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PT Why didn't Windu warn the other Jedi about Palpatine prior to going to arrest him?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Drewdude91, Jun 29, 2014.

  1. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    I think the thread means the Jedi in general, not the guys he took with him to meet Palpatine.
     
  2. Master Jedi Macen Arren

    Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Warn them about what exactly?. The Jedi probably never even dreamed that the clones would turn on them, and there would have been no reason to think the clones would have. Mace may have warned the Jedi in the Temple and may have said something a long the lines of "Hey if we don't make it back get on to Yoda asap". But apart from that there's no reason for Mace to warn the Jedi about what's going on.
    Some people may say that because Palpatine was in control of the Republic and therefore the clones, that he could have done something like Order66. But the Jedi where sending Mace and 3 other Jedi Masters, there's no reason to think that they could not have dealt with the situation.
    Apart from warning the Jedi in the Temple I really don't think there's anything else Mace could have done, and now I think about it I remember reading somewhere that the Temple was actually locked down so Mace probably did tell them what was going on and take some measures by locking down the Temple.
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Nope, nothing was cut. They were on their way to confront Palpatine about Grievous being dead. While he doesn't quite trust Anakin, he also has no reason to doubt him due to making such a claim about his friend. He can sense confusion about Anakin which says to him that there is some truth to this. The start of the duel itself is taken from 2003, when the original version has Mace learning that Palpatine was Sidious from Obi-wan. Hence he has no reason to question the validity of it.

    They test the boy to see if he is as powerful as Mace claims, but the Code is explicit that Anakin is too old. Qui-gon says that he is too old when he talks to Shmi about him, the day before the race.

    QUI-GON: "Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become a Jedi, no doubt...he has the way. But it's too late for him now, he's too old."

    Qui-gon was hoping that the boy's status as the Chosen One would change their minds.

    That's an example of Jedi arrogance. If someone accused your friend of treachery, you'd think that person was a dumbass.

    Doesn't matter in the long run. The Jedi investigate the Clone Army without his involvement and were able to get to the bottom of it.

    Palpatine, not Padme. The Council knows that Anakin and Palpatine were good friends which is why they wanted him to spy on Palpatine. They can sense that he has an attachment to the Chancellor. That's why Obi-wan tells Anakin that they can't trust Palpatine anymore.

    Obi-wan is doubtful of Anakin because for ten years, they've been at odds with each other more than they've been friends. The war changed that because in some ways, Anakin finally started maturing. Mace puts his faith in Anakin until Anakin shakes that trust with his outburst, born from attachment.

    That was Palpatine's intention. He knows that Anakin is loyal to people more than principles, something that he fostered over thirteen years. And Anakin only did it because of his selfishness, not because it was right.

    Too many in the Senate would side with Palpatine over the Jedi. Allies like Padme and Bail were a minority vote and that's why Mace did what he did.

    He should, but Mace was goaded into anger and motivated by a willingness to do what was necessary, something even Yoda warned was taking them to a dangerous place.

    That's why a Jedi shouldn't fight in a war. Using the Force to fight so much, so often, brings out the worst in a Jedi. And Palpatine knew how to push his buttons and Anakin's. He didn't fail to beat Mace, he just changed tactics the minute he sense Anakin running to his office.

    He was taking the Posse with him to tell Palpatine about Grievous. He never made contact with Yoda once he found out who Palpatine was.
     
  4. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    d

    So Anakin matures and shows his ability in the war and Obi Wan comes to trust him and at the same time, seeing the increasingly mature and heroic Anakin, Mace does an about face and distrusts him. If he distrusts Anakin based on his outburst its worse, the slightest thing and Mace holds it against someone to the nth degree? there's a man I want in charge of an army.



    Palpatine missed a trick, given Mace he could have turned them both.
    And Palpatine manipulating Mace just shows he understands the flaws in the Jedi Master. you'd think the Jedi might have noticed that Mace was a bit rubbish as a master, but apparently not. With Anakin and Dooku, he knew what he did was wrong, road to the dark side or not. Mace's last act is a dark one pure and simple. Not something we expect from a master.


    No not really, corrupt they may be but proof he is a Sith and started a war is the sort of thing that cannot be ignored by politicians. At best Palpatine becomes the Star Wars universe version of Nixon. No way does he retain his emergency powers ( especially considering the war is now over so he is supposed to step down).

    And thus Mace attempts a killing that destroys the Republic because of a personal desire to kill someone over what is right.



    LOL I have been arguing that Jedi make lousy military commanders on another thread. Agree its a bad idea, the idea that the war caused Mace to act so badly is interesting. If a Master can be corrupted by war then anyone can.


    [
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    At the start of the war, Palpatine was trustworthy. But as the war went on, he was proving to be the opposite. His decisions and lies were concerning, especially in light of Dooku's accusations about the Dark Lord controlling things. When this proved to be true, Mace acted in the best interests of the Republic because if he is Sidious, then time is against them. He will move to eliminate the Jedi and seize control. If the Jedi fall, the Republic falls.


    Qui-gon doesn't think the Council will train him prior to doing a Midichlorian count. Upon doing so and combined with the revelation that the Sith were back, Qui-gon hoped the Council would bend the rules for Anakin. Prior to then, he knew the Council would say no. That's how the Code is. That's why when the Council says no, he's shocked. And then he says that he will do it, but the Council says that the Code forbids that.

    He wasn't. That's your perception of it.



    Jango wouldn't talk even if he did live.

    The Council didn't treat Anakin unfairly. They treated him as they would any Jedi who would act out of turn, even Mace himself would be reprimanded for such conduct. The boy acted like a petulant child with his emotional outburst, even Obi-wan could see that Anakin was in the wrong. When you act badly, expect to be treated harshly. They asked him to do this hoping that he would put aside his personal feelings and act as a Jedi, which Obi-wan even says to him.

    Mace didn't treat him badly. He told him to shut up and take a seat.

    Mace doesn't lose faith in Anakin until he shows an outburst of anger, which for a Jedi Knight is inappropriate behavior. A Jedi does not know anger. It's part of the Code.

    And risk them turning on him? Always two there are. No more and no less.

    Palpatine manipulated everyone. Quality of a Jedi Master isn't the issue.

    That's if the Senate believes the evidence the Jedi present. To them, it would appear to be a smear campaign. Made worse by one of their own going rogue in the first place.

    But Mace wasn't in the wrong, Anakin was. Because Anakin had the pwoer to decide what needed to be done and he chose himself and his needs over the Republic.

    Canonically, two Jedi fell because of the war as shown in TCW. In the old EU, a few dozen fell including Depa Bilba who sat on the Council and was Mace's Padawan.
     
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  6. Jair Crawford

    Jair Crawford Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Yoda was in the middle of battle meditation at Kashyyyk at the time, though.
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Battle meditation is not quite the same as telepathy.
     
  8. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014
    TBF Mace speaks of removing the Chancellor and the Jedi taking over the senate before he is told that Palpatine is the dark lord. Mace is itching to get rid of Palpatine ( look at how he bristles when told that the Senate will vote to continue the war while Grievous is about).




    Nothing suggests that Qui Gon does not think Anakin could be trained, that Anakin's sensitivity would have been picked up when he was much younger if it was the Republic. When Shmi asks if he can help Anakin he says "I don't know, I didn't come to rescue slaves"). But its clear he is already thinking about it which is why he does the Midichlorian test in the first place.
    Qui Gon seems sure that Anakin will pass the tests, and it seems clear the test is, Well... A test, and thus could be passed.

    Obi Wan does not mention the code when saying he thinks the boy will fail the tests, just says he is too old ( something he believes will be the cause of the boy failing, not the reason).

    Admittedly things do look bad for Anakin with the incredibly grudging way Mace ( well, who else ;)) Agrees to the test, he literally rolls his eyes.


    If you rewatch the scene ( posted upthread somewhere) its the arrogant tone and patronising smile that makes it obvious he is really talking down to her. As another poster said, even Padme looks like she wants to smack him.




    Two questions arise from this point - First, who says he would not talk, there is no way to know that, especially considering that there is nothing illegal about his ten year old job as Clone template.

    Second and most relevantly - Mace killed the biggest lead, regardless of whether Jango would talk ( and neither we nor Mace know that ) It was STUPID decision given Yoda wanted Jango alive.



    Mace treats Anakin with hostility through out, Its clear he resents Anakin being made a master and is not shy about showing his dislike of the boy. Yeah Anakin is offended and the others are not impressed but, later in the movie the others treat Anakin with respect and show confidence in him where as from Mace point of view Anakin has blotted his copybook and thats it. He just distrusts and dislikes him. He even tells Anakin to his face he does not trust him.



    Mace shows anger and irritation all the time, in ROTS he comes across as just hating Anakin for no reason ( now in the novelisation it makes some sense at least, given he senses new darkness around Anakin, but in the movie Mace just seems to be a douche.


    That was a joke, just making the point that Mace's decision to kill Palpatine, coming as it does after he has him completely at his mercy and overcome his last ditch attempt to kill him ( he thinks), Is one born of anger and vengeance. As I said it parallels Anakin's killing of Dooku perfectly.



    We do seem to be discussing Mace's flaws as a Jedi Master to be fair and being stupidly easy to manipulate by a Sith Lord into straying into the darkside is not a good trait.



    You can bet that someone would fancy becoming the new Chancellor, and the fact remains with the War over, Palpatine is supposed to step down.



    No They are BOTH wrong. Mace is wrong to give in to a desire to kill someone in anger, both from the POV of the Jedi Code and from a legal standpoint. And if Mace had stuck to the plan of arresting Palpatine then Anakin would not have cut his hand off. Just because Anakins motives were selfish does not excuse that Mace's were.
     
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  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I pointed that out when I said that Palpatine was acting corrupt before Anakin told him what he learned. And given that there was a Sith Lord controlling the Senate according to Dooku, the Council has reason to distrust him. It wasn't just Mace. As Obi-wan says to Anakin, Palpatine is a politician and not to be trusted and that he's managed to stay in office far longer than reasonable.

    You missed the part where he says...

    QUI-GON: "Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become a Jedi, no doubt...he has the way. But it's too late for him now, he's too old."

    Obi-wan says that Anakin is too old.

    OBI-WAN: "The boy will not pass the Council’s tests, Master, and you know it. He is far too old."

    And Mace says that he is too old.

    MACE: "He is too old."




    No, but there is in taking part in an assassination attempt on a senator's life.

    But not their only lead.


    Anakin isn't made a Master. He and the rest of the Council are bothered by Palpatine taking such initiative without consulting them, breaking a long standing agreement that the Council and the office of the Chancellor have had for centuries. The other Jedi Masters on the Council don't trust him either, save for Obi-wan. Mace is bothered because as a Jedi, he should not be behaving as he has and thus is losing his trust. And telling him that he will have earned his trust is crucial because if he ever wants to prove himself, he has to earn their trust and that means putting the good of the Republic ahead of his personal feelings.

    Because Anakin acts like a petulant child. That is why he distrusts Anakin and is bothered by him. If Obi-wan was asked to do this, he wouldn't object and would put the Republic ahead of any relationship he might have with the Chancellor. As Obi-wan says, "I would sacrifice anything to end the war."

    Palpatine was never going to step down, which is what the Council deduced and why they put Anakin on him and why they talked about removing him from office.

    Mace wasn't being selfish. He was trying to save the Republic from the Sith.
     
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  10. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Mace doesn't want a coup, but if Palpatine refuses to obey the constitution of the Republic, then the Council should do something about it. Then they find out that Palpatine is a Sith and they have no choice.



    Either way, he's too old.

    No, he believes that he will fail because of his age.

    They test him, but still reject him because of his age and his emotional attachments. Mace isn't the only voice on the Council and he agrees to train him later, but it is Yoda who objects.

    Obi-wan goes to Kamino to find the assassin's partner. They want to question him about that and about the clones. They find out who hired him for one job and yes, he dies before he could be questioned about the other.

    There was an investigation initially and they only concluded that Sifo-Dyas acted on his own. The second investigation was later when new evidence came to light.

    The Council was displeased with Qui-gon because of his maverick ways. Not just Mace. And with Anakin, it doesn't matter how often he acts heroic, being heroic does not make one a great person. Much less an ideal Jedi that could be trusted.

    Again, heroic deeds does not make you a great person. That's why Yoda said that to Luke. It's your character that matters and Anakin's character was poor. Obi-wan is uneasy because he didn't want to be the one who put him in that position, because of his relationship with him. As he ultimately says, "We are at war." He may not like it, but he can be objective on that front.

    Unless the Senate chooses to disbelieve the proof which is what Mace realized. Few Senators dislike Palpatine, but they do not have the political clout to win an election.

    It's a gray area because the Sith have to be eliminated and as noted, Palpatine was too in bed with the Senate to ever be punished for his crimes. Mace wasn't being selfish in choosing to eliminate the threat.
     
  12. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014
    But Mace does is not entirely sure that the Chancellor is the Sith Lord, as indicated by his telling Anakin IF its true he will have gained his trust. Then he barrels in and tries to arrest the Chancellor. There is no telling him to step down or asking about the accusations. Just, as Mace said before, an attempt to remove him from power.
    As an aside, Its never stated that being a Sith in of itself is a crime in the movies ( FWIW in the Novelisation it isn't), So we could argue Palpatine is being persecuted due to his religion.






    In Context of our discussion its very important, since it means that Anakin is not necessarily to old, and there is no evidence of a hard and fast rule in the Jedi Code prevents Anakin from being trained.



    Age preventing him from passing, Fail because of his age. Same thing. The important point is he believes that Anakin will fail the Tests ( as he does due to his attachments and fear) NOT that their is a rule preventing him passing.

    Thinking about it, given we learn in TCW and Lucas Commentaries that Younglings are taken at a very young age and that they are identified as babes ( far to young to have undergone the same testing). It is entirely plausible that the tests are there for older Children to be tested for suitability for training ( Ventress for example was older when she was picked up).

    With that in mind it's likely that the older a child is the less likely he is to pass the test. As such Anakin is at an age where children almost never pass ( actually I would guess that he was older than the previous record holder for oldest youngling to be accepted for training). As such, Obi Wan does not believe that Anakin will pass BUT the possibility is always there.

    Again nothing to say the Jedi Code forbids training at a certain arbitrary age. And the fact of testing is evidence against it ( as is the fact that Anakin can be apprenticed as a Padawan).




    No He fails the test due to his attachments and his fear. the point is he could have passed if that were not the case and then would have been trained. Mace gives the most vocal opposition, and seems dismissive of Qui Gon, Just as he seemed irritated at the idea of testing Anakin in the first place. At no point does Mace agree to training later, once Qui Gon objects Yoda says its not the time and Mace backs down saying they will decide the boys fate later.


    Obi Wan goes to capture Jango and Yoda's prime motivation seems to be learning about the Clone army at that point. Mace arrives on Geonosis and decapitates the bounty hunter KNOWING that Yoda would like to question him. Its not smart.


    Well there was no where for the investigation to go with both people they know to be involved in the Clone army creation being dead is there? the Investigation could have been a bit more thorough if Jangowas, Y'know alive to answer some questions.

    (FWIW I don't think that Jango knows that Dooku is Tyrannus so the investigation may still not have gone anywhere anyway, but thats not the point killing Jango was dumb).



    The Council were displeased with Qui Gon but he was still made a Jedi Master so they cannot have found him that bad. They also look back on Qui Gon's memory fondly and speak highly of him. See Qui Gon is an excellent get things done Jedi but not really what the council needs. The irony is that exactly the same is true of Mace. He is powerful, and gets things done ( like Qui Gon he is a tad impulsive and arrogant) but he is a lousy council member.





    True heroism certainly makes you a better person. maybe not great but not a complete tool either. Anakin is worthy of a bit of respect by this point, his character is flawed, but not Poor. Thats the tragedy of what happens to him, he is basically a good persone and a hero, but he falls due to his weaknesses. As mentioned its ironic that Mace in trying to strike down Palpatine in anger after he is defeated mirrors one of Anakins acts of darkness.
    The fact remains though that Mace is the only one who seems to hold an actual grudge instead of moving on.
    With Obi Wan his is unhappy because he knows the orders he is giving are against the Jedi code and are morally wrong. Obi Wan is a by the book sort of Jedi generally so doing something he feels is wrong, even for the greater good will not sit well with him. When Anakin calls him on it he has no real retort and can only manage a weak " the council is asking you" ( again its a brilliantly played scene).




    Theres enough to remove him, especially in light of the war being over. Once someone makes the motion to have him step down if he refuses he has violated the law, if not he is gone. See you could argue with the corruption that despite being ousted from power Palpatine might be able to get off some charges but his political career would be done.



    [/QUOTE]

    Its not a grey area. As Lucas makes clear is a recurring theme of the films a Jedi's motives are all important. Mace has Palpatine, defenceless and at his mercy. THEN in a fit of pique decides to kill him. Its not a reasoned decision, if it were he would have simply killed Palpatine when he disarmed him instead of telling him "You are under arrest my lord"
    To paraphrase Terry Prachett, if you are at someones mercy pray its an evil man, because an evil man will gloat, a good man will simply pull the trigger.

    So yeah, Mace was being selfish and if he had arrested Palpatine, had he chosen the noble path the Republic might have been saved. If Lucas did that deliberately thats some brilliant writing.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    He's removing him from power because he's acting on faith that Palpatine's claims are true. If Palpatine comes along peacefully and does nothing to attack him, then he will continue to doubt the boy. If he resists, then he will know for certain.

    Except for the fact that A) a Sith Lord was leader of the terrorist group fighting against the Republic and B) a thousand years ago, the Sith had enslaved the galaxy and were overthrown by both the Jedi and the remnants of the Republic.

    Qui-gon thinks that Anakin will be trained because he's the Chosen One. The Council disagrees with his assessment of the boy and because of his age, he will not be trained despite his potential. The Council chooses to vote eleven to one to bend the rules after it's confirmed that the Sith are back and thus have reason to trust Qui-gon's faith.

    They are not the same thing. Anakin passed the basic tests which demonstrates that he has a strong connection to the Force. He failed when it came to gauging his emotions which was due to his age.

    Ky Narec trained Ventress on his own without consent of the Council, choosing to go against the Code. The testing done for Anakin was for those who were at least two years old. Four as far as possible. Most of the children were newborns to toddlers, but a few were older. But not as old as Anakin was. Even in the old EU, Ki-Adi was four. In the official canon, her affiliation with the Jedi Order is non existent and the Sith are more open to her age.

    Only Qui-gon believes that and that is only due to who he believes him to be.


    His attachments are due to his age. At two, a child isn't entirely likely to remember their family. At nine is a different story. Mace is the most vocal because he's the senior member of the Council. Lucas only had three Council members speak in the first two films. And Mace does agree, because only Yoda objects to Anakin being granted the opportunity to train at the Temple.

    YODA: "Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Council does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not."

    YODA: "Qui-Gon’s defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree, the council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be."

    Ergo, the Council agreed. Yoda was the only one to object. That's why ten years later, Mace never says a cross word to him. It's only at the end of the war that he distrusts him and voices his concerns.

    All Yoda says is that they want to question him. He never indicates whether it's about the army, or about the assassination. They found out who hired Jango and Zam. They later confirm that Sifo-Dyas was involved.

    The first investigation ended because they couldn't disprove Sifo-Dyas and Jango's claims. The second time, they found out more due to an unexpected resource. As to Jango knowing who Dooku was, he said that he was hired by him on the moon of Bogden. He knew who he was. That's why he was there on Geonosis.

    Qui-gon didn't act like a petulant child like Anakin did. Qui-gon had earned his status as a Master because even though he disagreed with the Council, he still proved himself to be loyal to the ideals of the Republic and the Jedi Order. He wasn't allowed to sit on the Council because of his maverick ways.

    Mace doesn't hold a grudge against Anakin. His feelings towards the boy is no more different than a parent disciplining their child after the latter throws a temper tantrum. Or a teacher looking down on their student because they screwed up and are wasting their potential. I disappointed my teachers quite a bit with my attitude during my early teens and had to regain their trust and respect.

    There would be an attempt at a vote of no confidence, but there would be a majority vote in favor of his staying because Palpatine has bribed and coerced so many into siding with him, that he would never be removed legally. That's why there's a war later on to remove him. He also has control over the courts which would prevent him from going to trial.

    Mace only changes his mind because not only was he goaded into it, but he also realized that Palpatine was far more powerful than just through the Force.
     
  14. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Mace does not entirely believe Anakin, and more to the point he does not give Palpatine a chance to quit does he?


    Who says a Sith was leader of a terrorist group? Well arguably they could say the late Dooku was but he is dead. So condemning someone based on anothers actions is questionable. Likewise condemning someone based on acts of others a thousand years ago is not exactly fair ( don't get me wrong, being Sith may well be illegal, but if it is its purely due to religion. Sidious has done a lot of illegal stuff but being a Sith is not it). Think about it in the real world could someone be arrested for beiing Jewish for example.

    NO the council test the boy and he fails the test due, it seems, to his fear, the test is entirely fair ( even if Mace thinks its a waste of time)

    No, I think you are wrong. the tests being as I suggest for older kids, are not just about force ability but whether the candidate is to caught up in attachments or other emotions to be trained. Note that Anakin is able to pass the force test but shows an over abundance of fear.


    No one ever said such, though in fairness training a Padawan from the get go does seem to be allowed. We do see in TCW that the kids who are the next generation of Jedi are very young babies. So the idea that the tests are for kids discovered older is not without merit.


    The fact remains they do decide to test him to see if he can become a Jedi ( and the film makes it fairly clear its not a test for just curiosity, if only because its clear that Mace feels its a waste of time based on his eye rolling) So the possibility of passing the test and being trained is very much there.



    As I said the tests are for older kids and the older they are the less likely to pass the test, thats consistent and makes much more sense that an arbitrary age at which a child is to old " by the code" ( never stated in the movies or TV series). Its a possibility a child that old could pass the tests ( ironically a sociopath would )



    Not the case, the council decide to defer the decision but it is clear from Qui Gon that anyone can be chosen as a Padawan ( hence his " then I take Anakin as my Padawan learner") so really there is no ground to refuse Obi Wan. Its Yoda choosing to keep him in the letter of the law instead of becoming a renegade.


    All about context, they ask for Jango once they learn of the Clone army, now they could consider that irrelevant but that would make them idiots in the first degree.



    No, there is no reason to suppose that Jango is aware that Dooku is Tyrannus ( otherwise why not say Dooku instead of Tyrannus in the first place). Palpatine spends threee movies hiding under his hood, so its not a stretch to imagine that Jango met a mysterious hooded being called "Tyrannus" who hired him.


    Anakin repeatedly showed his intelligence and bravery in helping others in the war. One little outburst does not undo that for everyone ( well except Mace)



    No Mace treats Anakin as someone he dislikes and has no time for. No forgiveness, no consideration of what he has done before. Mace makes it clear he distrusts and dislikes Anakin and he holds a grudge. The disciplining a child idea is interesting since the idea of a parent who holds a grudge against a child after the event has to be considered abuse.



    Bare in mind we have the Loyalist commitiee ( who apparently have at least a thousand behind them ). Then all the neutral worlds ( led earlier by Duchess Satine, but someone took her place.) Plus the members of the Banking clan who would like to have control back in their hands ( not Palpatines) plus all the ones who such as the Trade Federation who are claiming neutrality but are with the Separatists. All theses will line up against the Chancellor who has to resign anyway, And that is aside from anyone who fancies oustiing Palpatine so they can be Chancellor.
    The guy has no chance ( unless there is an order 67)



    Mace only changes his mind because not only was he goaded into it, but he also realized that Palpatine was far more powerful than just through the Force.[/quote]
     
  15. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    [/QUOTE]

    I think Mace realizes the possible consequences to the Jedi if he simply kills the Chancellor. The Senate would have seriously questioned the Jedi if the Chancellor was struck down with an attempt to arrest him first. Mace was considering politics, a decision that turned out to be fatal for him.
     
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  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    That's what taking a leap of faith in Anakin is about. As to Palpatine, if he's a Sith, he's not going to just hand it over.


    Palpatine was the leader of the Confederacy. Not Dooku. He was just his Apprentice. As to condemnation of religion, but of past actions and current ones. The Sith were responsible for the Naboo invasion, the assassination attempts on Senator Amidala, creating an illegal Clone Army in the name of the Jedi and countless acts of war, treason and sedition.

    The tests aren't just about the Force, but about his age and attachment. He already failed due to his age.

    Except we never see older kids coming in to be tested in the films, nor TCW. Ergo, any testing at an older age would be for two years olds at the very least.

    But never presented in the films and the show. And given that Mace and Obi-wan both say he is too old, there is precedence that his age was always going to be an issue.

    Only because he might be the Chosen One. Not because it was anything standard. You're making a leap that six and seven year olds come in often and wind up getting trained. Age is and was an issue.

    Said age arbitration has to do with attachment, regardless of whether you think it makes sense or not. Nor it is clear that this was a standard testing and not something that's just done for Anakin due to his potential.

    Qui-gon was going to defy the Code and the Council, when he said that he was going to train him. Obi-wan was going to do the same thing. Yoda didn't make the choice to let the boy be trained formally. He objected. He only lets go of his argument because the Council has outvoted him.

    Jango was sought out before the army was discovered. So he was going to be brought in regardless.

    Because Jango is loyal to Dooku and thus gives him his Sith name, rather than his real name. Dooku's face is easily recognizable since he's the leader of the Confederacy. The one who has been speaking on their behalf. He would have been recognizable regardless of the hood. Maul, if you will note, left his hood on until he went to take his cloak off. Likewise, Anakin put up his hood when he marched on the Temple and later when he went inside the Mustafar command center. He only takes it off when Padme shows up.

    And Yoda. And the rest of the Council except for Obi-wan. It's conduct unbecoming of a Jedi and as Yoda said, wars do not make one great. Yoda even admonished Luke for his emotional outburst in TESB.

    YODA: "Ready, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained! A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!"

    That's not abuse. Unwilling to trust a child after violating a trust and needing to re-earn it is hardly abuse, otherwise everyone is abused and that's not true. Not just kids, but between adults. Anakin will regain his trust by proving that he is loyal to the Republic and not one person.

    MACE: "If what you have told me is true, then you will have earned my trust."

    The Loyalist Committee barely had any power and were largely ignored by the Senate.

    And Mandalore would remain neutral with her dead.

    San Hill and Nute Gunray fear Sidious since they know that he is the reason they were kept out of prison and that if they turn on him, he will find a way to eliminate them.
     
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  17. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008
    What the . . . ? I don't even know how to begin with this comment. It's so WRONG. It sounds as if the person who posted this comment simply dislikes Mace and in the process, allowed his or her facts to get screwy.


    All of the members of the Jedi Council were against the idea of Anakin being part of the Order. Even Obi-Wan was against it. The only reason he finally agreed to train Anakin was to keep a promise he had made to the dying Qui-Gon. The only reason Anakin ended up in the Order was that the other members of the Council - except for Yoda - decided he would be better off being trained by the Jedi. By AOTC, Obi-Wan was still expressing doubt over Anakin's role as "the Chosen One", while Mace seemed more open to the idea. Yoda did not express his views in the movie. Before ROTS, the Jedi discovered that someone within Palpatine's circle was a Sith Lord and began to express distrust over Anakin's friendship with the former. By the way, Anakin was definitely an adult by this time, despite his childish reaction to being denied the title of "Master" after joining the Council. Only Obi-Wan seemed opened to "the Chosen One" prophecy by this time. Both Yoda and Mace did not.
     
  18. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Nevertheless he does not give Palpatine a chance. I may misunderstand the Jedi code but offering a chance to surrender seems to be implicit, By attacking the Chancellor it is indeed treason.



    Palpatine being the leader of the Confederacy is not clear though, and there is no indication that it is known the Sith are responsible for the Naboo invasion or the assassination attempts. Arrest the man and bring charges by all means. But effectively Mace decides to convict the man without trial and have the Jedi take over.



    I agree completely the tests are about more than just force ability as I said he failed BECAUSE of his fear. That does not mean that his failure was a forgone conclusion ( else there would be no point in testing him) As I said it seems logical that the tests are for older potentials and at his age Anakin was just incredibly unlikely to pass ( which is entirely different from not being able to pass at all). For example the much older Luke may well have passed.


    Thats a false conclusion and the very fact that Anakin is tested is evidence against it. In the films and series we see very little of youngling training at all. Though we do see that Ventress appears to be older than two when she is taken by her master. It seems logical the tests are indeed for older kids, rare as they probably are.



    Mace, as mentioned, says it dismissively of Qui Gon after the testing and Obi Wan is saying why he believes the boy will not pass ( in itself an indication that the boy could be sucessful). As I said I would postulate that Anakin was older than anyone who had passed testing so it was considered unlikely. The point is it is not impossible.



    No I believe that older children are rare but still are tested. Nothing indicates that Anakin is tested because he is the chosen one. They simply test him.



    The way the tests are spoken off indicates they are a standard thing. An arbitrary age makes no sense and indeed would have meant that Anakin would not have been tested. So my viewpoint has logic and validity.



    Sorry when is it shown Yoda gives in as the council outvotes him. Pretty sure it is not. He simply does not want Obi Wan to be in defiance of the council. The fact remains it seems a Jedi can take a Padawan at any age.





    Umm, nothing indicates that Jango knows that Dooku is Tyrannus. As to the hood thing, well it seemed to work well for Palpatine so no reason it would not for Dooku.



    Yes he does, however Yoda moves on and does not hold a grudge against Luke does he? nor does he against Anakin. But Mace seems to.





    San Hill and Nute Gunray are not in control of the Trade Federation and Banking clan ( officially at least) as shown in TCW. The Banking clan would certainly like control back. Nothing suggests the loyalists have no power ( they can certainly prevent the creation of an army in AOTC) and its shown repeatedly in TCW that Organa and Amidala are great at swinging people to their viewpoint. Its not a done deal.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Uh, Palpatine attacks them. They ignite their Lightsabers the same way cops pull out their guns to arrest someone. Mace only tells him to surrender when he's got him pinned down and unarmed.

    There are two Sith Lords. Darth Maul was identified as a Sith. Dooku was also identified as Darth Tyranus and he told the Jedi that Darth Sidious controlled the Naboo invasion and the Senate. Palpatine just confessed to being Darth Sidious to Anakin. Ergo, they're arresting him for that. They'll dig up evidence after he's in custody, not before when he can destroy them.

    They're testing him because he might be the Chosen One. But he was going to fail regardless because they don't hold the prophecy in good faith and he was too old. Luke would pass and fail the same way.

    By a Jedi who went against the Code and permission of the Council.

    It was until there evidence that he could be the Chosen One. Otherwise, he would never been formally trained.

    Except when questioned, he says that he believes him to the the Chosen One and Yoda says that they can see right through him. Meaning that he wouldn't have done this otherwise.

    It's not treated as a standard thing. You're just assuming that because no one says, "We haven't done that in centuries." Not to mention the old EU was specific that was a limit and all known bios indicated that the cut off was at least four years of age.

    Then, "He's too old" wouldn't have been brought up in TPM and TESB. That does not compute. Obi-wan and Qui-gon would defy the Council and they'd be unable to stop them even if they chose to expel the two of them.

    Dooku never wore Sith robes and wore the same outfit on Bogden as he did on Geonosis.



    YODA: "Told you, I did. Reckless is he. Now, matters are worse."

    Meaning he knew something like that was going to happen. And Anakin, he tells Luke to commit patricide.

    And they both know that Sidious has agents within the Republic that are loyal to him, who would eliminate them if they attempted to grow a spine.


    The army was created long before they formed the committee was formed and Palpatine bypassed them easily. And even Bail acknowledged that they didn't have enough power on their side, in the ROTS novelization. Which is why he tells Padme to wait to even attempt to challenge Palpatine.
     
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  20. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    They come in all aggressive. Not exactly giving him a chance to speak for himself. It has Coup written all over it. Mace of course tells him to surrender then decides he is going to execute him.



    That is something for the courts, especially as Mace makes clear he does not entirely believe Anakin. So from his perspective the Chancellor MAY be the sith lord. Agreed digging evidence afterwards is a good idea, arbitrarily killing the man kinda screws that though.



    Nope, never is it either stated, or implied that the test is a special case due to the Chosen one thing ( which they find doubtful anyway) Its simply a test to see whether Anakin can become a Jedi. He is unlikely to pass but its possible ( FWIW Luke probably would have) .


    Sorry but where was that stated in the show, pretty sure it wasn't. That Jedi saw a youngling capable of becoming a Jedi and trained her. no mention of defying the council . Like your statement Qui Gon said the boy was too old, you either misremember or just made that up.


    Again nothing in the films or series suggest this is the case. The fact they test Anakin suggests it is possible. No one mentions it being because he is the chosen one.



    Yoda seems doubtful of the idea, not accepting. But since they have a testing in place they may as well test him.



    It is described as a test and Obi Wan's talk of it seems to show its a standard thing. the flipside of your argument is that they do not say " As you know we have a test for older kids" And the EU counts for nothing, unless you agree that Owen Lars is Obi Wans brother for instance.



    No nothing in the movie says that Yoda gives in to the council. gives in to Obi Wan maybe ( though its clearly not that big an issue) but give in to the council. Nothing says that whatsoever. From the films its clear that Mace, at least would have none of it.

    I must have overlooked the scenes in the films where we saw Dooku recruit Jango, remiss of me I know. From my perspective since WE NEVER SEE IT there is nothing to show that Jango sees Dooku as Tyrannus. You seem to be misrembering or making stuff up.






    Seeing the Chancellor fall, well thats exactly when they would politically move against him. And nothing suggest that they know that Sidious is Palpatine.


    [/QUOTE]

    Which means nothing after the war is over and Palpatine is accused of corruption.
     
  21. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    He was in the moment and thought he would be able to arrest him or kill him with the jedi he had.
     
  22. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    *Cue movie trailer voice guy*

    Now, together, blue ghost to blue ghost, they decide to take it back.

    Coming 2019: The Yodaman and Mace Windu Chronicles of Whup***…..
     
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  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    You do know when someone is arrested, the arresting officers will draw their weapons in anticipation of hostile intent? He's just been told that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, so of course he's going to arrest him.

    And as Mace reasoned, given that Palpatine kept Nute, Rune and Hill from going to prison, the courts were corrupted.

    They're connected together.

    Ventress's bio states that Narec was stranded on Rattatak when he discovered Ventress and trained her on his own, without contact with the Council.

    QUI-GON: "A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of Midichlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the Midichlorians."

    MACE WINDU: "You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force... you believe it's this boy??"

    QUI-GON: "I don't presume..."

    YODA: "But you do! Revealed your opinion is."

    This is an assumption that it is a standard testing and not something they put together on the fly.

    I'm not talking about the EU counting. I'm talking about when it did, that was the only time children were depicted being older was when it was Ki-Adi-Mundi.

    Yoda says that he does not agree with the decision to train the boy, but the Council has granted permission. Ergo, Yoda is the lone holdout.

    Jango says he was recruited by a man named Tyranus. Dooku's Sith name is Darth Tyranus. Jango goes to where Dooku is and Dooku has been in contact with him. Dooku is a public figure. This isn't Superman wearing a pair of glasses and calling himself Clark Kent.

    They're cowards. Established by Qui-gon Jinn. They're too afraid of Palpatine.

    If he were arrested and put on trial, with his identity bandied about, they'd know.

    It would never get that far. You think Palpatine didn't anticipate that something could go wrong?
     
  24. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    You do know when someone is arrested, the arresting officers will draw their weapons in anticipation of hostile intent? He's just been told that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, so of course he's going to arrest him.

    The fact remains that Mace clearly does not like the Chancellor, and has already told the Jedi they should depose him and take over. Then without telling the law or the senate they confront Palpatine in private. And the fact remains being Sith is not established as a crime.
    And as Mace says, he is not convinced by Anakin. Better to demand the Chancellor resign as he should ( perhaps in public?) and then see how he reacts.

    Ignoring the law and taking over ( which as Mace said was his plan) is not right. There are ways the Jedi, of all people could ensure a legal trial. The Nute thing even works for them since he is a known separatist leader now.



    The test seems entirely separate from the chosen one thing and NOTHING on screen suggest otherwise. They test Anakin purely to see if he can be a Jedi. FWIW Luke, who seems not to have attachment problems would have probably passed the tests.



    Read the bio's on Wookiepedia ( the canon one ) and STarwars.com, it does not say that Narec was not in contact with the council. That said even if he was not we see from TPM that a Jedi, providing he does not already have a padawan, is well within his rights to take someone as a Padawan. So Narec is well within his rights and is not defying the council ( TBF we do not know if he actually tested her ).



    Still nothing suggests that the council change their mind or only test Anakin since they feel he is the chosen one. The Council seem doubtful and Mace is almost entirely dismissive of the idea, reluctantly agreeing to testing. Nothing suggests the testing is a one off. Again the tests seem to be standardised. Doubtful the Jedi had a standard test for incase the Chosen one shows up.



    Damn right, cause that is exactly the way it is presented.





    The council confers the rank on Jedi Knight on Obi Wan. Thats it. Yoda does not say the agree or disagree to training Anakin. Yoda himself makes a personal statement he thinks it is a bad idea, however he has no grounds to stop Obi Wan since Obi Wan has every right to take whoever he pleases as his Padawan learner. The council may not approve but it is not forbidden ( based on your logic they would have).



    Nothing suggests anywhere that Jango knows that Dooku is Tyrannus. We see from the movies that with a simple cloak, Palpatine who let us not forget is the Chancellor and a very public figure, is able to maintain a duel identity quite sucessfully. Dooku could easily do the same. Lets face it its not unlikely that a bounty hunter is unused to being hired with a certain amount of anonymity anyway. So no there is no evidence that Jango has any idea that Dooku and Tyrannus is one and the same. He is simply working for Dooku at the time Obi Wan shows up.
    As mentioned before, difficult for Dooku tp maintain the image of noble separatist leader to his senate if they know he is a Sith.


    They may be cowards but they can see which way the wind blows many leaders have fell in just that way ( for UK residents look at Margaret thatcher). once Palpatines position becomes untenable they will fall on him like wolves.



    At which point Palpatine is screwed anyway. the idea he has a secret identity directing the separatists would be hard to recover from.


    [/QUOTE]

    Palpatine is an absolute chessmaster. I think however he knew that he would never be put in that position. As you mentioned earlier he manipulated Mace beautifully.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi were debating about it, but hadn't decided to take action until they find out he is a Sith Lord. As to telling local security, they'd be no match for him. As to the Senate, if they waited, he could turn around and issue an order for their termination. He just outed himself and knows full well Anakin went to report this to them. Mace believes that Palpatine is going to execute an endgame soon. And yes, being a Sith Lord is a crime because he's a criminal. He's the one who started the war and was in league with the Separatists.

    But he's willing to trust Anakin and as to the rest, see above.

    Mace didn't have a plan. He said that he was going to update Palpatine and see what he does next. And obviously Mace was in the right, because he went through with it. Meaning that the Jedi have that option to arrest the sitting Chancellor if they have just cause. Yoda and Anakin never say it was wrong to arrest Palpatine for criminal acts, only that it would take them to a dark place if they did so.

    Except he failed Yoda's test on Dagobah. They already know that Anakin was given the Midichlorian test. They want to see if he's as strong as Qui-gon claims and if he is the Chosen One as a result. It's all tied together when Qui-gon refers to him as the Chosen One.


    I never said that it wasn't within his rights, but he did not have consent of the Council and those flashbacks of Narec and Asajj were taken from the EU.

    Again, you assume it is standard.

    They did agree with the decision which is why Yoda says that the Council agreed to let him train the boy. You're trying to circumvent the facts to prove your point that they didn't agree. They did. This is proven in the film and AOTC.

    Thanks to a hologram that distorts his voice and his image.

    Except they met in person. Palpatine never meets with his pawns, other than his Apprentice, in person. Dooku and Jango did based on what he said. He wouldn't have mentioned that he was on the moon of Bogden unless that's where they met.

    But Thatcher didn't have hired assassins and individuals like Grievous working for him. Nor complete control over the Senate and the Courts like he does.


    He wouldn't hedge his bets on anything. Including that possibility.