PT Why didn't Yoda take the twins with him to Dagobah to be Trained as Jedi from Birth?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Chainmail_Jedi, Apr 2, 2013.

Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I believe they felt Darth Maul.
  2. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Possibly, but Maul wasn't on Tatooine yet, right? I like to think they are sensing Anakin, with Anakin's strong connection to balance of the force, perhaps he doesn't need to be using the force to create a disturbance. Perhaps his mere prescence in the force is readable by Jedi and Sith. Yoda does seem to sense Anakin's turn in ROTS. To me that moment during Anakin's pledge to Sidious, when Yoda senses something in the force, could indicate Yoda is feeling the force go out of balance (or further out of balance) merely by Anakin switching sides. Just a thought.
    Lady_Misty and Original Oatmeal like this.
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    How is Luke sensing when to fire on the Death Star any different than Anakin sensing when to turn during a pod race? They are essentially the same thing.
    Original Oatmeal likes this.
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Qui-Gon doesn't seem to sense anything from him in Watto's shop.

    I would tend to agree, but then again Obi-Wan says in ROTS "We must take them somewhere the Sith will not sense their presence."
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 5, 2013
  5. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Its that line that doesn't fit with all the rest. :p
  6. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    This I completely agree with. If they really wanted to make them absolutely invisible to the Sith, they would have changed Luke's last name, and hid him on a different planet that isn't the home planet of his father. It's like hiding en Easter egg in an egg carton, stupid. Leia's hiding was more logical and smart, she lost the last name and went on a completely different planet, separate from her brother.
  7. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    Vader would never go back to Tattoine - too many painful memories. Luke was fine there. As to why the twins didn't go with Yoda, I think the presence of all 3 of them in the Force would have been more than enough to render the "Dark Side Cloud" on Dagobah obsolete.
    ILNP likes this.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    When you don't think someone exists in the first place, you don't tend to go looking for him.
  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I agree. And as I had hinted earlier, I just cannot see Yoda taking two infants with him to a planet like Dagobah and raise them. I just can't see it.
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  10. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    The child is not his, and therefore he can't just take him. He does the most logical thing and take him to his family which happened to live in a very remote world.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Apr 11, 2013
  11. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Well there some things that work and something that are a bit more iffy.

    Spliting them up is sensible, as they say "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."
    At the time, Yoda and Obi-Wan would be the two most wanted men in the galaxy so them not taking the children right there is also sensible. If the empire fins them they will find the children as well.
    Bail taking Leia works, Yoda and Obi-Wan knows and trusts him. Also from ANH it seemed he knew where Obi-Wan was so he could get in touch with him. Leias name was changed which makes sense.

    Sending Luke to Owen is a bit more iffy, they don't really know Anakin and Obi-Wan has never met them so why would he trust them with something this important? For that matter how did he know they would take Luke?
    With just the OT, it is implied that Anakin and Owen lived together on Tatooine and later Anakin left with Obi-Wan.
    So then it was possible that Obi-Wan did know Owen enough to send Anakins child there. Now, Owen and Beru are strangers to Yoda and Obi-Wan and they know next to nothing about them. Also NOT changing Luke's name is also a bit odd. Sure the risk might be small but why have a small risk when you could have zero risk with just a name change? If it was Owens idea to let Luke keep his fathers name it makes some sense as Obi-Wan didn't want to risk a confrontation with Owen over this.

    Since ESB showed that both Vader and Palpatine could sense Luke when he was getting stronger in the Force, training Luke and Leia when they were small would be risky. I don't think that Palpatine sensed Luke in ANH, if he had, why did he wait three years before talking to Vader about it? Vader sensed that one rebel pilot was strong in the Force but he was right behind Luke at the time when Luke was tapping into the Force. I don't think he recognized Luke from that. They both sense him in ESB and I think that was a new thing, hence why Palpatine suddenly called Vader.

    Between films Vader has found out about Luke Skywalker and is obssesed with finding him. I think he did know that this was his son or at least he was fairly certain. I find the line change in ESB makes little sense, either Vader is quite dumb for never even suspecting that Luke was his son or he is trying to pull a very weak lie infront of Palpatine by acting dumb. The original scene worked well, have Ian there but the dialogue could be kept.

    Lastly, one thing that is a bit odd, why was only Luke sent to Yoda in ESB?
    Yoda had been watching Luke for some time and he was unhappy with what he saw. He also complained that Luke was too old. If so he has only himself to blame, he could have told Obi-Wan to bring Luke sooner but he didn't.
    But more than that, given Yodas problems with Luke, why wasn't Leia tapped?

    Both Yoda and Obi-Wan would know that after ANH both Luke and Leia are at risk, sure the Sith might not know who they are but they are rebels and openly fighting the empire. They could get killed at any point, esp since they are at the same place. So why wait and why not bring Leia as well? Yoda was not getting any younger so why delay her training for no reason?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Chances are Anakin told Obi-Wan about the Lars family. After all, the Jedi Council DID learn that Anakin had traveled to Tattooine, while serving as Padme's bodyguard in AOTC.




    Considering that Luke was the only who had began his Jedi training under Obi-Wan in ANH, why is that surprising to you?
    Last edited by DRush76, Apr 11, 2013
    ILNP likes this.
  13. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    Well how was Yoda to begin training Leia when she had no training at all? Luke had already begun some training from Obi Wan in ANH, so therefore he was more up to speed. Leia also wasn't in any shape to begin training, since she was such a vital part of the rebellion at the time.
  14. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Obi-Wan knows they exist obviously, presumably Anakin told him, but he doesn't KNOW them. He has never met them, have little to no idea what they are like or that they would take Luke or what kind of foster parents they would be.


    [/QUOTE]

    Luke had what, a five minute training session with Obi-Wan? Leia is hardly FAR behind.

    Also, to Obi-Wan and Yoda, Luke and Leia are the ONLY two people in the whole galaxy that have any chance of stopping the Sith. Stopping the Sith is vital, Yoda says so. So if only two people of an entire galaxy can do this very important thing then those two people are VERY precious. If Luke and Leia were to die then that means the Sith will never be stopped.

    So given this and given that Luke and Leia are now on the Empires radar and could be hunted down and killed. Then it follows that their lives are not something to throw away on a whim.
    If Leia is killed by the empire then they Luke is the only one left and given all the doubts Yoda had about him, why not begin Leias training as well?
    In short then have nothing to gain by waiting with Leias training, if Luke turns out well and stops the Sith then what harm is there with having a trained Leia as well? If Luke fails or is killed then Leia is their only option. So why not bring her along with Luke at the start of ESB?

    I can see no reason why Yoda/Obi-Wan would squander their resources, esp when they have so little to squander. Yoda and Obi-Wan cared little for the rebels, they knew that they would not be able to finish the job and stop the Sith, only a TRAINED Luke or Leia could do this.
    So again no reason not to bring Leia, the rebels certainly could have spared her. She never did much for the rebels after they left Hoth in ESB.

    In RotS Yoda and Obi-Wan talks about hideing the children so that the Sith would not sense them and that they be kept safe. But after ANH, they are not safe anymore. The empire is hutning them and wants them dead. So if nothing else, Leia could be brought to Dagobah and be kept safe and if Luke fails then they have Leia right there.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  15. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    First thing on the fact Obi-Wan doesn't know the Lars family well -- that may be part of the reason he goes to Tatooine to watch over Luke, as much to keep him from bad influences in his family as well as out. Bail Organa the Jedi do seem to know, and Jimmy Smits Bail strikes me as pretty persuasive when he assures the Jedi Leia will be loved by he and his wife.

    Second thing is that while Yoda and Obi-Wan might not think much of the Rebellion, there's some support in ESB that they recognise the nobility of its purpose: "If you honour what they fight for - yes" in reference to Leia and Han. I'd hypothesise that they also respect its necessity because the Rebellion gives Luke something to stand on when he confronts Vader and the Emperor.

    As to whether the Alliance could have spared Leia for the purposes of training - that's a complete unknowable, because we aren't given enough of her role in the Rebellion to know how integral or not she is to the effort. She has diplomatic connections being a former member of the Senate, and she's the public and visible face of a genocide to the Rebellion, being the last remaining member of the Alderaanian royal family. Even the Death Star's destruction didn't turn the entire galaxy to open revolt against the Emperor from what we see in the CT. I don't think it's a huge speculative leap to say Leia's diplomatic work for the Alliance was arguably just as important as the military and was a continuing role right up to the point of Endor.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Apr 11, 2013
  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But Yoda and Obi-Wan have no way of knowing that Owen would even take Luke in, they don't even know if they are still living there or if they are alive. What would Obi-Wan do if Owen either refused to take care of Luke or they weren't there anymore?
    Also Obi-Wan and Luke did know each other but it didn't seem that hew as around a lot given Owens apparent hostility towards him.

    Since accoring to Yoda, the ONLY way to stop the Sith is if Luke or Leia are trained as Jedi. They are the ONLY two choices. Simply put, in Yoda and Obi-Wans eyes, the rebellion, however good and noble, can never get the job done. If Luke and Leia aren't trained then the rebellion will fail, at least that is how Yoda and Obi-Wans sees it.

    About Leia, first after she leaves Hoth is ESB, she does nothing with regards to the rebels until after they leave Bespin so obviously the rebellion could have spared her during this time. And what did she do after that? She helped to rescue Han, nothing much to do with the rebels and she joined the team to Endor, again nothing to do with her former role as senator.
    Second, as I said, Luke and Leia are the ONLY hopes for the galaxy when it comes to stopping the Sith. The rebels have others that could do what Leia did. To Yoda and Obi-Wan Luke and Leia are irreplacable, thus they are precious beyond belief.
    Third, given all of Yoda missgivings about Luke, if the ONLY alternative is Leia, why wasn't she tapped?
    If Luke is such a bad choice then why not go with the alternative?

    Of course when ESB was written, Leia wasn't the "Other" and in some version this "Other" was already being trained in another part of the galaxy. Under this scenario it makes sense that Leia isn't called and Yodas reluctance to train Luke also works better.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    He would "watch over him", as he promised.
    Dredalus likes this.
  18. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    First up, I don't disagree there's a lot of implication left in Obi-Wan and Owen's relationship. You have to imply some communication between Obi-Wan, Owen, and Beru before we get to ROTS's final scene, or else it's utterly incomprehensible: Obi-Wan handing over an anonymous kid which Beru takes without a word and which Owen doesn't object to at all.

    (In passing, it's armchair quarterbacking and just whinging by me, but a nice, hostile scene between Obi-Wan and Owen at least would have been a treat, well worth the price of admission and well worth leaving Generally Grievously Bad off the movie for. What a missed opportunity! It need not have been plain old exposition; the heart of all drama is conflict, and you can imagine the sort of great argument Owen could have had with Obi-Wan. Owen could have easily played the "Everyman" who questions everything Obi-Wan has done in such an argument:

    "I saw that young man you trained -- my half-brother. We believe in family out here. My father loved his mother with everything he had. Her dying killed him as much as this planet and his age did. Your master took him away from here. He could've stayed here. He could've been loved. He could've been my brother. But you Jedi went and took him and filled his head with all these grand dreams, and look where it's got you now? From what you're telling me, he's killed half of you and he's helping the Empire kill the other half as we speak. And you want me to look after his son? While you're hanging around, wanting to teach him even more wizard's tricks? Well, here's my deal, Jedi. I'll take him in. So long as you keep your distance. I'll do it because he's kin, not because you want him to be a wizard like you. It's a free galaxy. You do what you want. But you keep yourself away from here and you keep yourself away from him, you hear me? He's going to grow up free and without any foolishness you plan to put in his head.")

    Second, about Yoda, Luke and Leia: bear in mind Yoda's misgivings only persist until Luke convinces him to give him the training. Until then he's not certain, but Yoda and Ben argue about the decision to train him; they don't agree that he's a lost cause at that point. And at the first conceivable point where they could think of him as a long cause - when he abandons the training and goes to Bespin - Leia isn't really available, she's a prisoner of the Empire. On the other hand, Luke then survives his duel, reunites with Leia, and doesn't fall to the Dark Side, so they probably would have figured there's no point abandoning him as yet. The time lapse between ESB and ROTJ isn't clear, but I think it's implied as pretty short. Not enough time to extricate Leia from the Alliance and send her off for Jedi training, I would've thought. Bear in mind that Yoda and Ben also have to be conscious of the fact Vader knows Luke's identity at this point and the Emperor is aware of Luke's existence also. I think they were intending to play one card out to the end and resort to Leia if Luke did in fact fail.
    ILNP and kubricklynch like this.
  19. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    First, yes a scene between Owen and Obi-Wan would have been far more intersting than the pointless waste of time that was Gen Griev. Your short scene was quite good. So sadly a wasted opportunity.

    Second, I think you missunderstand me, before Luke came to Dagobah, Yoda has serious misgivings about him.
    If Yoda and Obi-Wan had talked between ANH and ESB, reasonable I think, and they had discussed Luke and what would be done with him. Given all of Yodas objections, why wasn't Leia brought up as an alternative?

    At that point, Luke has had ONE lesson with Obi-Wan and he had showed that he had some skill but since it was one lesson, Leia would not be far behind. Also, they hid the children so that the Sith would not find them so obviously they consider them valuable. For many years Luke and Leia went unnoticed by the Sith/Empire but in ANh that changes. After ANH, both Luke and Leia are wanted by the empire and they could be killed at any time.
    If both were to die then all of Yoda and Obi-Wans plans are destroyed and the Sith will never be stopped.
    Given how much rides on Luke and Leia not being killed I find it very strange that Leia isn't brought along with Luke. Yoda has doubts about Luke so it would make sense for him to tell Obi-Wan to bring Leia along with Luke.
    If Luke turns out unsuitable then Leia is right there. Add to that, as long as Leia is on Dagobah she is fairly safe.

    After Luke leaves, Leia is for obvious reasons not avalible, but she is somehow still another hope. A bit strange that, she is in Vader grip and even if he doesn't know who she is, her odds aren't good. She would most likely be executed as a rebel. After Luke manages to flee Bespin he showed that he will no fall so easily and still could pull though and as you say, the passage of time is unclear. Personally I think that a few weeks, perhaps a couple of months have passed between ESB and RotJ.
    But my point was not that Yoda should try and get Leia after Luke leaves. My point was that it would have made more sense to bring BOTH Luke and Leia to Dagobah at the start of ESB. Yoda and Obi-Wan has nothing to gain by letting Leia run around and be hunted by the empire and plenty to loose if she is killed or captured.

    Yoda could train both of them, that way he gets two new Jedi instead of just one. And if one doesn't work out or is killed, the other is trained and ready.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
  20. MRCynical Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2008
    star 1
    I don't know if they ever intended Luke to voluntarily go before the emperor. I think they were training him so he'd be prepared if Vader caught up with him, but hoping that the Rebel Alliance might do the job (e.g. defeating Vader in a fleet battle?)
    Dredalus likes this.
  21. Ambervikings91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    because the prequels came out later on so they had to connect the story as best they could and they couldn't work around the fact that the original star wars film doesn't support that
    Samnz, Dredalus and Alexrd like this.
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Stepbrother, not half-brother. Owen is not Shmi's son.

    Still, the idea's good. In The Life And Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi, we do get some conversations between Ben and Owen, but nothing exactly like that. Owen does warn Ben to stay away from Luke, primarily because if he hangs about too much, people will wonder why, and it may get back to the Empire.
  23. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    How is Yoda supposed to take care of 2 new born babies in a planet with no technology???
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And no place to get diapers! [face_sick]
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  25. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Luke would've been used to Yoda's food by the time of ESB. :p
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 21, 2013
    Slash78, TOSCHESTATION and Lady_Misty like this.
Moderators: Bazinga'd