PT Why do people defend Dooku?

Is Dooku older than Palpatine??

 

yep I believe so

 

I'm not sure...as of AOTC Dooku is supposed to be in his 80's, so it's quite possible. In the original canon at least.

 

Count Dooku was a villain through and through. Why do people defend him? They don't understand the ramifications of what's going on in the movies? They haven't paid attention to the plot? They are role playing (because they want to be a Sith)? Could be anything...

As others have said, by the end of AOTC it should be obvious that Dooku is not being honest about why he is starting the Separatists movement. I think some people just don't follow the bread crumbs that are laid out in front of them. Some people just need to have everything explained on screen. The bread crumbs of the Dooku character are there, however, you need the end of the movie to fidn out where the breadcrumbs start. The end of the movie should change how you look at everything that has transpired before that.

At the end of the movie we find out that Dooku is in fact Darth Tyranus, Sith apprentice to Darth Sidious. So with the revelation of that name, we now know it was Dooku that hired Jango as the template for the Clone Army. So we now know Dooku is aware of and an integral part of the plan to play the Republic against the Separatists in a war. Dooku has to be fully aware of the fact that this war will kill billions and ravage hundreds of planets. He obviously doesn't care. While there is the reality that war is sometimes necessary, to create an unnecessary war and not care of it's ramifications is something completely different.

We know Dooku is aware that there is never a plan for peace between the Republic and the Seps, the negotiations are all a ruse. There is only ever going to be a war, and that was it. This completely destroys any credibility Dooku may have of being against the corruption of the Republic, because he knows that the end game is for the Republic to survive as an Empire, which is just a different form of corruption (dictatorship). He knows the side he is on (the Seps) are the ones to be destroyed.

So back to the breadcrumbs... So Dooku is Tyranus, hence Dooku hired Jango for the template of the Clones. This proves Dooku knows of and the purpose of the clones. Even though he tried to play dumb with the seps at Geonosis by acting surprised the Jedi had amassed a huge army. So Dooku knows about the Clones and their purpose. Sifo Dyas was killed before the clones were ordered, so it was not Sifo Dyas that made the order. However it had to be a Jedi, because whomever ordered the clones, also erased the records of Kamino from the Jedi Archives. This all again points too Dooku and that Dooku is an integral part of the Sith conspiracy. What this leads to is an important fact about Dooku...

Dooku had to be turned by Sidious into Darth Tyranus before Dooku left the Jedi Order. If Dooku was the one that erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives (which I am convinced he is the one that did), and only a Jedi could do it, than that translates into Dooku still being a member of the order when he erased the files. However, if he erased the files because he knew of the plot to create the clone army, than Dooku had to have been turned by Sidious as well and before he left the order. What this all means is that Dooku didn't leave the Jedi Order because of his dissatisfaction with the Republic. He left in order to fulfill his masters plan of starting the Clone Wars. Dooku may have been dissatisfied with the Republic, but, it was his new Sith way of thinking that resulted in him finally leaving the order.

Like I said the breadcrumbs are there that point to Dooku being an evil villain, and not some misguided political idealist that got in over his head. There is a lot of intent on Dooku's part that shows his actions are callous, self-serving, and villainous.


Edit: While this may be a bad example, the end of AOTC is in some ways the same as the Sixth Sense. The end of the Sixth Sense contains the key that unlocks all the clues that are seen through out the movie, we just aren't aware that they were clues. Same goes for AOTC, the revelation that Dooku is Tyranus is the key that unlocks all the clues that Obi Wan uncovers during his adventures.

 

Great points. The one error I would point out is that Dooku didn't need to literally still be a Jedi to access the archives. He could have come back after he had left to do so. Either in an official capacity as a formal Jedi, or in secret/disguise. Either way he knew whatever protocol or password was provided. I don't beleive Dooku would have fallen to the dark side before the death of Qui-Gon. Which is (original continuity) backed by the Plagueis novels.

 

It could be that some such as me simply perceive Dooku differently than the 'villain, end all be all' crowd. It doesn't make us stupid as some imply either. For me it's because there is a depth, a reagality, an intelligence to Lee's Dooku that is just lacking in the other Sith apprentices. He reads as having a noble spirit that was betrayed and misled.

Difference in perception does NOT equal 'we don't understand the character or plot'.

Dooku is awesome.

 

up until now i didn't know people defend him.

 

I disagree that an ex-Jedi can access the archives. I am sure there are protocols in place other than a password. It is specifically explained that only a Jedi can access the archives, not an ex-Jedi, or someone knowing the password. Passwords can be leaked, so to me there is a technological aspect that recognizes who can and cannot erase the archives.

Lucas also wants to make sure that it is understood at the beginning of the movie that Dooku is an ex-Jedi as explained by Mace. Mace's dialogue establishes the fact that when you leave the order, you are no longer considered a Jedi.

Yoda is deeply disturbed by the fact that someone erased the archives because as he put it "only a Jedi could have erased those files". It is a definitive statement not open to much leeway. Yoda is worried because it suggests treason among the Jedi.

Dooku was an ex-Jedi, and even though he had Jedi training, I am sure his house keys to the temple were taken away and his ability to interact with the archives was stopped. This makes sure that the archives can truly only be changed by a Jedi.

Furthermore we have Obi Wan looking at Dooku's bust in the archives, as Dooku was one of the lost 20. To me this was an important piece of juxtaposition (Sith vs Jedi), and with it happening in the archives it's a hint to the conversation that Obi Wan is about to have with Jocasta Nu.

 

Now you do. I never understood why it's cool to like some misled characters and not others but whatever. Dooku is my fave film char and my fave Sith (totally reads as a Grey to me).

 

While I don't disagree entirely about the depth or intelligence of the character, however, those qualities aren't the end all, be all. There are his actions, and his actions do not suggest he was mislead one bit. His actions suggest he knew the master plan (except the point where Anakin was to replace him) and he didn't care about the consequences of those master plan. He engaged in negotiations that he knew were all a ruse, because he knew a war was coming anyway. So he was lying.

The only part where he was misled was the part of ruling by Sidious' side, and he didn't realize that til Palpatine ordered Anakin to cut of his head. The surprise look on Dooku's face completely gives away that this character fully understood what he was doing to that point and he thought he was going to be part of the plan going forward...

Dooku is a villain, he may be an awesome villain, but he is still a villain...

I don't think anyone is saying you can't like a villain. However, to ignore some pretty nasty things a character does in order to like him or call him "grey" is what I think is the problem...

 

For some, not others.

 

I know... you and I have had this conversation before (I think it was you), except it was the Empire/Rebel thing. I would love to get into your head and figure out why you romanticize the villains ...

 

Shoot me a PM maybe. I am willing to talk but I don't like to argue. We see things differently and that's fine but it doesn't mean either of our stances are without cause.

 

i understand what you are saying . i wonder if it can be considered canon the ROTS novel where with his inner monologue he's looking down on alien species and Anakin having a mechanical arm? That didn't put him in such a good light.

 

Agreed but I don't follow books on the whole. When it comes to the Sirs (Cushing and Lee as Tarkin and Dooku) I go solely on the film for Peter as yet and the films, Nightsister Arc, and Y: DR for Dooku. I am very select because very few acknowledge they are men and that disturbs me. Anyone wants to call them names or insist they are black or such go ahead but doesn't mean everyone agrees certainly not me.

 

It's possible to have "depth, regality, and intelligence" and yet have squandered a once noble spirit.

It's like Tolkien's Saruman - once a great and noble wizard - he becomes petty, spiteful and cruel, and ends up dying unrepentant.

 

You can disagree with it, but ultimately the idea that Dooku did so after his departure in corroborated in Darth Plagueis. In the new timeline, perhaps they will change that idea. I don't think there are temple "house keys" since Senator woudl routinely go into the temple to confer with the Council. Also Dooku was in good standing with Jocasta Nu, I'm sure he would have had no trouble distracting her and somehow getting himself access to the archives.

 

Indeed so but for me Dooku isn't such a one.

 

What, during the ROTS Dooku scenes, indicates that Dooku's "spirit is still noble" to you?

I can't think of any obvious "noble moments".

 

I'm not doing this game, IL. We see Dooku and Tarkin differently. Good day.

 

I'm trying to find out what in-movie evidence led to your extremely unusual view of them.

 

I have explained already and you ignore it. So what's the point?

 

My memory may be faulty - but I don't recall any evidence - only statements.

Maybe you could provide a link to your posts that have the aforesaid evidence? I've been searching the forum for your posts - but all I can find are assertions.

 

I'm done with this.