Why do other countries not feel the same urgency about the war on terrorism?

Wouldn't say "did not care", Tupolev. I would say "Did not share the same sense of urgency." We did care. Some people used to their advantage, like Vladimir Vladimirovich did to secure the Russian position the Chechnans. But I'd say the only people who didn't care where those who wanted this to happen - the Islamic Extremists.

E_S

 

My physical characterists have nothing to do with this discussion, rsterling78. They are as irrelevant as my nationality, which you also chose to critisize. I demand you remove my picture. If it is not gone by tomorrow morning, I will speak to the moderators about this matter.

The fact that I get flamed for complimenting a mature, intelligent poster is absolutely sickening.

I did not say "Most Americans are arrogant," Yodave. I said that many Americans are arrogant. I challenge you to find a single non-American on this board that would disagree with me on that.

 

Oh, lighten up, AT_60. There's no "flaming" here. Let's look at that post of yours one more time:

The fact that you are American (and thus experience the bias of the news and the arrogance of many of the people) and still see the truth earns you much respect in my mind.

Translation: It impresses me to no end that a troglodyte, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging American can see through his own self-importance and still pick out the truth to which only enlightened members of the species Europeanis northamericanus are privy.

That's pretty inflammatory and insulting. If you want to bash America, that's fine. Your opinion is as valid as any. But don't get all upset if you get a little good-natured ribbing in return.

Besides, my post has "timed-out." I can't remove that noble Canadian mug of yours. Ask Moderator KW. He'll take care of it.

And relax, chief. It's just a message board.

 

I do not appreciate you warping what I said. This is what I was trying to say:

Out of patriotism, most Americans do not like to analyze the reasons for anti-American sentiment. They do not want to be subjected to critisizm. I watch CNN regularly. I see the bias. They do not want to admit that their government has done things in the world that has upset people enough to justify murder in their minds. I respect those who look at the issues from all sides - the side of the American people, and the side of those who are against them.

I fail to see what is wrong with that.

 

Out of patriotism, most Americans do not like to analyze the reasons for anti-American sentiment. They do not want to be subjected to critisizm. I watch CNN regularly. I see the bias. They do not want to admit that their government has done things in the world that has upset people enough to justify murder in their minds. I respect those who look at the issues from all sides - the side of the American people, and the side of those who are against them.

Ok, I see. I mean I think all British have bad dental hygeine. I dare you to find a non-British person on this board who thinks otherwise. Oh and I watch BBC, so I know how bad their teeth are. They don't want to admit that they fear the toothbrush so they ignore it.

Sarcasm aside, do you understand how often you use sterotypes in your arguments. Not just in this case, but in other threads as well. I live in America, I don't see the arrogance, I see regular people trying to get through each day. And CNN is probably the worst place to form an opinion on American citizens.

 

It is my understanding that CNN is considered to be a very moderate news station, so if there is such a place for non-Americans to go to get a positive impression of Americans, it's there...

I believe it is wrong to say that all Americans are arrogant. But I believe that many are. Power corrupts. It goes to the head. America is the world's only superpower. Do you mean to tell me that that status does not affect the mindset of many Americans when it comes to international politics?

Yes, Americans are regular people who are trying to get through each day. But a lot of them are doing it while believing that their nation and their nation alone is blessed by God, and that their nation is always right. I see a lot of that here on the boards. In my opinion, it's not a good way to live.

I'm not trying to bash or flame here. I have many American friends. People who arn't arrogant. I'm just saying that there are many that are... too many. And it is because of them that America is disliked around the world.

 

I'd dare you to try that stuff with me, Yodave. I do bash America. Why? Not because it's cool, but because as someone who grew up in the most Americanised nation on the planet, I had a certain ideal of America. An ideal that was shattered as I learned the truth about US Foreign Policy. I am a person, who like many Australians, focus' on the world at large - part of what I believe to be our cultural insecurity. And I studied under various professors who were neither pro- nor anti-American, and my knowledge shattered that ideal. America proports to be the last bastion of freedom and democracy, and seemingly at every turn it has denied those exact values to people worldwide. I have read of actions committed with an almost callous disregard for the outcome. Sept. 11 was that outcome. Sorry, guys, but it's true. You want the most symbolic, represenative statement out there, to date?

This statement, I believe is the most truthful admission on the Senate Floor, and, I would submit, exactly what every one of us has been trying to say:

I live in America, I don't see the arrogance

Exactly. You don't see it. But trust us, it is there. And that wouldn't be such a bad thing if it wasn't tied to a complete lack of responsibilty.

And rsterling, AT_60 is right. There is no need to be so damn childish and petty. If you can't argue facts, then don't post.

E_S

 

AT60:

"It is my understanding that CNN is considered to be a very moderate news station..."

LOL! Piece of advice: if you think CNN has a "pro-American bias," then don't watch FOX News unless you pre-medicate with Xanax.

(P.S. Why is Canadian bacon round?)


E_S:

I think the view by many non-Americans on this board that we are arrogant is perhaps the result of feelings of inferiority by other nation-states. It's a defense mechanism. It's much more psychologically satisfying to think of America as arrogant, than to acknowledge one's own feelings of national inferiority.

Few Americans are arrogant. We're a pretty tolerant and easy-going people. While most of us aren't arrogant, we are a confident people. That's why when we are attacked on these boards we fight back, but we do so in a kind of joking and lighthearted way.

(P.S. What's the story with kangaroos, anyway?)

 

It is my understanding that CNN is considered to be a very moderate news station, so if there is such a place for non-Americans to go to get a positive impression of Americans, it's there...

CNN is the most liberal-biased media outlet in America. You shouldn't base you opinions on a countries people based on a news outlet. Nor should you do it based on the amount of people you meet here.

I believe it is wrong to say that all Americans are arrogant. But I believe that many are. Power corrupts. It goes to the head. America is the world's only superpower. Do you mean to tell me that that status does not affect the mindset of many Americans when it comes to international politics?

The only people who that mindset affects is the politicians. And a majority of Americans don't even care about politics, why? Because they don't vote. Obviously they don't care about politics if they don't go oout and vote.

Yes, Americans are regular people who are trying to get through each day. But a lot of them are doing it while believing that their nation and their nation alone is blessed by God, and that their nation is always right. I see a lot of that here on the boards. In my opinion, it's not a good way to live.

I think you mistake pride in ones country for a superiority complex.

I'm not trying to bash or flame here. I have many American friends. People who arn't arrogant. I'm just saying that there are many that are... too many. And it is because of them that America is disliked around the world.

I thought it was because of our foreign policies? It seems to me that being Anti-American is the "in" thing to do today.

Now for Ender Sai:
I'd dare you to try that stuff with me, Yodave. I do bash America. Why? Not because it's cool, but because as someone who grew up in the most Americanised nation on the planet, I had a certain ideal of America. An ideal that was shattered as I learned the truth about US Foreign Policy.

I thought America was the most Americanized nation on the planet?

I am a person, who like many Australians, focus' on the world at large - part of what I believe to be our cultural insecurity.

Well many Americans don't focus on the world at large, they tend to focus on their immediate surroundings. Wheter or not you agree with it, it's how things are here. Do I wish that some Americans could think a little more globally, yes. But, it shouldn't be an indictment on an entire people just because we don't think that way.

This statement, I believe is the most truthful admission on the Senate Floor, and, I would submit, exactly what every one of us has been trying to say:

I live in America, I don't see the arrogance

Exactly. You don't see it. But trust us, it is there. And that wouldn't be such a bad thing if it wasn't tied to a complete lack of responsibilty.

Oh, ok I'll trust you. After all, you have a better grasp of those that live in my country than I do. You see the arrogance in all the people I deal with on a daily basis. I'm just blind. Thank you for helping me see.

(Please note that there is a little bit of sarcasm in that last post. Not a lot, though)

 

"Well many Americans don't focus on the world at large, they tend to focus on their immediate surroundings."
-Yodave27

Exactly. It takes a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11 to get us to quit minding our own business.

And when we do "interfere" in various parts of the world -- France, West Germany, Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan -- the result is more freedom, more democracy, more prosperity, more security, in short, things get a hell of a lot better due to our intervention.

The same thing is about to happen in Iraq.

 

Here is my super-intellectual contribution to this thread:

I think AT60 is cute. He shouldn't be embarassed by his picture being posted at all.

 

Well, consider this, Yodave: Australians are the most travelled people on the planet. Per capita, that is. We are also more likely to see Europe, Asia or the Americas before we see the rest of our own country. And we live in a nation that struggles to understand it's place in the world today. I think that the fact that all the Aussies here know more about US 20th C history than the Americans know about Australian history in the same time frame. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say "America's best ally is Israel/UK" when in fact, the nation to support the US consistently through every initiative - including Vietnam - is Australia.
But, I digress. Australians travel a lot. We see the world, and we understand it fairly well. And I do believe Americans are arrogant. I don't believe this is an intentional "Let's be global a**holes!" thing, I think it's due to having such a generally high quality of life. And I'd wager I know a lot more Americans than you do Australians. Maybe you don't have much to compare Americans with in terms of measuring arrogance - save the French! - but you'd be hard pressed to find many non-Americans who, even reluctantly, would concede that Americans are wonderful people who just happen to be arrogant.
And how the hell can America be "Americanised"? You didn't think about that did you? For America to be Americanised, it would have to be something else first, which would negate the existence of a cultural "America" and thus result in a conundrum. It's like democratising democracy dude. Australia is the most Americanised nation insofar as we have turned from one cultural focus - Anglo-European - to American. Get it?
I hope this won't get too far off topic. This isn't an American-bashing/American loving thread. Some people have to turn off their America-hater [tm] filter, some have to turn off their Patriotic Filter [tm], and get down to the core issues here - terrorism. And what I don't get is; do you guys actually believe there is a reason behind the US being a target that's not based on envy? Do you think it was a provoked attack by a group who coldly used civillian targets to make a statement, or just a random act of grand-scale murder?
E_S

 

"Here is my super-intellectual contribution to this thread:

I think AT60 is cute. He shouldn't be embarassed by his picture being posted at all."


There ya go, AT60! I found you a girlfriend! Uh-oh, she's an American! Is she arrogant? Why don't you guys personal message each other and arrange a meeting? You could meet in neutral territory, in the middle of Lake Superior, or something.

Maybe you guys could, um, improve American-Canadian relations.


rsterling78
matchmaker

 

other countries support the war on terrorism. they don't support us attacking iraq. there is a difference there.

 

I believe that it was a provoked attack that ended up killing people that had nothing to do with the issues at hand....save living in the country with which they have a conflict.

I think that by using civilian targets the message that they were trying to convey is lost in the deaths of innocent people. It falls on ears that are not deaf but drowned out by the sorrowful cries of a nation in mourning.

I said it before and I'll say it again: The message and all past transgressions will take a backseat to revenge in America right now. He hit us in a way that was not done to him so in a lot of people's minds he struck first and we will strike last. It's hard to separate the emotion, especially when many people don't want to let it go. They are thriving on it right now. We have that cowboy attitude that nobody does anything to us and gets away with it. Sadly, this is one of the things that led to this incident and few people realize it. They feel that this attitude is natural and healthy and that it's nothing more than believing you live in the best country in the world.

The fury that is causing this breakdown in rational thought is derived from the fact that he chose civilian targets. Make no mistake, he didn't just want to send his message. If that were all he wanted to do then hitting military targets would have been sufficient.

He wanted two things, amongst countless others, to happen. He wanted to show that the US is not the impenetrable fortress it purports to be. He did that. He also wanted to show the ineffective ability of the US to adequately destroy him or his cause. He wanted to make us seem like buffoons. He has done that as well.

By continuing the course of action that we employed for the last year we would insure that nothing would have ever been accomplished. He knew that the wars we know how to fight are not his wars. We are starting to learn that. Slowly, but surely.

American arrogance exists. So does French arrogance. So does Australian arrogance and Canadian arrogance. It exists in any place in which you feel you have a good life and that the opportunities for you are not limited by anything but your own desire not to achieve them. That breeds arrogance.

The arrogance that the US has is in direct correlation to our history and the ways in which we have grown. We weren't granted our independence. We won it. From the very beginning we had the attitude that we were winners. We were the top. We were going to create the best society on this planet. That feeling has only increased with time and success.

I don't consider myself any more arrogant than anyone else (unless it comes to film ) but I can definitely see how it would come across that way to someone on the outside. I don't chalk it up to pride either. You can have pride and still understand that you are no better than anyone else, regardless of nationality, but you can look at the things that you value in your life and you can look at other countries and make an educated (or not so educated in some cases) guess on what the odds are that you would enjoy all that you hold dear in the ways that you hold it dear in that other country. For most Americans, in my experience at least, they don't see the benefits of another country. They see the drawbacks. They see the things that they don't, won't, or could never have in that country and they feel just a little bit better inside because they feel fortunate to be in a place in which they do have them. America is a fairly self-centered country. Some of us are working to rise above it though

 

Firstly I agree with the statement of the war on terror being a sham. It's just a hunt for one guy because the American people wanted blood.
Countries that haven't been atacked don't feel the need to go fight a war that isn't about them. Also do you know how much it costs to run a military campaign?? a heck of a lot and some countries would prefer to ust that money to benefit their own country.

 

Yodafett999, that is, IMHO, the most eloquent and intelligent post to this thread yet. You have acknowledged everything I wished I would see an American post; the fact Sept. 11 was provoked, the fact that the emotion is dictating matters now and has become estranged from rational thought. And you are absolutely right; every first world nation has a degree of arrogance.

I agree that the cowboy attitude is hurting the US Govt more than aiding it; but it seems a message so few will concede. I can tell you this; we, in the Land of Oz, don't want to see the US attacked again. Why? We don't like people suffering. And you know that of the major English speaking nations out there, we are one of the most stable. And yet we risk that stability to put our soldiers in harms way to show our support for the USA. Just consider that.

E_S

 

E_S is right. When other countries do help, they are not respected by America, so they don't feel a desire to help again.

Take Canada, for example. When the US was attacked, Canadians stood up and said "we have to do something about this." So, we committed troops to the operation in Afghanistan. During the campaign, an irresponsible American pilot dropped a bomb on Canadians while they were training, killing 4 and injuring 8. It was all over the Canadian news for days. There was very little mention of it in the States. Many Americans didn't even know our boys were over there, even after the incident. Bush apologized to the Prime Minister, but to this day, the Canadian people and the families of the dead have not heard Bush express his condolances to them. A few weeks later, the Canadian national anthem was booed repeatedly at sporting events. That went a long way toward fueling anti-Americanism in Canada. We sent our boys to fight America's war, and America ignored our contribution. When an American killed our boys, we were still not shown the respect we deserved. We were shown disrespect.

Now, Bush wants to start another war. This one in Iraq. This time, Canada is saying "no support from us."

I ask you this: can you blame us?

 

Thank you for the kind words, Ender

I think there are many people in this country who really do appreciate everything that foreign nations and their citizens have done to help us along. Not only in this current situation but in all others that have come before it since our nation's inception. Some people seem to have a short term memory when it comes to the support we have received in most facets of our growth and they like to think we did it all by ourselves. I like to think they are few and far between but sometimes I wonder.

AT_60, I can't blame you one bit. I really can't. If I were in that situation I very likely would feel the same way. It has always troubled me that our foreign allies and brothers in arms don't get the recognition here that they so richly deserve. They are often times the unsung heroes and they don't deserve that status. They should be heralded for their courage and bravery and lauded for their contributions that are sorely needed and, often times, come at a price that they have no obligation to pay. If I could fix that, I would.

 

I agree with Chibiangi on this issue.

 

"During the campaign, an irresponsible American pilot dropped a bomb on Canadians while they were training, killing 4 and injuring 8. It was all over the Canadian news for days. There was very little mention of it in the States."

For once, I agree with you, AT60, although whether the pilot's action were irresponsible or not is still being determined. Our media should have given more coverage to this tragedy. It's horrible to think that those brave Canadians gave their lives due to a friendly fire incident.

For those of you who are not familiar with this incident, on 17 April 2002, American Major Harry Schmidt dropped a 500 pound (225 kilogram) bomb on a group of Canadian soldiers near Kandahar. Schmidt misinterpreted live fire exercises by the Canadians as hostile fire from the enemy.

The incident is still under investigation.

 

I think there are many people in this country who really do appreciate everything that foreign nations and their citizens have done to help us along. I agree Yodafett. Thank God for the French for example, it was with their money, troops and aid to the Americans during the revolutionary war beat England and became the United States of America. I am very greatful to them...oh they also gave us the Statue of Liberty!

 

SOK Well I am glad we have reached a consensus on this very important topic

rsterling I said he was a cute boy. I never said I wanted to uh...you get the picture. So I will leave the romancing between you and him since you work so well together.


*prances off*

 

Why do people insist on bringing my personal life into this thread? Thank you for your kind words, chibiangi and Saint. rsterling78, I already have a girlfriend, and she was born and raised in the USA, so quit assuming that I have an aversion to all Americans.

Now enough about me. This topic is supposed to be about the war on terrorism.

 

I think there are many reasons why other countries aren't supporting the U.S. as much as they could.

I think the main reason we aren't supported as much is because we aren't liked. I'll give 4 reasons.

First, Europe has one of the largest Islamic populations outside the Mid-East. As Germany showed, come election time they need to pander to everyone they can.

Second, those in power in Europe have something of a bias towards America. When I lived in Europe from August 1998 - July 2001, I saw a duality in nature concerning the U.S. The news papers in Germany would talk about how the politicians were considering closing all U.S. bases. But everyone on street level wouldcrowd around me when they found out I was an American. They would talk about how great America was, and how bad Germany was (I disagreed with them of course, I loved Germany).
And in the French country side, I was treated with great respect. Example: an elderly gentleman in Normandy bought me a drink as thanks for what we did on D-Day. But when I got to Paris, I was treated as a virtual pariah.

Third, many in the Mid-East hate us for our percieved "occupation" of Saudi Arabia. They seem to forget that if we weren't there, they would all be Iraqis right now.

Fourth, we support Israel. 'Nuff said as the EU supports the Palastinians.