2013
    star 4
    Isn't it possible that he was just calling out using the Force in general and Leia heard specifically because she is also Force-sensitive? I'm almost positive that Lucas decided between 4 and 5 to make Luke and Leia siblings, and that kiss was just a bit of a troll moment.
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    There is also a question how he learned to do this. Yoda could have taught him but if Force telepathy only works between Force sensitives then the ability is rather limited. So if Yoda taught him then he would also have told him that this ability is of little use as it only works between Force users. In ESB the ability is VERY limited as the only Force users around are Yoda, Luke, Vader, Palpatine and the "other" which Luke didn't know about. So really why would Yoda teach Luke this when there are many others things he has more use for?

    In any event there is zero evidence in the films that this ability ONLY works between Force sensitives so therefore it doesn't really indicate that Leia is Luke's sister.

    PMT99
    Yes Leia was the only viable option so Luke called out TO her. This doesn't really suggest that they were siblings.
    Again had he called to any and all persons and Leia was the only one who heard him then that might indicate that she is Force sensitive.

    themetresgained
    Incorrect, Luke calls out to specifically TO Leia, he says "Leia, hear me!"
    So he does not make a general call.
    Second, the script had other scenes that very much showed strong feelings between Luke and Leia and some of that was even filmed.
    Since Lucas neither directed ESB nor wrote the script the idea that this telepathic call was a hint that they were siblings is unlikely.
    According to Kurtz, Leia wasn't Luke's sister when ESB was made and I have seen some Lucas quotes where he says that he made Leia the "other" between V and VI in order to wrap up the love triangle. Of course I have seen other Lucas quotes where he says that they were siblings as far back as 1975.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface

    Bye for now
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Mar 11, 2013
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  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There's also zero evidence that it works between anyone but force sensitives.

    Thus, Leia turning out to be Force-Sensitive does not "contradict" anything.
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  7. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2013
    star 4
    I don't see how the love triangle needs to be wrapped up in Episode VI except on Han's side. Luke doesn't really seem to have serious feelings for her - I took his reaction after the kiss to mostly be to upset Han - but Han is the only one who thinks like there might be some feelings there still. I am pretty sure that it would have been decided between 4 and 5, if not earlier.
  8. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Since some claim that Luke calling to Leia is proof that she is Force sensitive then the burden of proof lies with them. They have to prove that this ability ONLY works between Force sensitives. They made the claim, they have to back it up.
    Simply using a lack of counter evidence is not enough.

    Also when have I said that Luke calling to Leia contradicts anything? If this ability works between Force sensitives and non-Force sensitives as well as between Force sensitives then having Leia be a Force sensitive is no contradiction at all. All I have argued is that Luke calling to Leia is not evidence of Force sensitivity on her part, I have not claimed that it proves that she wasn't Force sensitive.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
  9. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Here is a scene from the ESB script and it was filmed as far as I know but not included in the final film.

    Sure looks like Luke has pretty serious feelings for Leia.

    And the bit about the love triangle, I think it was Lucas that said this but I can't remember where I read it. I also think I have read somewhere that he made Leia, Lukes sister to give him a reason to get angry and attack Vader but again I don't remember where.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  10. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    First off, Yoda didn't have time to teach Luke everything on the count of Luke rushing off to Bespin.
    Second, In ROTS, we see Anakin overhearing PalpSidious speaking to him telepatically from the Jedi Temple. Then, there' supposed to be a deleted scene in ROTJ where Luke hears Vader calling out to him from Tatooine before we cut to R2 and 3P0 walking to Jabba's palace. We don't see any Jedi (or Sith) use their Force telepathy on any non-force sensitive person so the possibility of Leia being Luke's sister seemed like it would happen.

    Except, nobody has the Force (aside from Luke and Leia) so they wouldn't hear anything. Also, Leia hearing Luke through her mind isn't the only thing to suggest that they're siblings because there's also that moment where Yoda says "there is another" hope and the movie cuts to Leia on Bespin which tells us that she could be the next savior for the galaxy. ROTJ confirmed the whole Leia being Luke's sister and the other hope for the galaxy.
  11. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2013
    star 4
    Thanks. Thank goodness that was never included in the film. One can ignore one kiss seemingly to upset Han, but sheesh, that goes into un-retconnable territory.
  12. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    If Yoda didn't teach Luke this then how did he learn how to do it? We don't see everything that Yoda taught Luke but it is reasonable that the Force powers we see Luke use later have been taught to him by Yoda.
    If you include RotS or RotJ then of course Leia is Luke's sister as that is directly said in the films.
    And again using the logic of "we don't see it happen therefore it CAN'T happen" is flawed.
    We never see a female Sith in the SW films so does that mean that females CAN'T fall to the Dark side and become a Sith?


    [/QUOTE]

    You are using circular logic, Leia hears Luke's call because she is Force sensitive and because she is Force senstive she can hear Luke's call. Luke doesn't know Lando so he could not call out to him, the droids are also out and Luke calling out to Chewie would probably look silly. So Leia is the only option. And again your rule of "Only Force senstives can recieve a telepathic call" is never established in the films.
    Also, even assuming that Leia is another hope that doesn't prove that they are siblings. That only shows that she is also Force sensitive and could be trained as a Jedi. Or are all Force sensitives closely related? Remember, Yoda only speaks about another hope, not another Skywalker.
    In closing, I refer to the deleted scene with Luke and Leia that shows that Luke has really strong feelings for her and I doubt this scene was written with them as siblings.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Mar 12, 2013
  13. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    well that's just wrong
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    You're forgetting one of the foremost rules of logic- one cannot prove a negative.

    Thus, the burden of proof falls on those making positive statements, not negative ones.

    Negative statement "Luke cannot use Force telepathy to send messages to the un-sensitive"

    Positive statement "Luke can use Force telepathy to send messages to the un-sensitive"

    Now, as it happens, in G-Canon (not the movie, but the book) there is a case of a Force sensitive sending a message to someone we have no reason to believe is Force-sensitive.

    When Yoda comes to fight Emperor Palpatine, he sends Mas Amedda a "flee" message, without speaking.

    However, this was written long after The Empire Strikes Back.
  15. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    I think the answer to this question is answered in the film itself.

    "Governor Tarkin... I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board."

    There ya go. Vader probably couldn't sense a thing.
    Last edited by Barriss_Coffee, Mar 12, 2013
  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    If the negative is "Force telepathy only works between Force sensitives" then a situation where a Force sensitive TRIES to speak in the mind of a non-Force sensitive but FAILS. That would be positive proof that this ability has limits.

    Also you are making a positive statement. You claim "Luke is able to speak in Leias mind, this PROVES that she is Force sensitive."
    I ask for that proof, and such proof could be for ex Yoda saying "You can speak in the minds of others but ONLY with those that are strong with the Force." That would be positive proof that Leia is Force sensitive as Luke is able to do something that is only possible with Force sensitives.
    However no such proof has been presented. What has been presented is only "We have no examples of Force telepathy being used with non-Force sensitives so that proves that it is only possible between Force sensitives." This logic is flawed as it uses absence of evidence to prove that something can't happen.

    So to sum up, I have made no claim, I only say that Luke speaking in Leias mind is NOT proof positive that she is Force sensitive as no evidence exist that show that this ability ONLY works between Force sensitives. So those that want to claim that Luke speaking in Leias mind is proof that she is Force sensitive and even further, that she is his brother, have to come up with some evidence to support this reasoning. Otherwise it is a baseless claim.
    Esp since we have some behind the scenes info that speaks against it, that Lucas only came up with this idea when writing RotJ.
    And we have scenes in ESB script with Luke expressing very strong feeling towards Leia.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Mar 12, 2013
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    When has anyone in this thread said it is "proof"?

    Circumstantial Evidence- but not necessarily proof.

    Cite?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 12, 2013
  18. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The force wasn't strong enough with her yet.
  19. Darth Dru Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2013
    star 1
    There was a force feeling of some kind between the two; if you notice in the ESB carbon freezing chamber scene Vader saves Chewbacca and Leia's life when he knocks Boba Fett's arm down just as he's about to shoot at them. Also, at one point Vader looks at Leia and she senses something from him, you can see it in the way she reacts to his look. Go and watch that entire scene and you'll see what i'm talking about.
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Here "Except, nobody has the Force (aside from Luke and Leia) so they wouldn't hear anything.", saying that non-Force sensitives CAN'T hear this so clear proof.

    And here "That's not how it works in Star Wars. Luke isn't a telepath; he uses the Force. For a message like that to get through, it requires the other person to be Force-sensitive too."

    And this isn't really circumstansial evidence either as in ANH and ESB this ability isn't used very much and no-limitations or rules are established. The person sending their thought has to be Force sensitive but nothing indicates that the reciever has to be as well.
    And if this ability only ever works between Force sensitives then it's use is very limited, esp in ESB as the total number of Force users is very low.

    And why would Force sensitivity be REQUIRED to be able to hear the words of a Force user that is speaking directly into your mind? Luke is reaching out TO Leia, he speaks in her mind, the only requirement that I can see is that Leia has to have a mind. So this wouldn't work on a droid but other than that I don't understand why Force sensitivity is required.

    To sense other Force users yes, to pick up on thoughts that are not being sent, like Vader learning that Leia is Luke's sister from looking into his mind. But not this.

    In any event, even IF we assume that this shows that Leia is Force sensitive, why would that be any proof, circumstantial or otherwise, that she is Luke's sister? Luke was the offspring of a Jedi but he didn't know that. Leia could be the off-spring off another Jedi for all we know. Or she just happens to be Force sensitve.
    Yoda never says that the "other" he speaks of is Luke's sibling, gender isn't mentioned, so this "Other" could simply be another potential Jedi, nothing more.

    To sum up, no limitations have been established of this ability so I think it is a stretch to argue that is indicates much of anything. And at best it could indicate that Leia is Force sensitive but NOT that she is Luke's sister because that isn't establsihed anywhere.


    [/QUOTE]

    I think Gary Kurtz said that Leia wasn't Luke sister when ESB was made and I think I have heard/read a quote from Lucas where he said that he made Leia the other when writing RotJ because he wanted to tie up the loose ends. It might have been on some of the commentary tracks.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Mar 14, 2013
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  21. Darth Dru Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2013
    star 1
    Yes, it's true that Leia was not the original "other". In fact i don't think GL originally planned on Luke having a sibling at first. I believe that Lucas originally intended to introduce an entirely new force sensitive character in RotJ. He scrapped the idea however when he realized he didn't need or want to make a ST or any movies beyond RotJ (except for maybe the PT).

    Making Leia Luke's sister is one of the very few things about the OT that i didn't like. I thought it was a bad idea, and entirely unnecessary, not to mention a little weird as well.
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Just because we don't see it happen doesn't mean that it CAN happen. Everybody expected the prequel trilogy to consist of 12 hours of suited Darth Vader hunting and killing Jedi but that didn't happen. There are some who expected the prequels to be an extended version of that "Knights of the Old Republic" video game trailer but that didn't happen since George made the films into what it is now. Therefore, we shouldn't assume that we're going to see certain things like female Sith in Star Wars films when we should know that George isn't going to give us what we want. As for how Luke learned how to do Force telepathy....the same way he somehow became fully trained enough to defeat Darth Vader in ROTJ by being a quick learner.

    The fact that Leia has the same force-connection with Luke like he has with Vader DOES prove that they're siblings. Even without ROTJ, ESB gives out a strong indication that Leia will be sharing the same family bloodline as Luke and Vader do and the films never established that anyone can receive a telepathic call from a force sensitive being. They wouldn't know how to receive that call without using the Force so it would be impossible for Luke to call anyone else since they don't have the Force. Besides, ROTS already established the "only Force sensitives can receive a telepathic call" rule and whether or not George intended to make Leia as Luke's sister is unclear.

    What is clear is he left a huge possibility that he was heading down that direction.
    Last edited by PMT99, Mar 21, 2013
  23. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Who is this "Everybody" that expected the the PT would be "12 hours of suited Darth Vader hunting and killing Jedi"? I didn't expect it, nor did anyone I know. Second, 12 hours? Who do you know that thought that each PT film was going to be 4 hours long?
    Second, absence of evidence doesn't always mean evidence of absence. We don't see Force telepathy used on non-Force sensitives but that in of itself doesn't mean it CAN'T happen. We don't see the Jedi Mind trick used on females, does that mean that ALL females are immune to the mind trick? We don't see Mace Windu use the Jedi mind trick does that mean he can't do it?
    Bottomline, you are using a flawed logic where you use something NOT happening to prove that it CAN'T happen.


    [/QUOTE]

    Again no.
    First, where does RotS prove that non-Force sensitives CAN'T recieve a telepathic call? Is there an instance where a Force-sensitve TRIES to send a telepathic message and fails?
    Second, RotS is irrlevent here as that proves that Luke and Leia are siblings as we see them get born from the same woman. Add to that, RotS didn't exist at the time ESB was made.
    Third, where do you get the idea that it would take any kind of skill or knowledge of the Force to simply RECIEVE a telepathic call? Does it take any kind of training to hear something with your ears or see something with your eyes? Luke speaks directly IN Leias mind, why would it require any kind of Force connection to allow that? Also, if we include the PT in this, everybody has midis, we know this. The midis is a conduit to the Force, without them, noone would be able to use or know anything about the Force. So ALL living beings have a connection to the Force, the only variable is that for some the connection is stronger. So even IF we would want to assume that in order to be able to recieve a telepathic call throught the Force you need some connection to the Force. TPM establishes that ALL living beings have this connection. We are not told that those with a low midi-count CAN'T learn how to use the Force, all we know is that for the Jedi a certain number is important. Perhaps if you have a midid count below that number, learning to use the Force would take too long in the eyes of the Jedi, we don't know.
    In any event, since all living beings have a connection to the Force they should be able to hear telepathic calls through that same Force.
    Ignoring the PT, the OT establishes that all living beings are connected through the Force as Obi-Wan is able to "hear" the death scream of all the people of Alderaan.
    Fourth, even IF we want to assume that ESB indicates that Leia is Force sensitive, that does NOT prove or indicate that they are siblings.
    To argue otherwise is to insist that ALL Force sensitves are siblings. Is Palpatine related to Vader or Luke? Is Obi-Wan? Is Yoda?
    Yoda speaks of "another" not "another Skywalker." This person he refers to could just be another person who is Force-sensitive.
    We don't know.

    So to sum up.
    Leia hearing Luke's telepathic call does not prove that they are siblings nor does it prove that she is Force sensitive. Luke called out to the only person he could call out to. Han was frozen, Lando was an unknown, R2 and C3PO out of the question and Chewie would just look silly.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    First off, the "everybody" I'm talking about are some of the rabid fanboys who think that "Lucas raped their childhood" because he gave us Jar Jar, kid Anakin who likes to yell "yippee", teen Anakin who uses his hatred for sand as a pick-up line to seduce Padme, and goofy battledroids that say "roger roger". Surely, you'd remember the huge uproar over how audiences viewed TPM back when it was released. They all had huge expectations and some were disappointed that TPM turned out to be different than what they thought it would be. Second, you can't prove anything if you don't have evidence because your words alone can be easily dismissed as lies or crazy talk. Besides, your examples don't count because no Jedi (not even Mace Windu) has to prove anything to make a point. Seeing Qui-Gon and Obi-wan use the Jedi mind trick alone is more than enough to indicate that each Jedi is capable of using this ability. Plus, we did see Anakin tell Padme that his mind tricks wouldn't work on her since her mind is too strong as is Leia due to her resistence to Vader's mind probe. Third, your "anything can happen even if we don't see it" logic is the one that's flawed because if it were true, we'd have seen:

    - Padme surviving childbirth so that Leia could have memories of her.
    -Anakin telling Obi-wan about Luke and handing him his lightsaber to give to Luke so that Obi-wan's "Your father wanted you to have this" line wouldn't turn out to be a lie.
    -Yoda going to Dagobah since the scene was actually filmed.

    There's a huge difference between being told what's going to happen and then seeing it.


    How about when Anakin and Padme were looking out the window for each other from seperate buildings. Anakin wanted to reach out to Padme but couldn't because he's too wrapped up in himself so he goes to rescue PalpSidious instead.

    ROTS is not irrelevant because its purpose was to reinforce what was already established in Return of the Jedi while ESB hinted at the possibility of Luke and Leia being siblings.

    But Qui-Gon has stated that by quieting your mind and with time and training, a Jedi can hear the Force speaking to them and in this case, hear another Jedi speaking to them through their minds. Luke's jedi training helped him to speak into Leia's mind and to receive a telepathic call from Vader but if he never had any training, he'd be stuck dangling underneath Cloud City or worse, fell to his death. Even if all living beings have a connection to the Force, not everyone would know how to establish that connection unless they had some Jedi training.

    George had already thought about making Luke and Leia as siblings before he started writing the script for ROTJ. Leia's telepathic call was George's way of hinting to us that she could be the "other hope" that Yoda spoke of and that she's the other Skywalker. Otherwise, by your logic, Vader's telepathic call to Luke shouldn't prove that he's Luke's father either because by the time ESB hit theaters, nobody knew whether or not if Vader was lying about being Luke's father.
  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Again the ESB script has a scene that was filmed but eventually cut that show very strong feeling between Luke and Leia so that speaks against this.
    Lucas have said that this other was something he added to make the audience think that Luke might fail and to increase the tension. Kurtz have said that this other was Luke's sister that he was going to be looking for in EP 7-9. The first drafts of ESB support this as Luke's sister is called Neelith and she is safe and is training to become a Jedi herself. This person can't be Leia.

    About Vader, what are you talking about? Vader is able to speak in Luke's mind because he is a Force user, that doesn't PROVE that he is Luke's father. Vader has already told Luke that he is his father but wheter or not that was true was not clear at the end of ESB. Luke has to ask Yoda about it in RotJ. And I still can't follow your reasoning, you seem to argue that only people that are related can speak in the minds of each other. So really this power is limited to Luke, Leia and Vader. Palpatine can't speak in Vader mind. Yoda can't speak in Luke's mind etc.
    If we use this logic then Vader could be Luke's uncle or his brother or his grand father for all we know.

    Bottomline, even assuming that this power is limited to Force users, which still hasn't been proved, that does NOT prove or indicate that Luke and Leia are siblings. It would only prove that Leia is Force sensitive.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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