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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Why do people hate Return of the Jedi?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by ratmankey, Mar 30, 2003.

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  1. Mace Windy

    Mace Windy Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 1999
    Has everyone recieved their Return of the Jedi's 20th Aniversary copy of Insider.

    After reading the issue, its impossible not to like this movie.
     
  2. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 1999
    I dont necessarily have a problem with the concepts of Ewoks per ce. Its the manner in which they were portrayed that is bothersom. A fully mechanized, armed Imperial army is utterly defeated by two foot teddy bears weilding slingshots and hang-gliders. I think the idea of a primitive forest-dwelling race rising up to drive out their industrialized conquerers is a fantastic idea, but unfortunatly, if the Rebels had employed the Care Bears, they would been just as well off. Had the Ewoks been portrayed as a dignified, primitive race of warriors, at least something more believable than midgets and children in halloween costumes, it would have worked and i would have loved it.
    The "muppet-factor", as some have called it, isnt as much a bother at all; i thought that Jabba's palace worked perfectly. It had great, bizarre aliens and none are really dwelt upon except Jabba himself. It was like the Cantina. And the scene just wouldnt have worked if it was populated by humans instead. And besides, it ties the series to the PT better, since aliens are much more absent than people remember.
    As for characters, the only thing that stands out is Leia as Lukes sister, and i admit, this is a major plot point in the saga which will be dissapointing to see if the viewer watches the series in order I-VI.

    But for all its flaws its still a great film, if only for the final confrontation in the Throne room and the ultimate fate of Anakin.
     
  3. Naccha

    Naccha Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 1999
    I loved ROTJ but I thought ESB was a better movie. Wasn't crazy about the ewoks, but you know, kids love them and SW is for everybody, kids included.

    sellars1996 Harrison Ford looked absolutely bored and like he'd rather be playing Indiana Jones. Carrie Fisher looked like she mailed this one in, but from all accounts, she was heavily into drugs at this point, and it shows. I also used to think that Mark Hamill was not believable as a Jedi.

    I agree with sellars on Harrison Ford. He looked bored to me too. In fact, I read that it wasn't even definite he would be back to do ROTJ, so it looks like he was there just doing GL a favor. Carrie was okay...But I thought Mark Hamill was excellent. He seemed like a full Jedi to me. Luke really matured by ROTJ and Mark really did a fine job showing that.
     
  4. sellars1996

    sellars1996 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Naccha (hope I did not misspell it), I could not agree with you more on Mark Hamill. I have been more impressed with his acting the more I watch ROTJ. The duel with Vader, unmasking of Vader, and the funeral pyre scene are touching. The range of emotions on his face are wonderful and he conveys them all in a believable manner without saying a word.

    Mark Hamill was SW for me as a kid, and this nice guy does not get anywhere near the credit he deserves. It's a shame that Harrison Ford is the only main actor from the OT who has gone on to superstar status. Mark's work is grossly underappreciated by his peers and the public at large.
     
  5. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    I completely agree with that. While Harrison looks irritated to have been called back to do another film throughout most of RotJ, Mark Hammill gives a stellar performance most people ignore simply because they don't like his character. I would say the fact that he comes across as troubled in RotJ is a sign he plays the part very well.



    :cool: Mace Windy,
    this signature blows!
     
  6. Qonas

    Qonas Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2003
    He definitely looked like he was phoning it in, but it was still a pretty passable performance. Again, reading the posts, I don't think too many people hate or even dislike ROTJ, it's just the fact that the Ewoks completely take out the most elite troops of the Empire. That part just doesn't sit right, and as someone said, it's a great idea and it would've worked were the natives not a foot tall, using stone arrows and logs that magically appeared out of nowhere. Is there really any defense for this part of the movie? Wouldn't it have been better off if the Ewoks were more like, say, the Noghri?
     
  7. DarthSil

    DarthSil Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Dark Lady Mara:

    I agree about Luke's performance in ROTJ. It was really over the top and his relationships in the film with Leia and Vader are what made the film my all time fave.
     
  8. Master_Akwat_Kbrana

    Master_Akwat_Kbrana Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2001
    You can't be serious can you Master_Akwat_Kbrana? You might want to read up the changes made that aren't so obvious unless your really looking out for them. Have a look at the link that goes to the Star Wars Special Edition Annotations? in my signature.

    Hmm. You're right, actually. I've been to http://www.jax-inter.net/~datalore/starwars/sepage.htm which is the most complete site concerning special edition changes I've found. I was totally forgetting about some of the enhancements that did do justice to the movie (the rope around han's foot, updating the shadows under the barge's, etc.) Even still, I feel the original is immensely superior to the SE.
     
  9. Darth_Malfoy

    Darth_Malfoy Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2003
    I agree with you, Jedi_Learner, most of the changes in the SE are good. There is, however, that truly stupid extention of the band playing in Jabba's Palace. I think that little furry singer with the deep voice has got to be the worst CG effect ever. :mad: I love ROTJ, including the Ewoks. :) It is unlikely that they could have defeated the Empire, if this was real life. It's not. It's FANTASY. [face_mischief]
     
  10. eaglejedi

    eaglejedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2001
    People hate Return of the Jedi? Heretics! To the stake with them! ;) It's my favorite, actually, because of the Jedi/Sith stuff, especially the final confrontation aboard the Death Star.

    I have little problem with the Ewoks. It could have been made more realistic, when they defeated the Emperor's best troops, but otherwise, they are at least better than our least favorite Gungan (please Vader, put him out of his misery in E3).

    I don't understand what's wrong with the SE ending music. I like both, actually. The original piece seems to be more about the Ewoks and the sortof victory party for the battle itself. The one from the SE relates more to galactic situation and the Force and the events that have just transpired, and their effects.

    I'm tired of hearing that garbage about Carrie Fisher being on drugs in ROTJ (sometimes people also include parts of TESB). I don't see what's wrong with her acting in the movie. It's much better than that of some of the actors in the PT, who are painful to watch. She never seems to act like she's on drugs to me. But then, I'm never expecting to see that when I watch it. [face_plain] You can see a lot of things in an actor's performance if you've already made up your mind that they're there.
     
  11. Jedi_Learner

    Jedi_Learner Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2002
    I'll check that link out then Master_Akwat_Kbrana. Thanks. :)
     
  12. ratmankey

    ratmankey Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    The only time Carrie's ever looked to be on drugs to me is in the Holiday Special...but then, EVERYBODY involved in that was probably on drugs. (Wookiee porn, anyone?)

    I agree about Harrison's performance in ROTJ. It's pretty obvious he didn't want to be there...plus his "wisecracks" are really cheesy ("Hey, it's me!") as opposed to the genuinely funny dialogue in the other two (especially Empire).

    "Empire was so much darker. The bad guys win, Luke loses his hand, Vader reveals he's Luke's father...it ends on such a DOWN note, like real life. All Jedi had was a bunch of Muppets." - Dante, "Clerks"

    I personally love the aliens in Jabba's palace. That's one argument I never understood, since if anything the aliens in Jabba's palace are even cooler/more bizarre than the ones in the cantina. And Salacious Crumb rocks, I don't care what anone says.

    I guess if I had any REAL complaints about ROTJ, it would be Boba's pitiful death, and the fact that Lando doesn't really do anything. They could've at least given him some more classic pimp-tacular lines. ("Hellooooooo, what have we here?")
     
  13. ratmankey

    ratmankey Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    It just occured to me, there is one other thing about ROTJ that bugs me: Han forgives Lando way too easily. Luke, Leia, and Chewie have had a whole year to get over his betrayal, but Han just doesn't strike me as the type to forgive and forget so easily.

    This is what worries me about Episode III...there's SO much that needs to be wrapped up/resolved/explained, and I don't see how they can give all the issues the attention they deserve.
     
  14. SLR

    SLR Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2002
    "It just occured to me, there is one other thing about ROTJ that bugs me: Han forgives Lando way too easily. Luke, Leia, and Chewie have had a whole year to get over his betrayal, but Han just doesn't strike me as the type to forgive and forget so easily."

    Yeah, but Han really trusted Luke, Leia, and especially Chewie. Han was blind during the rescue and he had to trust those around them. He relied on Chewie and Luke being supportive of Lando to get through the situation. After that, Lando was part of his rescue: making amends. They also had the trip to the rendezvous point (off camera) to sort out their differences. I also think that Han was pragmatic and realistic to know the bind that Lando was in and be able to understand what he did.

    Lando also really did a lot to make amends (that Leia and Chewie could have told Han about on the Falcon leaving Tatooine): he helped their evacuation from Bespin (risking his own life and limb), he planned Han's rescue w/ Luke and Chewie. I think Lando did enough to redeem himself. Only the most unforgiving person would not be able to forgive Lando.
     
  15. Naccha

    Naccha Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 1999
    sellars1996 Mark Hamill was SW for me as a kid, and this nice guy does not get anywhere near the credit he deserves. It's a shame that Harrison Ford is the only main actor from the OT who has gone on to superstar status. Mark's work is grossly underappreciated by his peers and the public at large.

    Thank you sellars, that is so true. What has impressed me is that he took on some extremely demanding roles on Broadway such as Mozart in Amadeus and The Elephant Man and received great reviews and still gets no respect as an actor, (to the greater public) which makes no sense. I don't get it. But, I guess that's what happens when you play a character that is larger than life, like Luke Skywalker. He's still trying to shake that off. At least, he has a sense of humor about it. I saw the Simpsons episode last night where Homer was Mark's bodyguard. It was hilarious. Mark played Luke starring in "Guys and Dolls". Pretty funny stuff... :)
     
  16. Attack_of_the_Ewoks

    Attack_of_the_Ewoks Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2003
    Jedi was Great!

    [image=http://www.autographcentral.com/wattographs/bios/carriefisher/slave_leia.jpg]

    [image=http://wso.williams.edu/~rfoxwell/starwars/pics/Ewoks.gif]
     
  17. tun_dot_com

    tun_dot_com Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Despite what you hate about Jedi, it was the best ending to the Star Wars Saga. Just the overwhelming triumph of Luke and the gang always brings a tear to my eye. The music at the end also helps. :D
     
  18. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    ROTJ will always remain my sentimental favourite of the SW films. I'll accept arguements extolling the virtues of other films, but it'll always keep that spot with me.

    The fact that Luke is my favourite character (and that he gets to kick a ton of butt in this one and has a snappy outfit) helps :)
     
  19. JediHunterCommand

    JediHunterCommand Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2003
    A bit of a flawed masterpiece in my mind, really. It had its faults, but it also had great strengths.

    The Ewoks were always somewhat annoying. If more of them had died it would be more palatable (and understandable). Also, if Lando and the Falcon had gone down taking out DSII it would have made it a vastly better movie.

    I'd also like to chime in in support of Mark Hammill. The poor guy gets no respect whatsoever. I'm frequently tempted to make a movie just to give him a decent, serious role, so he could show the world he could be someone other than Luke Skywalker.
     
  20. son-of-skywalker13

    son-of-skywalker13 Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 27, 2002
    i love ROTJ, simply because of Luke. Mark Hamill gives one of the best performances in Star Wars period. I hate it when people call luke a whiner, considering that Anakin in AOTC is a much bigger whiner ... but that is another story

    i think the reason people dislike ROTJ is that it gets bogged down at times, such as in jabbas palace, and with the Ewoks before the battle. At times it is boring, but at times it is brilliant. I can never decide which luk/vader showdown i like more. ESB or ROTJ. it JUST might be ROTJ with all the intensity of luke barely keeping his sanity.
     
  21. ratmankey

    ratmankey Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    I recently thought of another argument for the Ewoks.

    Somebody (I forget who, or in what thread) complained that there's no way the Ewoks could fight an "entire legion" of the Empire's "best troops".

    But think about it. This was the Emperor calling them his "best troops". As Luke says, Palpy's overconfidence is his weakness. You think he hand-picked the troops in that particular legion? No way! That job would go to some lackey who would've recruited the same can't-aim, can't-walk-without-running-into-doors, can't-do-ANYTHING-right troopers we've seen elsewhere. I don't have any problem believing a bunch of teddy bears could defeat that sorry bunch.

    Somebody also (may have been the same person) brought up that troops in blaster armor could never be killed by arrows and rocks. Well...okay, so the arrows are a bit dubious. But the rocks could easily knock out somebody in armor, and I can accept that the rebels would go around capturing all the knocked-out troopers. Also, don't forget there were plenty of Imperial officers as well - WITHOUT armor - and arrows would certainly be effective for them.

    As for the "magically appearing" logs...well...it IS a movie...
     
  22. tryvader

    tryvader Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Hi everybody, this is my first post so bear with me! : )

    I don't hate ROTJ at all, however there are 3 things which I thin makes it weaker than ANH and ESB:

    1. Return of the Death Star. It just seems like a rehash of ANH. I thought Lucas could have come up with something more original. Also why would the Empire build another battle station exactly the same as the one that was already destroyed?!

    2. Endor looked too much like earth for me. It looks like it was shot in a forest on earth which it was! Compared to the environments in all the other movies Endor looks too normal.

    3. The ewoks.........nuff said. They look like little people in costumes.....though not as irritating as jar-Jar.
     
  23. Darth Jamus

    Darth Jamus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2000
    "Also why would the Empire build another battle station exactly the same as the one that was already destroyed?!"

    Actually, the new Death Star is improved and could not be destroyed in the same way. I am certain that the exhaust port is not designed in the same way to allow direct access to the main reactor. Just remember, this battle station was partially completed with much of its delicate inards exposed. The rebels flew their ships into the superstructure itself to access the reactor. The only reason that they were able to even do that was due to the shield being compromised, which the Emperor did not count on. He planned on luring the rebels into a trap with the prospect of harming this "exposed" station, while not counting on the Ewoks turning the tide of the battle and allowing the shield to be brought down! Besides, why wouldn't the Emperor want another Death Star to subjegate the galaxy with, this time with no vulnerability?
     
  24. Darth Jamus

    Darth Jamus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2000
    Well, I just finished watching the special edition ROTJ and it sure was great! I then got out my Definitive Edition Laserdisc set and watched the original ending and it was good too. The Ewoks are hardly as bad as people make them out to be. Actually, I find them to be rather entertaining most of the time! There is lots to love about this film, and the performances are all good with the possible exception of Han Solo's, which only suffers from lack of anything good to do. Carrie Fisher does fine, whether she was on drugs or not. I carefully examined her performance and found no fault with it. Mark Hamill was great too, as if we didn't already know that! ;)

    Lots of scenes had me thinking of things I now know from the prequels, what Anakin was like in his youth, Yoda and the council, Leia's intriguing comments about Padme, Ben's story of hiding Luke, and of course Palpatine. the prequels truly do enhance this wonderful film! :) How can people hate it! :confused:
     
  25. SLR

    SLR Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2002
    I don't think there was anything wrong w/ Harrison Ford's performance. I think it was the character that changed. His near death experience seemed to change his character from the reckless rogue to a more thoughtful and deliberate character.
     
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