Why do people hate that Fireplace scene so much?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Vodstok, May 24, 2002.

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  1. darthcois Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 1
    I agree. EVERYONE was laughing and they didn't stop for so long.
    I hate that because I love the lines Anakin delivers....about his soul.

    But....why the heck did they need a fireplace?

    I know the mens here are going to object...but...why does Natalie need to wear that bondage gear? I mean, those two things together give the scence the cheesiness everyone is talking about.

    YEAH!
  2. Tellesto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    I think the problem with this scene lie in the fact that for many, it is a shocker to see such a set-up in a Star Wars movie. I mean, look at the previous romantic moments to happen in Star Wars films: Leia kissing Luke quickly on the cheek ?for luck? while an entire squadron of Stormtroopers rains down red death upon them. Or hey, how about the bit with Han and Leia being trapped inside a Starship better left to an antique road-show with the Empire close at their heels, monsters trying to swallow them, and intergalactic bounty hunters in close pursuit? The thing is, we?ve been conditioned to view romance in Star Wars as a quick and rushed element to the story. The characters of the Original Trilogy certainly couldn?t waltz into the Falcon?s lounge and sit before a fireplace to talk out their feelings for one another, they barely even had time to kiss with droids always interrupting their private time. By our view, all romance to happen in Star Wars up to this point has been done ?on the fly? with the forces of evil close behind. Because of this rushed pace a lot of improvised dialogue and mood gives a writer, who is naturally good with quick paced improvisational storytelling, a chance to shine.
    Yet this standard has lead us to believe that this sort of romantic storytelling would forever be the norm in Star Wars. Perhaps some of us believed that romantically, Anakin and Padme would be on the run from Nute?s assassins and while aboard her silver-bullet transport, we would find Anakin dealing with mechanical problems. Padme finding herself more and more attracted to Anakin?s Jedi powers and intuition tries her best not to get wrapped up in a romance, but his sly remarks and the edgy circumstances often leaves her groping for some form of self-control.
    But that?s not the story, and Attack of the Clones is not The Empire Strikes Back. While I do believe that the Anakin and Padme romance would have worked well with the ?rushed? style given in the Original Trilogy, I do not believe that a focal point of success in the past should continually be tapped for future creative projects.
    That?s just cheep and bad form on the part of a writer, you can use a style of writing or have recurring themes in your story, I won?t deny that. But to constantly fall back on a source of success simply to make money and reach critics who aren?t even trying to understand Star Wars is a cop-out.
    Lucas wanted to try something different by giving the audience a more thematic romance, complete with grassy field, suggestive outfits and a fireplace confession, and personally, I think it works well.

    Anakin is in many ways fashioned to be much like that MTV, emo generation of teenagers who find themselves wrapped up in an all-engrossing, obsessive and ultimately, destructive relationship that takes control of everything they do in life. I can?t say that I blame him for it or question his actions, because every element of emotion he experiences is all in the vein of love. Sometimes your love for a person can be so great that you have a hard time expressing the grandness of it into simple words and lines, and obviously sex is out of the question for a children?s film. Thus, Lucas has to show that Anakin, in his grand and all-encompassing romance, is spouting forth the most extreme and over the top dialogue because it?s the only real way he knows of to convey his feelings to Padme. For most of his life he?s been an emotionally depraved boy who?s spent time with a staunch Jedi Knight only concerned with duty and obligation. The greatest expressions of emotion to come Anakin?s way have been in the form of sarcastic putdowns from his own mentor.
    Now I will agree that this is no excuse for bad dialogue and to some degree, bad directing, but it is an excuse from a writer?s perspective. Lucas couldn?t exactly bust out a Han Solo-type Anakin because he fully knew from the get go that he?d been giving his story a more classical romantic setting, fireplaces, flowers and fruit. Having Anakin come across as a sheltered and inexperienced blowhard is his aim
  3. dahveed72 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    quote:

    I know the mens here are going to object...but...why does Natalie need to wear that bondage gear? I mean, those two things together give the scence the cheesiness everyone is talking about.

    And since Ms. Portman still looks all of 15 years old, it adds a sort of creepiness that im quite sure Lucas did not intend.
  4. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    "The thing is, we?ve been conditioned to view romance in Star Wars as a quick and rushed element to the story."

    I see what you're saying, but I think the emphasis is different. I don't think the romance is "rushed," in the OT, I think it is deliberately intended to serve two important narrative goals: 1) building interest in the lives of the characters and 2) as a spacer between action scenes, an alternative to "comic relief." Indeed, some of the most important romantic scenes in the OT also serve the role of comic relief.

    It's not that those scenes are rushed, it's more that Lucas had limited goals for them.

    And I think that's more or less how GL views dialogue as a whole. It's the stuff that fills in the gaps between the action.

    In making AOTC, for the first time in Star Wars, GL is faced with romantic scenes that serve critical narrative goals for the movie and the six-part story arc. So the romantic dialogue has to be more than just filler, more than just comic relief. And GL just wasn't up to the task. His inexperience in writing/directing that kind of scene was painfully exposed. The scene has all the joy and heartfelt creative spark of a remedial term paper written under threat of being forced to repeat the 7th grade.
  5. Tellesto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    The scene has all the joy and heartfelt creative spark of a remedial term paper written under threat of being forced to repeat the 7th grade.

    I really liked and saw the point of everything you said before that, but I'm afraid that I have to disagree with your thoughts given there.
    To say that it lacks joy and heartfelt creative spark is a bit of a blanket statement, at least from my point of view. Lucas is by his very nature a very creative person. He creates grand worlds, strange aliens and dramatic tales of politics and Jedi Knights. So to say that he's not creative when it comes to romance is a bit of a blank-shot, for we've all had our brushes with love and romance in our lives, and Lucas isn't any different.
    By having romance in his story and giving it the focus of attention shows that he truly has some ideas and thoughts that he's trying to express through Padme and Anakin's relationship. As we all know, if Lucas doesn't agree with or find meaning in some idea or item, he simply ignores it. (The critics, dialogue, Oscar-worthy acting, etc...).

    But a writing style better suited to drama and action, with inbetween comedy and romance does not = a lack of creative vision when it comes to romance. For someone who's showing romance and love for the first time as something else besides "inbetween" story, he did very well.

    But hey, that's just my perspective. I really liked this statement:

    It's not that those scenes are rushed, it's more that Lucas had limited goals for them.
  6. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    It's only an opinion, true. I don't think Lucas enjoys writing dialogue, and I think it shows in his work. I think he could easily have solved the problems by encouraging his actors to improv a bit on their lines, to find a pattern of speech that worked for that scene. Of course, Natalie and Hayden may not have been experienced enough to pull that off either.
  7. JohnRavenwood Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    I didn't like how quickly we are taken to that scene. Then again, maybe I am just slow ... I've been accused of worse. The other thing I disliked about the scene was how Padme came off like such a tease. Why did gL dress her like that? I liked looking at her--I really liked it, but she seemed like a tease. There she was with her creamy cleavage filling up the screen in all it's glory ... like two perfectly round globes of flesh ......... uhhhhhhhhhh, where was I going with this? Oh ya, with her dressed like that by the fire light what did she expect of a young man she had already kissed. He wasn't going to say how pretty she looked and that maybe they could do each others hair later. He was going to tell her he loves her, he wants her, blah blah blah. The kid likes her alot and wants to get laid. By dressing her like that, it kind of makes me think that she knows what she's doing. She knows she's got him wrapped around her finger. Kind of like lookie lookie at me, but don't touch ... I just want to be friends. I mean just cut the kids lightsaber off. By the way, I after seeing that scene I would love to see Natalie play the part of a hooker. Man I'd pay for her.
  8. Vodstok Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 2
    You are complaining about a girl saying "look but don't touch"?

    I thought that was chapter one in their handbook.

    I mean really, no offense ladies, but in my experience, many of you give off more scrambled signals than HBO.

    edit: Sorry if that was a sweeping judgement, but my best freind is a woman, and she admits to it. Of course, it was redundant to tell me that, we dated for 5 months.
  9. JohnRavenwood Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    I think it makes her seem a little cruel. Even though women do tease alot, and they probably do have a handbook, she knows this guys loves her. It's not like a first date. She teased him enough with the outfit she was wearing when they got out of the boat and shared their first kiss. You know that outfit, the one where she is basically showing her crack. I mean that was enough. Is she trying to kill the poor kid?
  10. Undomiel Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Ravenwood,

    They are killing each other, but not on purpose. That's my take on it. Not a good relationship at all.
  11. Marie_Kenobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2002
    star 2
    As much as I hate to agree with Vodstok, women (and teenage girls! :p) do send out mixed signals. Don't ask me why we do it. But I think it's because we don't fully trust the boys or our own feelings. Hence Padme. She knew what she was feeling but she wasn't sure what those feelings would mean in the long run.
  12. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I prefer to think that Padme had every intention of jumping Anakin's bones that night. But she changed her mind after his horrible "my loins burn for you" speech. If he'd just kissed her instead of all that pointless talking everything would have progressed normally, with clothes scattered all over the floor, lightsaber rolling under the sofa.
  13. JohnRavenwood Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    I think it makes her seem a little cruel. Even though women do tease alot, and they probably do have a handbook, she knows this guys loves her. It's not like a first date. She teased him enough with the outfit she was wearing when they got out of the boat and shared their first kiss. You know that outfit, the one where she is basically showing her crack. I mean that was enough. Is she trying to kill the poor kid?
  14. Undomiel Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Jabba,

    No, they have a sado-masochist type of relationship. Her role is the dominatrix, as everyone keeps insisting her dress represents. She's a cruel mistress, because she represents his addiction. She is equally addicted to him as well, because she feeds off his neediness for her, like a textbook dual-addicted relationship.
  15. JohnRavenwood Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    Marie admits to the mixed signals. Poor poor Anakin. He should have just looked at Padme after their conversation and said "Damn, a brother can't get no love up in here" then he could walk off and find one of those little hand maidens, or maybe that new Queen. She was eyeing him up pretty good. I know those jedi senses picked up on it a little.
  16. Emi-Yan_Tetu Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 2
    This scene was actually one my most favourite in the film.

    Think about it, before this they had played innocently in the fields. Then in the scene directly before this Padme takes a bite of the floating forbidden fruit :) and in the next scene things in their relationship suddenly change dramatically. It's picking up on the Adam & Eve mythology. That's what Star Wars is all about.

    I think it was absolutely brilliantly done.

    There is much more depth to this kind of thing than a lot of people, me included, understand. But some fans don't acknowledge it at all and that's just wrong.

    If you've ever felt real love and heart break, Anakin's "I can't breathe..." lines will hit a note. They did with me. Brilliantly written in my opinion.

    The black dress represents alot of things, like Undomiel mentioned above. It also adds to the atmosphere of the forbiddenness of their relationship. It also represents a loss of innocence. Remember Star Wars films are very visual.

    George Lucas is a very very intelligent man, he knows what he's doing. It's all deliberate.
  17. IamZam Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 5
    Thank You EMI!! I'm glad I'm not alone here. I was starting to wonder about myself!! :?

    :D :)
  18. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    One of the things I love about this scene is the black background. In fact, in some of the shots, the only thing you see besides the actors is black! There's a lot of symbolism there...
  19. Tellesto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    You know, when I look at that black dress and how it sort of teases Anakin I tend to think to myself that perhaps Padme is acting outside of her best judgement. While on a basic level she may not be trying to bed him, nor entice him, deep down her feelings for him are coming out, and that slowly effects the way she dresses throughout the film.

    I also like to think that Padme as a person, alone, away from the senate and rulership, is actually a very revealing person who has no problem showing off her physical beauty.
  20. JohnRavenwood Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    Man .... why does black always represent something negative---loss of innocence, mace a traitor, Lando selling out his friends. I know GL is very visual and all joking aside I agree with what emi wrote. I'm just starting to get a complex the more I watch these films. I mean Vader is a bad ass and all, but he is evil--oh ya and he dresses in Black. I just know Mace will have a tainted ending too. oh well
  21. PadmeLeiaJaina Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Tellesto- bravo thank you for your comments.

    Boy you guys have immature crowds that you see this film with. I haven't had a crowd laugh at all when this scene comes up. A few idiots chose it as their moments to head for the loo, but I never hear snickers or laughs.

    Forget the style of Padme's dress for a moment, what does BLACK signify in these films??? It signifies the DARK SIDE. This is the first time we see Padme all in black (excluding 1 queen outfit that had black in it in TPM.) She is wearing black at the point in the film where the tension of their relationship has hit a crescendo. The blackness of her dress signifies loss of their innocence and the introduction of temptation and seduction. By her accepting the forbidden fruit from the previous scene, she is now a willing participant in the dance of their emotional turmoil.

    The style of the dress, if you look at the headbands etc, is medieval. Yes the black gloves and leather corsette scream sex. That is the point. She embodies everything Anakin is desiring in his heart, that is forbidden to the life of a Jedi. The only thing that prevents the 2 from caving into their raw emotions for each other is Padme's ever rational, practical mind. And by Natalies subtle acting, you can tell she hates saying every line, because really, she wants to be with him as badly as he wants her.

    Remember the Dark Side is seductive, as Yoda tells Luke. I would have been totally confused and put off if Padme was wearing some white, or flowery dress in the scene. It wouldn't have worked, because she is equally as emotionally conflicted. With the firelight, Anakin's entire outfit is nearly black in appearance.

    If the scene seems out of place, it's supposed to. Neither character has any business being in the situation they've put themselves into. If you read a lot of fantasy fiction, or classics, the language in the scene reflects the angst of Lancelot declaring his love for Gweniever, or Romeo to Julliet. I think the scene is perfect. Given time I think people will see that.

    Thankfully I'm glad GL gave us something other than another Fett worship scene to sit through.
  22. WormieSaber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    George Lucas also put both Padme and Anakin in a dark tunnel (sort of) right before going into the arena, when Padme told Anakin she loved him deeply. It was a like a space all of their own. It's easier for a room to look smaller if it is darker, and I think putting Padme and Anakin in a dark room with the fireplace signified thier closeness.
  23. Undomiel Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    PLJ,

    That was a wonderful analogy! Thank you for taking the time to type it up for us. You've really clarified alot of what was transpiring in the scene. Hard to beat that write up.

    -Undomiel
  24. JohnRavenwood Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    black =the dark side. Like I said, I'm getting a complex and a brother can't get no love in a SW movie
  25. IamZam Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 5
    THank you Padme,
    Once again you've managed to say what I've been thinking, in better words.

    Anyone notice that when they are chained up in the "truly deeply" scene they are chained so they are pulled opposite each other, they have to strain to even kiss. Me thinks that was done for a reason also. Symbolically speaking.


    I've seen that 15 times, and not once did anybody laugh or even act what I would consider immature or out of line.

    And as for the awkward silences. Well am I the only one who has been in a situation where you dont' know quite what to say, you know you should say something, but you dont know what. Sometimes silence is as loud as words. They know they are headed down a path they shouldn't but they are walking it anyway.

    The sexines of the dress simply goes along with Padme's conscious denial, while subsconsiuosly she wants him, and wants him to convince her. Why else is she acting likea girlfriend adn practically throwing herself at him after that.
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