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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Why do people hate that Fireplace scene so much?

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by Vodstok, May 24, 2002.

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  1. DarthRaptor

    DarthRaptor Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 24, 2002
    I'm not a big fan of the fireplace scene. While I agree that Anakin's frustrations are well-founded by that point (I've had similar personal experiences there, too, unfortunately), it just seems a little overdramatic. It gets better with repeated viewings, but I still think it's one of the worse done scenes in the movie.

    Worst part of that scene? The sixteen hour pause before they even start talking. What were they doing there? Did someone forget to call 'action' on the set or something? I mean, you could drive a Mack truck through that pause!

    Otherwise, though, AOTC rocks!

    DR
     
  2. darthlebowski72

    darthlebowski72 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2001
    They were awkward, uneasy, cliched... just like 2 people who've never been in love before. It shouldn't have been anything like Han/Leia

    I think it was FOX1973 who said this on the first page and I wholeheartedly agree with him. Anakin and Padme were first time lovers. They were nervous and had no experience in romance. They both had lived sheletered lives to that point. I think GL did a really good job of taking that into consideration when writing this. I think I would have been shocked if the dialogue rivaled "From Here to Eternity" or something. It would have been out of place and inappropriate.
     
  3. AquaRose

    AquaRose Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2001
    I love that scene... now if only a guy would say that to me;)
     
  4. QuiGonJinn84

    QuiGonJinn84 Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 20, 1999
    I really love how people call Anakin/Padme cliched and not Han/Leia. I mean how much of a cliche is the hate eachother one moment/fall in each other's arms the next a cliche?

    Harry Knowles was actually right - all love stories are a cliche.

    What it depends on, what it all hinges on, is do you believe it? Do you believe that by the end of the movie Anakin loves Padme and Padme loves Anakin in some romantic way. I believe it.

    The picnic scene, the freighter scene, the kiss on the balcony all serve to show that these are two kids and they are growing fond of each other. Watch the first kiss - how awkward it is for both of them, there is a such a long pause before it that just works perfectly. It's a momentary thing, Padme is mesmerized and she just gives in, the kiss itself is just funny, the way they kiss just looks like its their first kiss ever.

    The picnic scene is just more playful, it really just shows how young they are, and I like it. You feel that they are enamored with one another by then, truly.

    And then the fireplace scene serves to slow it down, it makes you fully aware that Padme IS falling for him, but she refuses to. Anakin listens to what she has to say. He backs down. What is interesting is that as soon as she is not a possibility he turns back to his mother's situation. He needs affection, he is starved for it.

    The scene were he tells Padme he has to go, you get the feeling that there is something between them. She knows he was having 'another' nightmare - when he tells her what it is, she is inspired by what seems to be heroism to save his mother.

    On Tatooine you can see what she is feeling. She hugs him. The way she strokes his hair as he breaks down. It's all there. I believe it by then. He loves her on a romantic level, but its more about him needing love then it is about them having this incredible bond. She loves him, mainly because he loves her so much. Deep down, he's innocent (until certain events) and he is good. She becomes attached to him when he needs her on Tatooine. She finally gives in when she wants to, its not because she really believes there is no hope - if she thought that she wouldn't have put that pin in her mouth. She confesses her love because she can't take it anymore.

    Again, the confession scene is the one that kinda ruined it for me. It is beautifully acted, but it comes right after an action high, when it should transition more smoothly. We should know that they are about to be executed. We don't. The trial scene should be there (minus the insults she gives to Anakin). If the pledge scene worked better than the love story as a whole would have been better. If the dialogue was better, specifcally in the fire scene then the movie would be flawless. The problem is the dialogue takes you out of whats really going on, and on those first viewings, you don't buy that they love each other.

    But after the confession from Padme, in the Arena you can really feel the release. You can see that they are a pretty good couple. The way Anakin goes to save her, the way she kisses him on the cheek, the way they fight together in that chariot, the whole shared inside joke. Then there is the way that Anakin wont leave her when she falls - Obi-Wan tells him to do what she would do and it is clear that he is inspired by her. And later when she runs up to him, without caring what the others see, the way she hugs him and again strokes his hair is wonderful. You buy their love, its just that it wasnt developed from a dialogue, and in the case of the love confession, editing stand point as flawlessly as it could have been.
     
  5. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 18, 1999
    Why do people keep calling Padme a kid? Padme is older than Leia was in ESB and considering that Leia was into doing her duty as well, it's doubtful she had any more "experience" than her mother did. She probably had less, she probably had no Palo when she was twelve.
     
  6. QuiGonJinn84

    QuiGonJinn84 Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 20, 1999
    Because we dont know when Leia became a senator. We do know that Padme was a queen at 14 - maybe earlier, and that she soon became a senator. I dont think the thing with Palo was really what you would call experience (she was 12!). We dont even know if they dated, she may have just had a crush on him and thats what Anakin was asking.

    Anyway Leia says 'I happen to like nice men' which tells me that she is more experienced. Ill bet she had more of a normal childhood than Padme, thats for sure.
     
  7. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 18, 1999
    She was already a galactic senator when she a teenager, she was the "daughter" of the leader of a planet. She wouldn't have been a senator at such a young age and doing what she was with the Rebellion, the important missions, if she didn't already have a decent amount of experience. Leia saying she liked "nice men" might mean nothing more than that is what she imagines she would like and Han doesn't fit into that image. I don't think she has anymore experience than Padme does. After all nothing was stopping Padme from gaining "experience" in those years--Senators have wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends, they don't have any kind of committment like the Jedi do(in fact in one of the cut scenes this very fact is something that her mother or sister brings up). By all appearances, Leia was every bit as singleminded and devoted to duty as her mother was.

    And either way, Leia is younger in ESB than Padme is in AOTC, just a year or two but still younger.
     
  8. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Those who grouse about the love story in AOTC seem unprepared to accept an Arthurian-style romance in the courtly French and Breton traditions of the Middle Ages. Those tales--which form at least part of the source material for STAR WARS--are rife with this kind of "anguished heart" dialogue.

    The bottom line, some people like this kind of lovey-dovey stuff, and some people don't. Me, I kinda swoon when Padme tells Anakin she loves him, and I feel Anakin's tension when he is trying to convince Padme of the possibilities near the fireplace. It's all quite lovely and medieval, if you ask me.
     
  9. JediTidus

    JediTidus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 5, 2002
    I like the fireplace scene, you can really see that Anakin and Padme are uncomfortable. Of course the dialogue is going to be stitled, they are both very young when it comes to romance.
     
  10. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Good point, Tidus. I know when I was twenty years old, I said all kinds of woozy-headed things and made googly eyes at the girls I fell for. I'm sure a couple of "my heart beats, hoping that kiss won't become a scar" type statements escaped my lips in those days. That's what young love is all about. [face_love]
     
  11. homeless_jedi

    homeless_jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 16, 2002
    what people? everyone i know has no problem with it. maybe you just made this up.
     
  12. Skywalk272

    Skywalk272 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Feb 16, 2000
    I've been reading this thread backwords, and at first I thought dehrian was talking about Natalie Portman, and I was like :eek:



    [face_plain] :) :D
     
  13. tomm4004

    tomm4004 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 24, 2002
    As for the beginning of the scene, I think it's quite natural for two people to sit there quietly, each afraid to say something.

    The scene was very important. It established Anakin's attempt to go behind the back of the Jedi and marry in secret. Imagine an RC priest doing this. Scandalous. Lies and deceit are paving stones on the road to the dark side.

    Ok, I know that line was hokey, but so was the "haunted" line. The dialogue was trying to be big and other than that line I thought it was serviceable.

    I think the whole love story served its purpose. It's easy to see why Anakin falls in love with Padme, the leather notwithstanding. I mean, he once thought she was an angel. And the flip side. Hey, if I looked like that and had Jedi powers, I would hope it wouldn't be too difficult to get girls, especially one that has lived a rigidly structured and very proper life.

    The love story may have seemed rush, but consider all that Lucas has to squeeze into this films. I got the point of it.

     
  14. GirlJedi

    GirlJedi Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 10, 2000
    On my second viewing of AOTC today (in a digital theater) I think the fireplace scene is wonderful. It has just the right level of sexual tension. Basically Anakin is saying "Please" and Padme is saying "No. no don't feel that way and don't even think about it."

    And the silence and space in the beginning works well - it feels like we are coming into the scene after they've been talking for awhile, and obviously talking about intimate things, and growing closer - and are uncomfortable because things are very unresolved. And the acting is great!

    And i take back what I said about the pre-arena scene. That has beautiful emotional intensity, and I really liked what she said and how she said it. She was putting it all out there - heartfelt - and it was a turning point for both of them.
    When Anakin says "We had decided to not fall in love" he was really saying "You had decided" but love is not always rational. oh no.
     
  15. Dinoforce

    Dinoforce Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 21, 2002
    Very insightful GuiGonJinn84! I suppose we have to accept the accelerated timeline of the romance and see all the little details which led up to the fireplace scene. In terms of the Han/Leia romance, AOTC was done much better in terms of seeing them together and having a good time. I guess with the long wait between ANH and ESB, we assume that Han/Leia would have spent time getting to know each other so that the romance doesn't 'seem' so rushed. But we don't actually see them dating. In AOTC I really enjoyed the scenes at the lake, the picnic, the fruit and yes, the kisses. I thought Hayden did a great job with the difficult lines in the fireplace scene and his smoldering looks were quite intense. I was thinking, how could she reject him? She is insane.
     
  16. jjay

    jjay Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 1999

    Part of it is also Harrison's spontaneous and macho character. He brought acceleration of time and love to a standstill.

    Hayden is a puppet in Lucas's tight directing. Pretty much all his take on the character is lost and subdued.

    The lines were awful, the pacing was offbalanced and the chemistry was not there. Look at the Jack and Rose scene in Titanic and you will see Jack's humor, his arrogance, his suave, and his appeal all rolled into one (to get the girl to sleep with him).

    Hayden's performance can be better. Natalie's could be stunning. But I honestly belive George has never been seductive or charismatic in his whole life so I guess the scene leaves a lot to be desired.

    I agree that most or all Love scenes are cliches. But I don't believe love is dead and has been "done" to redundancy.

    Love is always fresh and invigorating. Why must George supress it?
     
  17. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 23, 2002
    We have to remember here- these 2 characters absolutely should never, EVER have any emotional feelings towards each other. Anakin is training, basically to be a monk, and Padme has lived the life of a personally emotionless politician.

    From the second Padme laid eyes on him- you could see she felt an immediate attraction/ connection with him. If you pay close attention when Anakin and Obi-Wan bicker in front of her on Corusant- she looks directly at Anakin when she says "Perhaps merely your presence here..." Already she's directing her attention to Anakin as being her main bodyguard, the man who will save her. She's uncomfortable, because she's getting used to viewing him as a young man- not a boy. And she's also uncomfortable with the idea of needing to be rescued.

    Padme from the very outset is totally confused by Anakins obvious advances ("She covered the cameras, I don't think she liked me watching her.") She's also fascinated by Anakin's spirit and catching up w/him after being apart for 10 years. He's a part of the government she has very little interaction with, nor has much knowledge of their society, and she finds him fascinating as a result. Both are dedicating their lives to the better good for the Republic -this and their past are their common ties.

    As they are taken away from their normal duties- they find themselves in a strange place where there is no daily grid to follow, and they are spending all of their free time together. Padme starts to come alive once they are off of Corusant.

    The balconey, meadow, fruit, fireplace and morning after nightmare scenes are a wonderful progression on how these 2 young people are in complete conflict with their emotions. Padme allows Anakin to kiss her- and then she comes to her senses. She spends the whole film fighting down her personal emotions that she's guarded her entire life. The fireplace scene is almost too much for her and she almost gives into her desires. The scene is uncomfortable mostly because it's highly symbolic. I have a complete interpretation of this in the Official Love Story thread that best explains why you feel uneasy during it.

    Padme's nearly breathless 'I'll go with you," when Anakin tells her he needs to go to Tatooine is spoken in a way that completely contradicts the way he told her he had to leave, "Senator, I know I'm disobeying my order to protect you..." You can tell she is no longer considering herself a politician or someone important, but is starting to view herself as Anakin's girlfriend. She agrees to follow him anywhere, and finds herself witnessing Anakin's trip to emotional hell on Tatooine. This just opens her up even more- she finds that she is needed as a woman. That she is in fact the rescuer in the relationship. And that her strength, maybe, can save him.

    What you really learn from their love is that Padme isn't really a complete person, until she confesses and tells Anakin that she's in love with him. When she does, you notice she's freer, more daring, and gets real spunk and spark in her life. Unfortunately, it's Anakins emotional instability that is the core of this connection. However, I don't think Padme would ever have found true happiness w/someone who was emotionally stable and completely boring, because that individual would be just like herself.

    What she needed was someone to rescue her from her boring hum-drum life (excluding assasination attempts, etc) and make her feel alive. Anakin does that and kindles the rebel spirit within herself.

    In the wedding scene, both are tentative even bewildered a bit by the magnitude of what they are doing. You can almost see the fear on their faces. Both are also different people than they were from the beginning of the film. Anakin has a harder look in his eye, and obviously a mechanical hand. Padmes eyes are filled w/ emotion -which is something we didn't get much of throughout the film.

    It will be interesting to see how George picks things up for EP III.
     
  18. Iggs

    Iggs Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    Hi!

    I liked the fact that there was a love story, I liked the fact that there was romance involved, it was a natural progression of the story but I hated the fact that everything was sooooo melodramatic that it drove me crazy. Why? It was so over the top, the dialogue, the (over)acting ... it was like a soap opera. It could have been much more natural and way more effective. Same with the scene when they are being taken to the arena ... instead of all the useless dialogue and melodrama ... it could have been as simple as:
    I love you ... smile ... kiss ...


    Iggs
     
  19. Dinoforce

    Dinoforce Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 21, 2002
    Great insights PadmeLeiaJaina and I agree with most of your analysis. The only part I disagree with is that Anakin rescues her from a boring hum-drum life. I don't think it is a case of rescuing her so much as reminding her that there is more to life than being a politician. He awakens in her a different view of herself. He sees her as a desirable woman and is not afraid to show it. She is scared of her feelings for him and is unsure of changing the focus of her life. I've been thinking of a way to lead into the scene better, (DarthRaptor: I agree that the long wait did not help the scene) and I think if we saw them discussing their future plans it may help. For example:

    Anakin: How many years do you think you will devote to politics?

    Padme: I'm not sure, but I want to make a difference in the galaxy. My work is all-consuming and very important to me.

    Anakin: Do you ever think of a life after politics?

    Etc or something along those lines.

    Then they can lead into their relationship and how it will affect their lives.

    It really isn't the same thing comparing Han/Leia with Anakin/Padme because Han is supposed to be a rogue and smooth w/ women. While Anakin is semi-obsessed with his first love and confused about how to stay in the Jedi Order and still have a relationship with her. He asks her "tell me what to do?"
    I don't hate the fireplace scene, I just want it to be a little better.

     
  20. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 23, 2002
    DinoForce- right I meant to say something to the effect of rescuing her from a life where she's not seen as a female- but just a public figure. All of that is greatly explored in the book. But you know- when you write things at 1am you start to lose focus!
     
  21. Hector

    Hector Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2001
    Something to keep in mind with ALL of the love scenes, is that we (the viewers) always come in in the middle (or end) of the conversation. There is a great deal that they've been catching up on that we aren't privy to (which is why every scene starts mid-thought), and the fireplace scene is no exception.

    So, they have a nice dinner and chat by the fire, we see the end of the conversation when Anakin finally has the courage to express himself. I would think that everyone here older than 19 has done essentially the same thing. I've done it myself, and it was far cheesier than Anakin's lines. And, like Anakin, it didn't work for me either.
     
  22. Fat_Fett

    Fat_Fett Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2001
    I don't.

    People don't hate the romance between Han and Leia because (most of us) saw it when we were still little kids, and as we grew up we never thought the scenes were cliched because we never thought that to begin with.

    And exactly how else are they supposed to tell eachother that they love one another? "Ummm, I really like you alot - I want to be more than friends!" C'mon!

    Now we are all (mostly) teens and adults. We've watched the OT enough that we consider each movie just about perfect, including the dialogue. We've come to expect too much of Star Wars, so some of us find it hilarious when we see just how bad the dialogue is because now we've grown up. Despite this, the more we watch it, the less absurd the scene and dialogue will seem to us.

    It's the same way with critics. When ESB came out, most critics hated it - now it is considered by many as the best Star Wars film and a 4 star movie. It takes time for critics to take their heads out of their asses and see how great these movies really are.

    With all the comments that critics make towards the "bad acting" in AOTC and TPM, you'd think that Mark Hamill was Orson Welles! Every person's love for Star Wars grows with multiple viewings and it takes time for some things to settle in. Give TPM about 5 more years, and give AOTC 7 more years, and critics will be hailing them as masterful films.

    And that's all I gotta say about that.
     
  23. Nomi Jade

    Nomi Jade Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    I enjoyed this scene. I never expected Oscar-winning dialogue, nor Oscar-winning acting. But it met my expectations. It was a welcome scene amidst the trashy modern movie love scenes- in fact, the whole movie was full of non-realistic love scenes. But doesn't that fit considering this is SW?

    Still, I found myself wanting all the Naboo scenes to be over with so we could get back to Kamino. ;)
     
  24. Now_Serving_No1138

    Now_Serving_No1138 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 28, 2002
    This is my least favourite scene the movie.

    At the midnight show I went to on 16 May there was a fine heckle during this scene. When Anakin says "If you are suffering as much as I am, please tell me", some guy in the theatre shouted "Yes we are!"

    It's the dialogue - it's beyond terrible. Lucas has always said that it wasn't meant to be Shakespeare and he seemed determined to prove it here [face_mischief]. I think that it could have been a great scene. A lot of people know what it is to love someone that much and to have to deal with not being able to be with them - this scene had a huge potential to really reach out to the audience but fell short for so many people. I'm sure it hit the spot for a lot of folks though.

    Also I agree with others here, this is where the pace of the romance is most problematic. With the Amidala family scenes reinserted in the DVD (or at least present on the disc) maybe we can fill in the gaps a bit.
     
  25. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2000


    I've seen it several more times now and in a galaxy far, far away, the scene works just fine. As others have noted, it's EXACTLY what Lucas wanted in terms of the dialogue.
    STAR WARS is not realistic and Anakin is supposed to be clumsy at expressing himself.
    Natalie is a bit weak in the scene, but the part at the end where she mentions "living a lie" she does fine.
     
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