Saga Why do people hate the prequels?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by QuiWanKenJin, Aug 5, 2010.

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  1. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Oh dont worry some of them act like that on LOTS of other websites and just clean it up when they come here because of the rules here. Its also very telling that once a lot of them discover this site and see the more (a little bit more) rational discussions/ideas/way of doing things they always warm up to Episodes 1,2 and 3 at least a little bit after a few weeks.
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  2. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    I was under the impression that teh two groups were supposed to hate each other :p

    Though I have also heard that that has changed since JJ's Trek
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  3. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    This is so true. So many people dont even KNOW about things like this to take into consideration and yet they bash the way they do, its things like that that are a dead give away when you see someone bashing but they dont even know fundamental things about the history of SW and how it changed everything by being different. A different kind of film.
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Feb 6, 2013
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  4. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Last edited by FRAGWAGON, Feb 6, 2013
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  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Firstly, do you actually want an answer or do you prefer to carry out both sides of this discussion?

    1) What you describe here isn't Presentational acting as such.
    This would be theatrical acting. On the stage you have maybe a painted background and a few props but you still have to act like you are in a palace or in the middle of a burning desert or at the edge of a waterfall. If a general is talking to an army of 10 000 there might just be five guys there.
    This requires the actor to use his or her imagination to picture the scene in their minds and use that to power their performance. Bluescreen acting is similar in many ways. But this doesn't make it Representational acting, which involves breaking the fourth wall, talking to the audience, making punes or wordplay aimed at the audience.
    This is what Chris Lee is talking about, an actor using their imagination and create a performance from that. But is closer to Representational acting, that the actor is fully imersed in the "reality" of the created world and never breaks character in any way.

    As an aside, based on the performances in the PT and the comments that some of the actors have made about Bluescreen work. To me it seemed that the older actors, like Mr Lee, were better at bluescreen acting than some of the younger actors. On the other hand Terence Stamp hated the bluescreen work and was disapointed that he didn't get to work with Natalie Portman.

    2) Is there really a lot of handwawing, raising of arms and such in the PT?
    Natalie, as the Queen in TPM is rather still in many of her scenes and doesn't make many gestures.
    Neither Ewan or Liam do lots of gestures either as far as I recall. There are some but not much.
    Jar Jar is the character that moves around quite a lot but much of that is physical comedy involving pratfalls and the like.

    3) Moving your hands in tune with the music isn't really Presentational acting either. I know that Sergio Leone sometimes played music from the soundtrack while scenes were filmed. But that doesn't make the acting Presentational because the actors isn't talking to the audience or things like that.

    4) Lastly, wheter or not the PT has Presentational acting, which you haven't showed to be the case, that doesn't make the film better or worse. If a film has a specific style of acting or way the scenes are filmed or whatever, that in of itself doesn't say wheter the film is good or bad.
    Like with most things, it is how WELL the acting is done, how WELL the scenes are shot etc.
    Simply saying "This film has Noir style acting and because of that it is great." is a fallacy.
    Wheter or not the style is present isn't nearly as important as how well the style works.

    For ex., almost the whole of Battlefield Earth was filmed with a Dutch Angle but that by itself didn't make the film better.

    In closing, if you feel that there are elements in the PT that some people overlook then great, if you feel that they are underappreciated then fine.
    But where I draw the line is when people start to argue "It is not enough that I like it, everyone who doesn't is WRONG!"

    If both sides can accept that people that like/dislike the PT or OT have valid reasons for doing this then we can discuss those reasons and wheter or not we agree with them. Simply dismissing either side for liking/disliking something because they are stupid or brainwashed by some websites is not only rude but stops any discussion dead.

    Oh, and for the record, I don't hate or even dislike the PT, I think they are overall ok to pretty good, not as good as ANH and ESB but not bad. There are bad things in them along with some good things.

    Bye.
    The Guarding Dark.
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Feb 7, 2013
  6. TheYankee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2006
    star 1
    I picked up my Star Wars fandom starting in '95, or around that point. So, yes, that means I had an affinity for the OT before I did the PT, but that doesn't make my opinion invalid as some around here seem to be suggesting.

    So what drew me to the original trilogy in the first place? The drama. The feel that this was really happening in a galaxy far, far away. There was a weight to the drama. It felt like the actors were invested in other galaxy related events. The prequel trilogy? It felt, from start to finish, like it was a bunch of actors thrown in front of a blue screen and told, "Make it work!" They were given little to no tools to make the fantasy feel like a reality, and it showed.

    Furthermore, the plot/script felt rushed and thrown together. I can accept little things like Yoda not really training Obi-Wan... that stuff doesn't bother me. What does bother me is paper thin romance plots. The Anakin/Padme romance not only paled in comparison to Han's and Leia's, it was actually non-existent. It was as if the directors said, "Hey, Hayden and Natalie, you're in love now," and the viewers were just supposed to accept that. I'd love to be proven wrong about that... but I don't know how you can explain to me how that romance felt "real." It felt forced. In other words, "Oh, Anakin and Padme are supposed to have twins in the original trilogy, so let's get this show on the road." This is my single biggest gripe about the PT, although it certainly doesn't end there.

    Where was the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin? When Obi-Wan told Luke, "... and he was a good friend," I took him at his word. In retrospect after ESB and RotJ, you went back to that line and said, "You know, it really hurt Obi-Wan to lose a friend." Instead, all I saw was Anakin being a whiny, petulant child during their entire relationship. By the time Revenge of the Sith rolled around, Anakin and Obi-Wan talk about all the adventures they had that made them closer to each other... but we never SEE any of that. Again, I'm expected to take the actors at their WORDS rather than by what happens on screen. In AotC, for the entirety of the film, Anakin is a boorish, shallow and obnoxious human being. He bitches about his master behind his back at every opportunity and whines incessantly to Padme and anyone else who will listen. But then, don't worry! Here comes Revenge of the Sith! Anakin has apparently saved Obi-Wan in between the two movies so, now they're great friends! TA DA! Aren't ya'll happy now?!

    I love the EU. I love the books, comics, etc. But when it comes to the magic of the film, the essence and base of Star Wars, I shouldn't have to rely on characters TELLING me why they're such great friends. I should be able to see that. I shouldn't have to rely on characters TELLING me why they're in love. I should be able to see that. I don't get any of that. In fact, I actually find The Phantom Menace to be among the best of the PT (at least equal to RotS... AotC was awful), because it doesn't try to shoehorn all that stuff in. There's an actual real relationship between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. There's an actual PURPOSE to that story, and that's to set the scene for the impending dark times to come.

    And what's with this idea that my disappointment in the prequel trilogy somehow diminishes or harms your fandom? How silly. What I feel shouldn't effect your enjoyment level. If you like the movies, by all means, keep watching them. As for me, I'll be replaying Episodes IV-VI at a pace of about 5 to 1 over the prequel trilogy, because THAT'S the Star Wars I feel has some emotion tied to it.
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  7. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    @ Samul Vimes:

    "making punes or wordplay aimed at the audience"

    -they do both these thing all throughout Star Wars.


    Simply saying "This film has Noir style acting and because of that it is great." is a fallacy


    -No. Thats your personal opinion.

    Like I said it doesn't have to be STRICTLY any kind of acting but overall its "romantic" stile acting like Lucas Himself says. Did you watch the videos of him posted? He even says that the acting is not whats important in his kind of films, the acting is secondary and will usually be considered put to better use by complementing the music/visuals or like you even said "making punes or wordplay aimed at the audience" at times even used in a consistent way "I have a bad feeling about this" "Why do I get the feeling your going to be the death of me" or one of my favorites: Cloud Car Pilot: "you will not deviate from your present course!" --And for the rest of the film they dont. And the visuals show things like star destroyers like "arrows" pointing the falcon (and the audience) to what direction they are going to go. See, its stuff like this thats important to lucas. The bigger picture.

    The actors are just moving along the story up there on the limited stages/sets just like Dorothy and the gang in the Wizard of Oz on the yellow brick rode standing in from of the matte painting of the endless grassy hills of Oz.

    "It is not enough that I like it, everyone who doesn't is WRONG!"

    Thats NOT what we are saying. Thats not what I am saying. We are saying what we want "everyone" to do is stop saying:

    "its not enough that I DON'T like it, everyone who likes it is wrong and anyone who watches it as Lucas spent his career constructing it to be watched is doing it WRONG!"


    Thats is all that Fans of George Lucas's Star Wars Saga are saying. Thats all.
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Feb 7, 2013
  8. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4

    I 2nd that. Well Said!

    It really is frighting to see how people find ways to make fun of virtually EVERY SINGLE serious scene and im not talking about spoofs here, Im talking about seeing a 13 year old boys face go dead serious angry as hell and stick his chest out and point at my little cousin's Jar-Jar T-shirt and yell "F*** Jar-jar!" and also making a loud homophobic slur using a 3 letter word to describe Jar-jar-Binks.

    What Many Many Star Wars fans are trying to say now a days is: "Ok Enough!" This out of control bias on the internet is what TEACHES kids like the one I just described. Again, thats all.

    Even if you dont like the character that s FINE. But realize that the WHOLE ENTIRE POINT of the character and much of TPM was/is to teach TOLERANCE! TOLERANCE. not INTOLERANCE.

    So that fact that bitter, angry internet nerds are teaching our kids to describe SW character using 3 letter words is disgusting and ridiculous. But realize it keeps going on. Go over to youtube or imdb right now and you will see them.
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  9. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    =D==D= Really - I don't mind those who dislike the PT and articulate why. Many do so. Many more come in guns blazing about how horrible the PT is, how could "anyone like the PT" and they must not appreciate good film-making. Why can't those folks restrain themselves to why THEY don't like 'em rather than characterizing those of us who do? Why be so antagonistic?

    And the reason we fight back: we are darn tired of being talked down, condemned for liking "drivel" and all - it's time to take back our PT and stand up for what we like. That's all. We've been pushed around for years, (many/most of us) tried to stay out of fights by and large, and personally I'm tired of the putdowns and starting to call people on it.

    To be sure this is one of my pet peeves - the lack of show and the disproportionate amount of time showing petulant Anakin to a more mature (for his age) Anakin - but to be fair, it is not 100% of the time or the movie and I find it a great annoyance rather than a reason to dislike the film itself.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Feb 7, 2013
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  10. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    @obi-rob-kenobi4 : I just have to ask about your current signature, out of curiosity...

    "At long last there is NO PT or OT anymore! Just the OS (Original Saga) vs. ST (sequel trilogy).

    And the Original Six film Star Wars Saga by George Lucas will always be the TRUE Saga."

    Is this meant to sound as negative towards the new movies as it does? Doesn't this seem a bit inconsistent with your prior position that everyone should accept all the SW movies together as a whole? Or was your position really that George Lucas himself was more important than SW? Just seems odd given that Lucas chose to sell to Disney, and is still involved as a consultant on these new movies.

  11. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4

    Pretty much this. Vader telling Luke that Obi-wan once thought as you do, seems a nonsense after what happened in Sith from his perspective.

    Talking of the Sith, Why have they been extinct for melenia and why do they want revenge, if you just watch the films and leave out all the EU you will never know.

    Clones makes no sense whatsoever, right from the start with Padme's saying she thinks Count Dooku (who is Dooku why is he a SIth) was behind her assassination. Now if she is opposed to the military creation act and he is the leader of the systems that are breaking away (why is that not allowed anyway) and it could come to war, why does she think Dooku would bump off the woman who is stopping an army being made to fight them :confused:
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Obi-Wan did, in the sense that he begins the fight with words- and keeps trying to convince him to stop doing what he's doing- "Anakin, the Sith are evil!"
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  13. TheYankee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2006
    star 1
    That's fair. Too me, that is the problem. It's missing a vital part of the relationship between two of the biggest protagonists in the Star Wars saga. Without it, it's a hollow special effects light show, and that doesn't appeal to me like the OT did.
  14. TheYankee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2006
    star 1
    You keep speaking a good game when you say things like this, but then you turn around and berate the segment of us who like the OT by leaps and bounds over the PT by setting up strawmans and knocking them down.

    "This is so true. So many people dont even KNOW about things like this to take into consideration and yet they bash the way they do, its things like that that are a dead give away when you see someone bashing but they dont even know fundamental things about the history of SW and how it changed everything by being different. A different kind of film."

    Well, sure, that's an easy strawman to knock down. Nobody said this that I can see, and you're using this to create your own (fallacious) argument for those of us who were disappointed by the PT, and then you knock it down and puff out your chest and scream for "tolerance," and the like.

    That's not how it works, and that's not a great way to come to an "understanding," as you claim to want.

    And then, quite ironically, you have the gall to post a signature in your thread that lauds the laurels of the "ONE TRUE TRILOGY GEORGE LUCAS MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE," which clearly is intended as a swipe at the Star Wars saga post-George Lucas. "And the Original Six film Star Wars Saga by George Lucas will always be the TRUE Saga." Do you honestly not understand how ironic this is?
    Last edited by TheYankee, Feb 7, 2013
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  15. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    "Nobody said this that I can see"

    People say it on many other places than just this thread. If you want to go around accusing people of using tactics than one could also easily say that you are using the tired "acting like it doesn't go on just because it wasn't witnessed here" tactic.

    And you wanna talk about people puffing up their chests? Why dont you step off and get off my back for appreciating The Star Wars Saga. You bet Im an unapologetic fan and guess what, I dont apologize for it. At all. TPM would be my favoret of the Saga if I could pic a favorite. The only ones who ever historically "puff out their chests" are the right wing of the SW fanbase (or what ever the HELL it is you are "comfortable" with calling your selves) on youtube and on imdb and on the amazon page for the blu-ray box set when it came out that turned into a WAR ZONE of trolls and hate talk and death threats to Lucas and his family to the point where the page was actually brought down for a day (to which the bashers gloated happily about on deviant websites like 4chan and OT.com).

    Maybe you should simply take a look back and read through this thread and absorb some of the open and rational ideas that have been pointed out and discussed. Other than that I have nothing else to say.
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Feb 7, 2013
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  16. TheYankee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2006
    star 1
    So, what's your endgame here? Did you just post this so everyone on this forum would come around and give you a hearty slap on the back and say, "Hear, hear! I agree!" If it's not a problem here, what's the beef you're getting at, and what are you hoping to accomplish by carrying on a 62 page discussion on it?

    Except, I have no problem with you appreciating the saga. So, how exactly could I be puffing out my chest?

    Great. I'm a fan too. Good for you.

    Oh, well done. Now you've gotten to the point where you can characterize a segment of the fanbase based on political nomenclature. You're really on a roll here.

    You still didn't answer my point, though. You apparently have no idea how ironic it is that you're blasting folks for disliking the PT, but then simultaneously trumpeting in your signature your disdain for the Disney acquisition by declaring, "And the Original Six film Star Wars Saga by George Lucas will always be the TRUE Saga." :rolleyes:

    I really hope you're trolling to a point here, because if you seriously don't see the irony and hypocrisy of those two lines of thought, that's incredulous.

    Yes, I know. Anyone that agrees with you is a rational thinker and anyone on my side of the aisle is a the "right wing" of the SW fanbase. :rolleyes:
    Last edited by TheYankee, Feb 7, 2013
  17. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
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