PT Why didn't Windu warn the other Jedi about Palpatine prior to going to arrest him?

In regards to this latest Dooku talk, do you think he could have been redeemed like Anakin was?

 

Anyone can be redeemed. The question is what it would take.

 

Yoda did try, very hard, in the Yoda: Dark Rendezvous novel. No luck, and Dooku very nearly turned him instead.

 

Legends aside, I also think there are traces of sincere regret in the way Dooku's portrayed. I think he actually did want to destroy the Sith but, like Anakin, underestimated the dark side.
It's very difficult to turn back, no doubt about it, but Anakin proved that nothing's impossible. Something, or someone, would have to awaken Dooku's love. What or who that might be, I don't know.

 

Given how much he boasts of being a Sith in TCW, I'm a bit doubtful that the Dooku of AOTC was in any way sincere in his statements to Obi-Wan.

Keep in mind who hired Jango 10 years before AoTC (and murdered Sifo-Dyas to keep the clone army secret, as well as deleting Kamino from the archives).

 

i think both things are true. he ordered the clones and did sith-work but he hated sidious and would have liked to do things his own way. he joined the sith because he wanted to make the galaxy better. he had good things in mind at first.

everyone thinks they'll do a better job when they're in charge and joining the sith is the way to make that happen.

 

Seems reasonable that Dooku started with good intentions. Certainly he would have liked to overthrow Sidious and his tempting of Obi Wan is sincere in that. According to the Lucas commentary he wants Obi Wan to join him so he can destroy Sidious, a typical Sith trait. Given it takes all of five minutes for Anakin to decide he wants to overthrow Sidious and take control of the empire after ten years that seems fairly consistent.

 

Labyrinth of Evil, while EU, is the only source to really elaborate on Dooku's joining of Sidious:

Though they hadn't enjoyed the smoothest of teacher-student relationships, he and Yoda had spoken openly of the portents. But Yoda was living proof of the conservatism that came with extended life. Dooku's true confidant had been Master Sifo-Dyas, who, while also disturbed by what was occurring, was too weak to take action.
The Battle of Naboo had revealed that the Sith were back in the open, and that a Sith Lord was at work somewhere.
The Sith Lord: the one born with the power needed to take the final step.
Dooku had given thought to seeking him out, perhaps killing him. But even what little faith he placed in prophesy was enough to raise doubt that the death of a Sith could halt the advance of the dark side.
Another would come, and another.
As it happened, there had been no need to hunt for Sidious, for it was Sidious who had approached him. Sidious's boldness surprised him at first, but it hadn't taken long for Dooku to become fascinated by the Sith. Instead of a lightsaber duel to the death, there had been much discussion, and a gradual understanding that their separate visions for how the galaxy might be rescued from depravity.
But partnership with a Sith didn't make one a Sith.
As the Jedi arts had to be taught, so, too, did the power of the dark side. And so began his long apprenticeship. The Jedi warned that anger was the quickest path to the dark side, but anger was nothing more than raw emotion. To know the dark side one had to be willing to rise above all morality, to throw love and compassion aside, and to do whatever was necessary to bring about the vision of a world brought under control—even if that meant taking lives.
Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm's length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous. Sidious had recognized in Dooku the makings of a true accomplice—an equal from the other camp, already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duelist, a political visionary. But he needed to gauge the depth of Dooku's commitment.
One of your former confidants at the Jedi Temple has perceived the coming change, Sidious had told him. This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The order for the army can stand, for we will be able to make use of that army someday. But Master Sifo-Dyas cannot stand, for the Jedi cannot learn about the army until we are prepared to have them learn of it.
And so with the murder of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku had embraced the dark side fully, and Sidious had conferred on him the title Darth Tyranus. His final act before leaving the Jedi Order was to erase all mentions of Kamino from the Jedi archives. Then, as Tyranus, he had found Fett on Bogg 4; had instructed the Mandalorian to deliver himself to Kamino; and had arranged for payments to be made to the cloners through circuitous routes ...
Ten years passed.
Under its new Supreme Chancellor, the Republic recovered somewhat, then grew more corrupt and beset with problems than before. As best they could, Sidious and Tyranus helped things along.
Sidious had the ability to see deep into the future, but there was always the unexpected. With the power of the dark side, however, came flexibility.
Having traced Fett to Kamino, Obi-Wan Kenobi had turned up on Geonosis, right under Dooku's nose. But when he had informed Sidious of Obi-Wan's presence, Sidious had only said, Allow events to play out, Darth Tyranus. For our plans are unfolding exactly as I have foreseen. The Force is very much with us.

 

Well he did bring some Jedi along, like Kit Fisto, but compared to the emporor they stunk.

 

So it was like bringing a vibroblade to a blaster fight.

 

I've deleted this post.

 

Mace didn't bring Anakin - he told him to wait at the Temple till he got back, and "if what you tell me is true, you will have gained my trust - but for now, remain here."

Anakin left the Temple against orders.

 

OK - Thanks. Wow, I can tell it's been a while since I've seen ROTS....

 

Now if Mace had brought Anakin - Palpatine might have been afraid to attack and turn himself into a murderer in Anakin's eyes.

When Anakin arrives in ROTS - Palpatine plays Victim Of Unjust Attack.

 

The Council won't train someone that old, which Obi-wan says will happen. He had attachments and these were his undoing. Yoda still objects to the boy's training even after Mace and the others change their stance.

That's because they couldn't believe that Dooku had turned to the dark side.

Jango's hand was still attached. His blaster was destroyed.

Because the boy has an attachment to Palpatine and acts like a petulant brat, which is bothersome for all of the Jedi Masters on the Council, including Obi-wan.

Because Palpatine cannot be tried fairly. He controlled the courts which is why Nute Gunray never went to prison and he controls the Senate, which is why he said, "I am the Senate!". Palpatine provoked him into changing his mind.

That's not why he wanted him to live.

ANAKIN: "I need him..."

He wanted Palpatine to live in order to pump him for information. Not more than an hour ago, he wanted to kill Palpatine.

PALPATINE: "Are you going to kill me?"

ANAKIN: "I would certainly like to."

PALPATINE: "I know you would."

He only interfered because of that.

PALPATINE: "You do know, don't you, that if the Jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost."

 

Also note that Mace did not switch from "under arrest" to "execute" until Palpatine tried to kill him, first. Even after the lightsaber duel, when he knocks Palpatine down and points his lightsaber at him, he says "You are under arrest, my lord." It is not until Palpatine tries to crisp him with a barrage of Force lightning that Mace switches to "He's too dangerous to be left alive!"

 

Here's another way to look at this: IMHO, Anakin was so far gone at this point in the film that even if Mace had brought him along from the beginning & he saw what happened with Palpatine (i.e. Palpatine attacking the Jedi), he would have still defended Palpatine and taken out Mace. He did adamantly say he needed Palpatine alive (so that he could keep people Anakin loved from dying, as he told Anakin earlier), so I'm of the opinion that he would still have gone against the Jedi even if he had seen Palpatine attack them...only because he didn't want Palps to die...

Just my .02...

 

It's possible.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. That is what the scene where Anakin looks over to Padme's apartment is all about. Anakin makes his decision to head over to Palpatine's office, not to help Mace, but to make sure that nothing happens to Palpatine. Now that doesn't mean he went there with the explicit plan to kill Mace, but, it wasn't to help him either. Anakin went to only make sure Anakin's interests were protected.

 

He had to act quickly and there was a back up in case he failed - Anakin.

Anakin knew everything. He was the warning to others.

 

The thing that bugs me about that scene is how quickly Mace rushed in without asking any questions (not that it actually mattered in the end).

Earlier Anakin claims that Palpatine is the Sith they've been looking for.
Mace doesn't believe him 100%, but says that Anakin will regain his trust if true.
Mace takes a posse and goes to Palp's office.
When he enters, he doesn't ask any questions or state Anakin's claims, like, "Chancellor, I have heard it claimed that you are a Sith. Is this true?" Or, "I have heard some disturbing things about you. Can we discuss them?"

No, he just has his whole posse light up their sabers and say "You're under arrest." He doesn't even say why--and I'm surprised he would do this based solely on Anakin's testimony alone, a kid he definitely doesn't trust.

It seems as if some lines from the script were cut out (A LOT of prequel scenes feel like this)

 

Like what?

 

TBF, though Obi Wan is sure that Anakin will not pass the trials due to his age its not a forgone conclusion, otherwise why test the boy at all? It seems to me that it is Anakin's emotional state that is the reason the council decide against training not his age per-se. Its either that or the entire council is screwing with Qui-Gon for the hell of it.
The point I was making is that Mace's tone seems to dismiss the idea that the boy could ever be considered for training and Qui-Gon is an idiot for suggesting it.

Again my point is the WAY that Mace says it. While I understand that the Jedi would not believe Dooku could be capable of such an act, Mace, in contrast with Ki Adi Mundi's more reasonable sounding objection, treats Padme like she is the most stupid person in the Republic.

Either way decapitation does not make one conducive to interrogation, which is the point I was trying to make. Its a boneheaded move under the circumstances.

Its not made clear anywhere that Mace is aware of Anakin's attachment to Padme, and while the Jedi may find Anakin petulant they do not state mistrust. Obi Wan outright states his faith in Anakin, noting that he has never let him down. Conversely Mace openly states his mistrust and shows his dislike for Anakin right to his face, Such hostility seems unbecoming of a Jedi Master somehow.

That said watching AOTC I find it ironic that when OBi-Wan expresses doubt about Anakins maturity and arrogance Mace is the one who disagrees saying the boy is the chosen one. ( Maybe Mace just likes to be contrary).

This is still not the Jedi way though, and in fact killing a Sith Lord because he is too dangerous to be left alive is exactly what Palpatine pushes Anakin into doing with Dooku - An action generally derided as part of his slide to the dark side and considered wrong generally, and at least Anakin had the nouse to feel regretful at what he had done. Mace seems not to care that he is about to commit cold blooded murder.
As to Palpatine controlling the Senate if the Jedi are taking temporary control ( legally dubious but is was Mace's suggestion....) then they should be in a position to show their proof and prevent subversion of justice surely.

The ends justifying the means seems to be the sort of logic that could, say, lead a political idealist to become a Sith. Surely a Jedi Master should be held to a higher standard.

To me this seems to back up the point I was making. Palpatine has tried, and apparently failed, to kill Mace and now is completely at the Jedi Masters mercy, a pleading pathetic thing. Its at that point Mace decides to kill Palpatine instead of arrest him. Now he could be angry that Palpatine tried to kill him after being disarmed but that seems petty for a Jedi Master, particularly as moments before he was going to arrest the Sith lord despite his having cut down three of his colleagues in cold blood. Makes Mace seem petty and prone to acting on his anger.

LOL, realise that. the above statement was one of fact ( since Anakin does indeed need Palpatine), did not mean to say anything about Anakins motives at that point.

LOL, never thought of that before. I think you are absolutely right. Not only is that true but, contrary to his saying IF the Chancellor refuses to give up his powers he should be removed, he does not give Palpatine the chance to do so ( Note he does not come in and say that Grievous has been killed but chooses arrest as his opening gambit) .
Its Like Mace has suddenly decided that, innocent or not, its time for the Jedi Coup.
( I imagine this is because in earlier versions of the script Obi Wan is the one who learns Sidious and Palpatine are one and the same and informs the council TBF).

 

Exactly - I forgot to mention that part about Palpatine willingly giving up his powers. Mace doesn't even ask. I guess we can deduce Jedi-clumsiness from this scene, but it comes across clunky.

Don't get me wrong though - I love this scene anyway! It kicks butt.

 

I always assumed that he did warn the others. Otherwise, he would have just gone by himself instead of going with 3 other Jedi accompanying him.