PT Why didn't Yoda take the twins with him to Dagobah to be Trained as Jedi from Birth?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Chainmail_Jedi, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It doesn't matter. None of this matters. That is still one of the first places an investigation would start. There is no explaining this away in any reasonable way. Putting Luke there isn't hiding him. It's not hiding him at all.
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "If there's a bright center in the universe, you're on the planet that it's furthest from".

    Yes- Ben could have made them get off Tatooine- but that would mess up ANH, where Luke's grown up on Tatooine.
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, it's a problem that first stems from making Vader Luke's father in the first place.

    I mentioned on another thread that in the OT it is never made clear just when Vader becomes aware of Luke and his identity. It was always possible that Vader had been aware of Luke all along, and only became obsessed with finding him once Luke inserts himself in galactic affairs. VAder may have been content to let Luke live a quiet life on Tattoine up until that point. At least, as far as the OT goes.

    People assume Vader learns that identity when he talks to the Emperor, but I never bought into that.

    Now, the PT tells us a different story.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    So Vader's "How is that possible?!" is faked?
  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, I think that makes the most sense. That he never intended for the Emperor to find out about Luke.

    Now, this is just something I like to think about when watching the OT. I'm not really making the argument that is canon or anything. It's just a way I personally like to look at it. At least, when just looking at the OT on it's own.

    It's also important to note, that there was some of Lucas's patented tinkering with that scene.

    In the original dialogue, the idea that Vader already knows of Luke is quite possible.



    I wish they would have left the lines alone. Lucas drives me crazy with the endless changes to the movies.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 3, 2013
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Although he says "the Sith".

    But there is this from ROTJ: To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born.
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  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That's odd.

    I liked the approach in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader- in which Obi-Wan hears on the holonet the name Darth Vader, realizes that he survived and was rescued from Mustafar- he immediately decides to remove Luke from Tatooine- until Qui-Gon's spirit reassures him that it's not necessary.

    Hence Ben's comment sort of makes sense- originally they were being hidden just from the Emperor- but after it turns out Vader was alive, they are retroactively being hidden from Vader as well.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Apr 4, 2013
  8. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I don’t find that theory believable at all: 1) when Yoda, Bail, and Obi-Wan discuss Luke and Leia’s fate, Obi-Wan says that it’s important that the Sith must not feel their presence – you want to bait someone you don’t keep the bait hidden away. 2) if Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted to trap Vader they could use themselves as bait – I’m fairly certain Vader would jump at the opportunity to get revenge on Obi-Wan. 3) the Lars’ homestead is a very poor place to set a trap; if the plan goes wrong (and it wouldn’t take much) there is nowhere to hide. 4) in RotJ it is emphasized that Luke and Leia are their only hope for the galaxy, so it would be beyond foolish to use one of them (especially the one Obi-Wan’s has the highest hopes for) as living bait when Luke has no chance of defending himself and is completely vulnerable. 5) I just don’t think there is any way Palpatine would have let Luke be if he had discovered him earlier on Tatooine: Luke gas great Force-potential (not as much as his father, perhaps, but unlike Anakin he isn’t hindered by physical injuries), and had Palpatine found him before he started his Jedi training, he wouldn’t have to waste time turning him but could simply start training him to use the dark side of the Force. 6) Vader didn’t know his progeny had survived and therefore wasn’t looking for a child. 7) Obi-Wan stayed close to protect him so that Luke would not suffer the same fate as his grandmother or something like that, so that he could be there if Luke was discovered, and be there when it was time for Luke to begin his training.
  9. SnakeWesker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2006
    star 1
    Still not sure how this is a "prequel problem," though. It was established in 1983 that Luke's father was Anakin Skywalker, and that him and Luke were separated to keep them safe. Had the prequels changed Anakin's last name, people would have complained that Luke says it is "Skywalker" in the original trilogy.
  10. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    I personally think its a debate that has no definitive answer. Obi wan decided Luke should be raised by the Lars. Which maybe was a mistake on his part because of Anakins knowledge of the homestead and the connection and what have you. But that choice was made before the PT so its not really up for debate. It is what it is in ANH and there isn't really much to deliberate over IMO. Now, the BIG question is over Leia and why Padme had to die after giving birth. Lol
  11. Master Elaine Nega Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2013
    star 1
    The conditions there are poor... I don' t think Dagobah is a good place for children...
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  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Indeed. Yoda wouldn't have been able to feed them himself- he'd need to bring along either a wet nurse or a large supply of milk, and means to prevent it going off.
  13. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    I don't really see how it's safe to let Luke grow to be even older than Anakin was before he begins his training, and even at 9 years old Anakin was too old.
    In retrospect, it would seem that they have learned nothing from their mistake with the previous Skywalker.
    Leia, no one even bothers to watch over her, and her potential is supposedly equal to Luke's. Yeah, sure, Bail is keeping an eye on her, but what happens when she starts making stuff float around by accident? No one to guide her even in the subtlest of ways.
    Chainmail_Jedi likes this.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think Ben & Yoda figured that, since adults are trainable (it's just that it became unpopular after the last Sith War), it's best to wait till they know for sure what kind of people Luke and Leia turn out to be.

    Once they know that, they can decide "Yes, they can be trained.
  15. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    That, or they can just make sure from the very beginning that they grow up to be nice, decent people.
    Just sayin :p
  16. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    People are bored . . . and need something to complain about?
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  17. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    I don't think it would be unreasonable for Yoda to take a medical droid and supplies from Bail. He's a Senator after all, those dudes are rich. Therefore, because of the resources which would have been at Yoda's disposal through Bail, any argument against my OP which stems around Yoda's capability to care for children holds no water.
  18. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    Put too many Jedi (or potential Jedi) in the same area and you're basically just screaming for the Sith to come annihilate you. Especially once they begin their training and begin potentially causing 'disturbances in the Force' that the Emperor or Vader may pick up on (remember that, by the end of A New Hope, with Luke having only barely begun his training Vader was able to sense that the Force was strong in him). Similarly, once Vader is able to tap into Luke's use of the Force (in the time between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back) he learns that Luke is his son. Imagine how bad it would have wound up for Leia when she confronted Vader in A New Hope if he was able to sense the truth about her right then and there.

    Obi-Wan was strategically placed to watch over Luke and introduce him to the world of the Jedi when it finally became the proper time to strike the Empire. Yoda was stationed on the remote planet of Dagobah to complete Luke's training should anything happen to Obi-Wan. Leia was kept separate from all of this so that, if anything happened to Luke that put him in a position where he was unable to do what was required of him, there would always be 'another' who the Jedi could fall back on. While training Luke and Leia from an early age seems on the surface like it would have been ideal the Jedi knew that, until the reign of the Sith was overturned, it would not have been safe to have a plethora of Force users populating the galaxy during this time period. We would have simply had another Order 66 on our hands, perhaps even taken further this time (I'm looking at a Biblical parallel here, where the babies who were born within the same timeframe as Jesus who had the potential to be the Son of God were hunted down).
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  19. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    2-4 Force users is not a plethora of Force Users. With all the life on Dagobah, it would be undeniably difficult to sense any Force Users on that planet.
    Even if there was some strategy behind how they hid the twins (which is a fabrication by fans), it doesn't present a more logical alternative to at least training ONE of the twins from birth with Yoda.

    Also, you probably should avoid drawing parallels to the book which caused more deaths than Hitler and Stalin combined when speaking about a franchise designed for children.
  20. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    I'd say its more interpretation than fabrication, personally. While 'plethora' may be a bit much to describe four Jedi, the Emperor was powerful beyond the Jedi's expectations. One who could so perfectly blind the Jedi of his very existence would most certainly have a greater (if not more inwards and conceited) grasp on the Force, allowing him to possess greater ability to pinpoint, and thus exterminate, the Jedi.

    Why? Lucas never shied away from drawing parallels to the Bible. He embraced it, just as he embraced many other religions, philosophies, and ideologies.

    And I certainly wouldn't say the Bible itself caused deaths; that's more attributed to its readers who misinterpret and ignore the whole 'thou shall not kill' part of it.
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  21. Darth_Mimic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    My 2 cents...

    It's possible that the Emperor knew about Luke the whole time, and specifically kept Vader away from him in order to have a better apprentice when Vader proved himself unreliable.

    Or...

    Maybe Luke was left kind of deliberately out in the open, as a type of bait. Vader finds Luke, kills him, and everyone thinks that he was the last possible Jedi, never expecting Leia to also be a possibility. Cruel, yes, but possible (and kind of in keeping with some Jedi actions). The Jedi just didn't count on Vader not caring enough about his past to investigate it at all. Also, why would he if he thought Padme's child died with her?
  22. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    I always wondered why Leia was sent to live with the Organas on lush Alderaan and Luke was forced to live on dry, barren Tatooine?
  23. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    If the Skywalker children never use the force until trained, then the Emperor could not locate them. The GFFA is not some podunk town in backwater Iowa, no matter how small they make it seem. Was Qui Gon drawn to Tatooine by Anakin's fast reflexes or when he had visions of things before they happened? No. Qui Gon couldn't detect his force potential, so he had to test his blood. It wasn't until after Luke used the force to destroy the death star, that Sidious could sense his presence. Personally, the last planet I'd stash Luke on would be the place his father once called home, but I don't have a problem with the way it worked out... Palpatine and Vader were both duped into thinking that Padme was buried with child. End of baby search before it even got started.
  24. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I agree with the general statement you are making, I don't think an untrained Luke and Leia could be specifically sensed by the Sith, and I like the relevant touch added in ROTS (making Padme look still pregnant at her funeral). However, one point I might disagree on is if Qui-Gon could sense Anakin beforehand. When they arrive on Tatooine there is this exchange...
    Qui-Gon: "I sense a disturbance in the force."
    Obi-Wan: "I feel it also master."
    If this was not a reference to Anakin, what else would they be sensing? Perhaps you could argue that Anakin, as the chosen one, was easier to sense, but I don't know.
  25. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    How many Skywalker families are there in the GFFA? Since Skywalker is a common name and all?
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