PT Why didn't Yoda take the twins with him to Dagobah to be Trained as Jedi from Birth?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Chainmail_Jedi, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    As the titles says. The more logical decision of Yoda would have been to take the twins with him and train them as Jedi from birth. Since he was present at their birth before he left for Dagobah, why didn't he do this?
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 5, 2013
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I don't have a good in-universe answer for that.
  3. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Wasn't it explained in RotS?

    Yoda: Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.
    Obi-Wan Kenobi: We must take them somewhere where the Sith will not sense their presence.
    Yoda: Hmm... Split up, they should be.
    Bail Organa: My wife and I will take the girl. We've always talked about adopting a baby girl. She will be loved with us.
    Obi-Wan: And what of the boy?
    Yoda: To Tatooine. To his family, send him.
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The problem with that is, those lines make no sense. Clearly Yoda went somewhere where he could not be sensed. And Luke, they put him in the most obvious place of all to look, and let him keep his last name.

    The only part of that that makes any possible sense at all is that they decided to split them up. I can buy that. The rest of it is gibberish.
  5. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Well on the basis of that conversation, taking Luke to Dagobah and training him from a young child was inconceivable? Yoda remained undetected all those years. I mean, the Emperor was totally oblivious to his presence. As was Vader. The Emperor was aware Yoda had survived and Anakin was aware of Obi wans survival. So we're left with the assumption that they both assumed they had both been killed by the clones? That's a pretty big assumption to make with no evidence. Two of the most powerful Jedi could still, and most likely, still be alive but hey, all the others are dead so it's no problem.
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  6. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Was it that obvious? Why would Vader go to Tatooine? He doesn't like the place, it's very remote, and as seen in the movies, he didn't have that many good experiences with it.

    Well, we don't know if Skywalker is an unique surname.
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  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    You just want it to make sense. You wouldn't put Luke anywhere near that house. Or that planet. It's absurd.

    And it makes no difference how popular the name is if a Skywalker is living IN THAT HOUSE. A child could put that together. Vader definitlely would. It makes no sense to put Luke there to "make him safe". It's the polar opposite of a safe place
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 2, 2013
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Well, they wanted to split up the twins as an extra security measure.

    But let's say they had had Obi-Wan take one twin and Yoda take another -- I can imagine how that would cause some problems since they would doubtlessly need to live near a civilization in order to have access to supplies they would need (food, just to start with). Both Obi-Wan and Yoda at that time were very wanted individuals throughout the galaxy. And right after birth would be when they would need to go out the most since Luke and Leia would need milk, diapers, trips to the doctor, etc. The early years are the ones that require the most intervention and reliance on society.

    One thing to consider, too, is that both Yoda and Obi-Wan grew up with the rest of the Jedi as a support system. They didn't have that to rely on with Luke and Leia.

    I think they realized that, for Luke and Leia's health and safety, they were going to have to hand them off to foster parents to raise, at least for the first few years.

    The problem is, if they then tried to separate them from their loved ones at an early age after attachment had occurred, they might end up with another Anakin.

    I think they realized that Luke and Leia were never going to be "unattached" Jedi that grew up in a communal setting, and thus, they were going to have to wait for them to become adults and make the decision to be a Jedi on their own. That, I imagine, is a likely rationale.

    I think you have to consider, though, that Anakin thought not only Padmé, but the unborn child, had died -- she very clearly looked pregnant during her funeral. Thus, he had no reason to go looking for his progeny. He had no reason to look into the Larses since he barely knew them and his mother - his only tie to them - was already dead. He would have no desire to revisit that time point in his life (in fact, he would zealously avoid it). Tatooine is distant and isolated from the Empire -- there's no reason for Anakin to ever look into it nor anyone else from the Empire.
  9. Minez01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2005
    star 1
    The only thing I can think of is Yoda and Obi Wan half expecting the empire to find them and hunt them down, and not wanting the kids to be around if it happened. Instead, they opted to hide the kids until (a) they grew up and (b) they were sure they were safe to train Luke. But even that is a pretty thin explanation.
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think that even taking all of this into consideration, the decision to leave Luke on Tatooine makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    It's a big galaxy
  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    That makes sense to me. I can see the logic in that. They may indeed feel the kids are safer away from them. That still leaves the problem of Luke on Tatooine though.
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  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    True, but I think here it comes down to giving Luke to someone they could trust. Leia went with one of Padmé's dearest and most trusted friends, but I don't know if there were many people they could trust to that level who lived remotely enough from the Empire's center -- Coruscant.

    The Jedi were based out of Coruscant, so many people they would have been closest too would live there -- which isn't at all an option. I think they chose the Larses precisely because they lived outside the Republic and thus the reach of the Empire would not hold sway (at least not for a good long while). Plus, C3PO lived with the Larses for a number of years and thus would have been able to testify to the fact that they were good, honorable people who had cared a lot about Anakin's mother and would be willing to take in her grandchild.

    Also, there's the fact that they might have believed that Anakin would specifically avoid it, since that was where his mother had died.

    It's an issue that's difficult to tackle because it basically comes down to the retcon of Anakin and Vader being the same person. I think Lucas tried to address it as best he could by making Anakin's memories of Tatooine highly unpleasant and making his ties to the Larses more tenuous than previously assumed. Whether it works for you is up to the individual, I suppose.
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  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think Lucas had to find a way to jam these two sets of movies together and that's how we get things like this.

    The seeds of this problem actually begin in TESB with the decision to make Vader Luke's father in the first place. But as I stated in another thread, in the OT it's actually left open as to when Vader becomes aware of Luke, or Luke's identity as his son. It's entirely possible, at least in the OT, that Vader always knew about Luke and was content to let him be. It's not until Luke inserts himself into galactic affairs that Vader begins hunting for him. Vader is already obsessed with finding him at the beginning of TESB.

    I actually prefer that way of looking at it, though I know it won't be popular among many. It makes the most sense. And I think the PT should have followed this model.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 2, 2013
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  14. Minez01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2005
    star 1
    I think, out of all that, giving Luke to people they could trust was probably the biggest part of it. Realistically, there are so many planets that are probably way outside the Empire's grasp, but leaving Luke on some backwater criminal world with someone that they didn't really know probably didn't seem like the best option. I like to think that, if there was another family living somewhere else on the outer rim they could trust, Luke would have gone there. And, in fact, it seems as though they didn't really even trust the Lars family because they sent Obi Wan to watch Luke and make sure nothing happened to him...
  15. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Do I? Or there's actually a reason that makes sense? I believe in the latter.
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  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    There's actually a big problem with this interpretation, though:

    Why didn't Vader know about Leia?

    In ROTJ, he's startled to find out that Luke has a "twin sister." And Obi-Wan says that they were hidden from their father when they were born. If Vader knew about Luke, then why would he be startled to find out that he has a daughter as well? How would he have found out about Luke only?

    Or are you only referring exclusively to ESB and excluding ROTJ?
  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    If he wasn't actually there for the birth, he wouldn't know about Leia.

    As I said, the roots of the problem begin with the idea that Vader never knew about his kids. If that is true, you would make sure it stays that way by putting them somewhere with no connection to Anakin's life of any kind. A nameless baby out of countless in a vast galaxy.

    Putting Luke there as a way to "hide" him does not pass the sniff test. It makes more sense if Vader simply knows Luke exists.

    Neither solution works well, but one works better than the other.
  18. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No, it makes no sense at all.
  19. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    I'd go with this line of thinking but the only thing that's left open for debate is taking into account Vader KNOWS of the kids. If so, Surely he must remember the homestead and his mothers history? There's nothing to suggest he doesn't? And if he gave a **** then why not investigate on the quiet. It's the one place that would've been looked into first if he was on the lookout. Or was it too obvious? Hmm...
  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Again, though, I think that creates just as big of a problem. Obi-Wan says that they were "hidden from [their] father when [they] were born." When, then would Vader have found Luke? That would also make Obi-Wan's statement rather odd.

    Plus, Vader offers Luke the chance to train with him and destroy the Emperor. If he knew about Luke for years, why would he have waited to take advantage now? It just seems more perplexing to me than what's onscreen, all things considered.
  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not sure what you mean
  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It's true, Luke being hidden there makes no sense no matter what way you look at it. It just doesn't pass the sniff test.

    As to why Vader wouldn't pursue Luke earlier. Vader clearly does have at least some concern left for Luke as evidenced by the OT. He may have been content to allow Luke to live a quiet, safe, and uneventful life out of the way on Tatooine. But the moment Luke gets involved, Vader is going to make sure it's on Vader's terms, and turn Luke into an ally against the Emperor.

    At that point, Luke is in danger no matter what Vader does anyway.
  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I suppose I just can't get around how Vader would just leave Luke there. He seems pretty ambitious in ESB and obsessed with his son - I just find it hard to believe that he left him out on Tatooine when he's shown so passionate in both ESB and ROTJ (in ESB for them to rule together and in ROTJ with connecting with Luke).

    I suppose, too, that it just seems to me a bit odd that Vader would have never questioned how Luke got there in the first place. Wouldn't he have been interested to know whether Obi-Wan or his wife had dropped Luke off? It just seems to leave a lot of threads dangling. Although it is, admittedly, a solid explanation when you only take ANH and ESB into account. ROTJ kind of confuses things a bit, though.
  24. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Yet ANOTHER plot hole.
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I just don't understand what you mean. Do you mean Vader must remember Padme?
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