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Why do people hate that Fireplace scene so much?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Vodstok, May 24, 2002.

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  1. Rose-

    Rose- Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 11, 2002
    I said this in the "best and worst awards" and this seemed to be well taken. I'll put what I said here:

    A lot of people hate the fireplace scene, but you have to understand that he's a 19 year old boy whose never bared his soul to a girl before. It's supposed to sound like cheesy gothic coffee house poetry.

    Truly, it sounded just like the angst ridden poetry of teens at cafe roma in vegas. Lucas captured the persona of the in love teenager well. It may be because I'm also 19, the same age as Anakin.
    THe stuff I've written my boyfriend in letters and said to him is about as bad
    . I'm sure many can't deny they've said dorky things too.

  2. Whitebiscuit

    Whitebiscuit Jedi Youngling

    Jun 5, 2002
    Well that scene wasn't terrible, but there was some lame directing in it.
    Here's the main problem I had in it. It cuts from them having dinner, showing all these different things they are doing during the day. However, unlike the other scenes with them together, they aren't in mid-conversation, they are staring at each other when we come in. Which is ok usually, but the way they did it was unnatural and awkward. They weren't romancing yet, they just moved on from dinner, Padme got changed, and they retired to the couch to stare. It wouldn't have been bad if it was shorter, but the camera angles around them, the whole time they are looking at each other, then on the close up they look away in perfect sync. That was the kicker, you could definately just imagine George Lucas in the back round say "ACTION!" right then. It felt very unnatural in the manner that they did that, and seemed more scripted.
  3. Anakin_Skywalker20

    Anakin_Skywalker20 Jedi Master star 5

    Nov 16, 2000
    Padme NEVER got Changed... I don't think she did... its that choker... thingy... you know?? Um... The fireplace scene was okay... i don't care about the acting. doesn't matter to me cause its lame to bash acting. Grrr... peace! :cool:
  4. FOX1973

    FOX1973 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Mar 20, 2001
    It wasn't lame directing, they're SUPPOSED to look awkward. They both know they shouldn't be in that situation, mood lighting et al, they're both inexperienced...
    Neither of them know what to do or say, then Anakin jumps in with a line he's obviously rehearsed in the bathroom mirror a few dozen times, he gets it all out in the open.
    It's a great scene.

    'Why do people hate the fireplace scene so much?'
    Because people suck.
  5. smauldookie

    smauldookie Jedi Knight star 5

    Mar 5, 2002

    SHAD0W-JEDI Jedi Master star 3

    May 20, 2002

    I've touched on this at length in other threads, so I will try, mightily, to fight my tendency towards wordiness HERE... ;)

    In real life, people behave very illogically, unpredictably, etc. However, most of us tend to hold movie characters to a different, more logical standard. We can debate if this SHOULD be so, but I think it fairly evident that it IS so... in real life, we know all kinds of unlikely couples, but in movies, if we are going to see an unlikely pairing, most of us need to be CONVINCED this would work.

    People keep referring to Padme as inexperienced, etc ...but I see no evidence IN THE MOVIES to support this view. In the movies, she is presented as a smart, savvy, deep, courageous, moral, sophisticated, worldly woman who ran an entire planet, was apparently ELECTED QUEEN at the age of 14 (!), has served in the Galactic Senate, has fought for her life, fought for her planet, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc... and if you are going to sell the idea that such a woman is going to be swept off her feet by a clumsy, petulant had better be one good salesman! :) Could Padme be all of the above and be utterly inexperienced in romance, etc? Yup. But set that up IN THE MOVIES if that is a major point re her falling for this clusmy-line-spouting BOY.

    That is the Readers Digest version...I swear, the longer version is much more subtle and literate ;), but I am trying to be good and not make too many of you doze off!

  7. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Mar 19, 1999
    Could someone post the dialogue from the scene? I think that would help the discussion, if that's permissible.
  8. obhavekenobi78

    obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master star 5

    May 20, 2002
    I liked it. I had read the book, so I knew that the ring would bear the insidious inscription scribed in the unspeakable tongue of Mordor. The tension was done flawlessly as the ring was removed from the flaming embers, immediately cool to the young hobbit's touch. At first, the ring displays not a trace of it's known decay, but alas only a few moments pass before the hobbit's eyes widen and the infamous identitiy of the Ring of Power is revealed...

    One Ring to rule them all,
    One Ring to find them,
    One Ring to bring them all,
    And....wait, are we talking about Star Wars?

    Uhhhhhh, I gotta go....
  9. JediHPDrummer

    JediHPDrummer Jedi Master star 3

    Mar 23, 2002
    Anakin: From the moment i met you. All those years ago. a day hasnt gone by when i havent thought about you. and now im with you again. I'm in agony. Yhe closer i get to you, the worser it gets. I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kis will not become a scar. you are in my very sould tormenting me.

    Padme: I cant.... we cant

    Anakin: What can i do? will do anything that you ask. If you are suffereing as much as i am, tell me.

    Padme: It's jus tnot possible

    Anakin: Anythings possible padme. listen to me

    padme: no, you listen to me. we live in a real world., com back to it. If you follow your thoughts through conclusoon they will take us to a place we cannot go... regardless of the way we feel about each other

    anakin: then you do feel something

    padme: i will not let you give up your future for me

    anakin: you're asking me to be rational. Thisis something i know icannot do. I wish could wish my feelings away... but i cant

    i think there is one ine here

    anakin: it wouldnt have to be taht way, we could keep it a secret

    padme: then we'd be living a lie. one we coulnt keep even if we wanted to. I coulnt do that could you anakin? could you live liek that

    anakin: you're right, it would destroy us

    WONDERFUL DIALOGUE!!!!!!!! seriously what is so bad with this. i think its very dramatic. common people this anit beautiful mind acting. Get a grip. they did agreat job. what if mark hamill fell in love, man that would be even worse. give these people a break. they did a great job see yah
  10. IamZam

    IamZam Jedi Grand Master star 5

    May 19, 2002
    Gee JW, I may have to go back and watch GWTW again. I didn't like it the first time I saw it, but you make it sound actually intereting.. hmmm
  11. Radar_958

    Radar_958 Jedi Youngling

    Jun 11, 2002
    The main problem with this scene is that it is rushed. It comes out of nowhere. As others stated, there are no transition pieces for the romantic scenes. Obi One has them with his, which is why no one complains really about his parts. The romance seems rushed. And this can be a problem with a movie and it can also work. It depends on the approach the writer takes. The dialogue seems corny at times because Lucas is telling us and not showing us. With the romance between Han and Leia, we are shown the feelings that have. It does come out of the blue, and isn't going to go down as any great romances, but fans didn't have as much problem with it because it flowed more. As people we are visual. We don't alwasy like to be told something. A good writer knows that he needs to bring the reader into his or her story, so that they can experience it with the characters. Most of the movie does that wonderfully, but at times it doesn't. The fireplace scene is the epitome of the parts that don't work. Now don't get me wrong. I didn't hate the scene. I feel with more transition, and maybe take out some of the cliches with the scene and it will flow better. I like Hayden's acting. I like Natalie Portman's acting ability, but as other's pointed out she doesn't live up to her potential in the Star Wars movies. Even in Phantom she seemed flaky about the lines. There is no emotion to what she is saying in most scenes. She is just going through the motions. In Phantom I didn't really mind it because she was an authority figure, and I assumed that it was this. But in romantic scenes it doesn't work. I didn't even mind the dialogue all that much. People say that it is corny. My reply to that is: we all say corny things in real life. Anyone who says that he or she doesn't is either so elequent or emotionless that I'm not very interested in ever meeting them. As humans we speak poorly at times, we trip over dialogue, and we fall into cliches. If we didn't they wouldn't be cliches. And in the case of love, we all have tendencies to say the most idiotic things. It's in our nature. When love overwhelms us so much that we can't control our own feelings and thoughts, the things we say our usually things that we later wish we hadn't. The only line in that scene that I hated was when Padme says "Your studying to be a jedi. I'm a... I'm a senator." I hate this line. It is the corniest line. I think that it was implied the reasons why. We didn't need to be told. I very much enjoyed the movie. I didn't mind the rushed love story. Many times in life people can fall in love quickly. I just feel that if there were more transition between scenes deeling with the romance, it would improve the movie. Show us don't tell us so much. The extra transition scenes would help this too. Beside all of this, AOTC is still one of my favorite Star Wars movies, and I will see it again, and I will eventually buy it.
  12. Anakin_Skywalker20

    Anakin_Skywalker20 Jedi Master star 5

    Nov 16, 2000
    Ppl do say Corny stuff in real life. I think your forgetting that. I say a lot of corny stuff too... altough.. lol [face_laugh] The fireplace was fine-leave it at that. hayden/natalie did their best. SO leave them ALONE!!! :mad:

    Vader: and don't make me angry again-i had quite enough!
  13. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Mar 19, 1999
    Thanks for posting the dialogue!

    Anakin's soliloquy is truly, deeply awful, but what's also missing from the fireside scene is a sense of logical progression. Remember that Padme and Anakin have already kissed. Anakin Force-feeds her fruit - there is a sensuality in that moment that not even Portman's wooden acting can completely sabotage. Also, the waterfall scene literally ends with Padme lying on top of Anakin.

    Then the fireside chat starts with Padme wearing a seductress outfit. Logically, the scene should open with Padme and Anakin in each others' arms. They are there to make out. They are kissing. Anakin wants more. He is a teen. He moves too quickly. He lets sexual tension take over his thought-process. They are lying on the couch now, with Anakin on top this time. Then Padme panics.

    Padme: Anakin... no... we can't

    Anakin (still trying to kiss her): Yes we can. (is he actually trying to use a mind trick on her?)

    Padme: No Anakin! (she slips out from under him. Stands in front of the fireplace). This isn't right! We can't do this.

    Anakin: (frustrated): What are you trying to do to me, Padme? I thought you felt the same way I did? I know you feel something for me.

    Padme: It's just not possible

    Anakin: What do you want me to do? I can't stop thinking about you. I've never stopped thinking about you.

    Padme: We live in a real world. Come back to it for a moment. Look at what's happening and follow it through to conclusion. Does it really matter how we feel about each other?

    Anakin: So you do feel something for me!

    Padme: I will not let you give up your future for me. Do you want me to give up my future for you? Is that what you want?

    Anakin: How am I supposed to be rational with you standing here? All I can think about is the possibility of being with you. How can that be impossible? How can that be wrong? There must be a way. Why would anyone have to know?

    Padme: Would you keep it a secret from the Jedi order? Would you hide it from Obi-wan?

    Anakin: If it meant I could be with you, yes!

    Padme: I couldn't live like that Anakin. I don't believe you could live like that either.

    Anakin: (resigned, a little more cool-headed now). You're right, it would destroy us.

    That would trim a lot of excess, cut back drastically on the cliches and make the scene more authentic from the perspective of young love. In my humble opinion, it would also enhance the dramatic tension.
  14. JohnWilliams00

    JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 29, 2002
    Hey that's much better jabba. It seems much smoother and natural -- now that is what I would believe people would be saying. People keep saying the fireplace scene is realistic, but it sounds more scripted (poorly at that) rather than realistic. The best thing to change is to drop the romanctic "You're in my soul..." I never believed for one second Padme was that important to Anakin, so when he says "You're in my soul.." I don't buy it. Not enough time was spent on maturing this relationship, and they don't have that great of chemistry to begin with.

    I have a feeling George or Johnathen Hales were trying to "show off" by inserting some elaborate romantic metaphors. Too bad they aren't too good at it.

    I would've also dropped this line:

    "If we follow our thoughts through to conclusion..."

    I don't know why, she sounds like a teacher for some reason, and the line is so mechanical. Can't she just say, "If we do this, it will take us to a place we can't go."? Conciseness usually works best.

  15. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Mar 19, 1999
    You may be right about that line. But I didn't tamper with it too much because I think it would be natural for Padme to have a tendency to lecture, given who she is.
  16. Anakin_Skywalker20

    Anakin_Skywalker20 Jedi Master star 5

    Nov 16, 2000
    well of course...she's a senator. ;)
  17. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 17, 2002

    When he goes for it on the couch, it reminds me of a typical adolescent adventure in sex. I suddenly got an image of Tom Cruise dancing on the coffee table in his BVDs (well maybe that's above average rather than typical. lol whew). There's nothing typical about Star Wars. There's nothing typical about Anakin or Padme. He said it himself, "I'm much too frightened to tease a Senator." I think he means that. He interprets it as fear but I think it reality it's more akin to respect for her as the object of his affections, a Senator, a female figure he's admired since childhood, etc.

    I honestly think the dialogue and behavior at the fireplace works. It places the moment in some other time and place, long ago. It adds grace to it, which is so crucial considering the two involved: one of royal blood, the other from a disciplined brotherhood.

    When I hear people complain about the flowery language and odd dialogues, it recalls to my mind some of Leia's first lines we hear in ANH, "...I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board." Even Fisher said her lines were often hard to read because the phraseology was archaic and the words more Elizabethan than she had been comfortable with until she had some theatrical Shakespearean training in England.

    Anyway, I like your writing, I just don't know if it's a necessary change, and I especially don't think Padme should be relegated to the virgin goddess fighting off some horny kid. It's cheap and predictable and doesn't fit the situation.

    *runs for her life* :D

  18. dahveed72

    dahveed72 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Mar 11, 2002
    Not bad Jabba. Some of your wording is questionable, but the gyst of it is much much better than what we saw on the screen.

    Its a romantic scene between star-crossed lovers, not rocket science. So WHAT THE HELL IS LUCAS' EXCUSE?!
  19. SWfan2002

    SWfan2002 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 28, 2002
    There's always things you could do differently in every movie. Just because it's different however, does not make it better or worse. Remember too that GL is looking at the bigger picture, which includes EP3-- the events of which we know little about at this time.
  20. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Mar 19, 1999
    Undomiel wrote: "I especially don't think Padme should be relegated to the virgin goddess fighting off some horny kid. It's cheap and predictable and doesn't fit the situation."

    I guess I disagree. It fits the situation. Padme is attracted to Anakin. She wants him. She put on that dress. She set the mood by taking him to the room with the fireplace. Her intent is to seduce him/be seduced by him. But then their predicament is suddenly brought into focus by the intensity of his "horniness." I don't find it cheap at all. Predictable maybe, but very realistic for teens maneuvering ineptly toward sexual congress.

    I wouldn't be surprised if George was a "virgin goddess" in his teen years. Only someone with total lack of access to the memories of adolescent sexuality could write a scene like that.

    dahveed72 wrote: "Not bad Jabba. Some of your wording is questionable."

    I agree completely. But keep in mind that I made that up as I was posting it. It represents about 3 minutes of thought. And I think it highlights the fact that improving on Lucas's writing has a "taking candy from a baby" aspect to it.
  21. dahveed72

    dahveed72 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Mar 11, 2002
    yeah, sorry, of course. my point is that there are MANY ways they couldve done that scene (and those before and after) that would have been perfectly acceptable. including your version.

    forgive my somewhat backhanded complement.
  22. IamZam

    IamZam Jedi Grand Master star 5

    May 19, 2002
    I like the fireplace scene as it is.

    This is not about sex, it is about something more. Their attraction to each other is something that goes deeper than just hormones. There is an honest respect and caring. To relegate to the status of just wanting each other's bode's misses the whole point.

    Yes she wants him, she wants him badly. But she also knows what the consquences of such a relationship would be. She is still fighting a battle within herself. That is why she has such a "please convince me" look.

    They are both experienced in some areas of life, but not in this area of romance. It is something very new for both of them. That is why it is soo awkward.
  23. dolphin

    dolphin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Nov 5, 1999
    whole time they are looking at each other, then on the close up they look away in perfect sync. That was the kicker, you could definately just imagine George Lucas in the back round say "ACTION!" right then. It felt very unnatural in the manner that they did that, and seemed more scripted.

  24. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 23, 2002
    The scenes actually progress fine that lead up to the Fireplace scene. I don't feel the scene comes out of nowhere- the tension between the 2 is palpable. I am listing them as who I think has the upper hand in each scene by listing the winning character?s reactions first:

    1) Initial meeting:
    Padme: Wearing head to toe formal attire. Padme gasps when seeing him, is obviously intrigued w/ seeing him again. Does shut him down w/ the "little boy on Tatooine" statement. But comes to his rescue with resolving Obi-Wan/ Anakin's argument.

    Anakin: Anakin is awkward, nervous as hell, tries to win her over by saying he'll do anything to help her, even defy his master. Starts w/ his intense looks. Pretty much makes a mess of things, except getting her attention w/ the ?more beautiful? comment.

    2) Bug scene:
    Anakin: mentions Padme covered the cameras because she was "uncomfortable" watching him. He then rescues Padme from the bugs, by leaping on top of her on her bed, lightsaber all lit. Her knight in shining armor.

    Padme: is wearing a very Victorian looking nightgown, that mostly covers her up. Is startled awake by her Jedi Protector jumping on top of her having slayed the nasty bugs, by turning off the cameras, they could have gotten in there sooner.

    3) Packing Scene:
    Padme: Again covered head to toe in formal clothing. finally admits Anakin is no longer a kid, realizes he has ambitions, softens towards him and then stiffens up when she notices his very un-Jedilike feelings towards her. She backs away from him, gets all professional again.

    Anakin: He whines. Complains about school, but also shows some maturity when talking to her. Casually plays w/ object while talking to her, showing her his powers, working on subconsciously impressing her. Then gives her that smouldering look which levels any gains he might have made with her.

    4) Departure scene:
    Anakin: smiles when Padme calls him ?my Jedi protector,? acts obediently to his Master, and helps ease Padme?s fears.
    Padme: full of emotion to leave Dorme and Typho, shows Anakin respect, lets him comfort her.

    5) Transport:
    Anakin: totally smitten kitten w/ Padme. He can't wait to pounce into the conversation and gush over Padme, let her know that he has been dreamed of her for 10 years. Tells her his views on the Jedi codes- from a certain point of view. End bites his lip, hoping desperately for some kind of positive sign from her.

    Padme: Head to toe formal clothing, . Initiates first questioning of Anakin and his commitment to the Jedi Order. She is completely taken aback by his obvious puppy love, however, she blushes, looks down at her meal to avoid Anakin's hopeful gaze.

    6) Naboo: Walk to Queen's chamber:
    Both act very professionally. Padme is glowing, happy talking about her role in the government, it's her life. Anakin recognizes this, and supports her decisions to work. Both seem to be at an equal level. (Both equal.)

    Queen's chamber: The disagreement.
    Padme: Shuts Anakin?s authority down in front of her political peers w/ her immasculating "He's only a Padawan learner" comment. She has to reason w/ him to obviously calm him down.

    Anakin: Poor Anakin, gets his nose all bent out of joint, controls his anger w/ her. As the 2 struggle w/ power play.

    7) Balcony scene:
    Padme: Suddenly wearing revealing, romantic outfit. Talks about how much she loves the place, and allows Anakin to kiss her. Then backs off.

    Anakin: Delivers his Sand line, very much like how young Anakin would have said it. Tests her. And kisses her. And of course is all confused when she pulls away. Poor guy didn?t stand a chance, but he managed to cement his feelings for Padme.

    8) Meadow scene: Call me corny- I like this scene.
    Anakin: Gets Padme to open up to him, has a lively discussion on politics that peeks her interest. Then plays victim, gets her all worried about him.

    Padme: Again, soft romantic clothes. Finds herself revealing very personal things to Anakin. Is totally confused over his view on politics, laughs at Ani?s antics, then gen
  25. dahveed72

    dahveed72 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Mar 11, 2002
    Padme, anyone with half a brain knows what Lucas was TRYING to convey. You dont need to go into such lengthy explanation to get your point across.
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