Lit Why do Sith Masters encourage their apprentices to kill them?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Why_So_Serious, May 7, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I'm not sure I consider the Galactic Empire a true "Sith empire" in the vein of Vitiate's or Krayt's; it was, more accurately, an empire ruled by a Sith. As far as success is concerned, Palpatine's Empire is supreme in terms of political and military achievement. Krayt is second and Vitiate is a distant third.
    rumsmuggler and Jedi Merkurian like this.
  2. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Lol I always wondered this.
    I think it's a bit of discontinuity really. The whole point was that Bane wanted the Sith to eventually destroy the Jedi, even if not himself (which doesn't really make sense tbh because Sith aren't really like that, they're more selfish). And that way the sith will always get stronger as a whole.
    But since when do sith care about that? They just care about self power and what not
  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I didn't get that impression from the OT. Vader served the empire because he wanted to bring order to the galaxy (his own words) and when said order couldn't be achieved with Palpatine at the helm he tried to dispose of the guy. Even during RotJ he wanted to dispose of his master as the novel proves.
    Sure, in RotS he wanted to kill Palps too, but Obi-Wan beat some sense in the then monomaniacal kid. Can't rule an Empire with no political experience and Sith knowledge. Vader must have realized he first needed to learn all the skills he needed and that would easily take 20 years.

    Vader is a very crafty manipulator. He manipulated Palpatine in TESB for one and fools frigging Lando Calrissian. Then he spits lies what a poor guy his is and how he only serves his master at Luke and his son believes it. Later does an 180° and almost turns Luke to the Dark Side.
    Palpatine wouldn't chose an unworthy apprentice, he would only accept the best.

    About the scene of Endor:
    I think the part of him that was still Anakin really believed in what he was telling Luke. He wasn't ready to face the horror of his own deeds and so he made Palpatine the scapegoat. But he was still full of hunger for power and wanted to make Luke his plus kill the Emperor. His mind was very conflicted at the time.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  4. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Honestly, destroying the Jedi is a natural part of any Sith Plot that involves conquering the Galaxy.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  5. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Vader served the Empire because he wanted to save Padme. He continued to serve them because after the destruction of her and the Jedi he had nothing to turn back too. It's not like Vader would willingly admit "I'm the Emperor's bitch." Pretending he wanted to bring order to the galaxy was just a way of justifying his actions.

    What skills would have taken 20 years?? He was already considered the most powerful living Jedi by 23BBY.

    No, that;s not why he didn't overthrow Palpatine. His abilities were vastly reduced inside the suit, and he could never challenge Palpatine in open combat. Not to mention that Palpatine was the head of a fanatically loyal army, killing Palpatine didn't even guarantee that Vader would become the Emperor.
  6. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    They worked generation by generation for 1000 years culminating in the destruction of the Jedi. Sounds like they cared about it a lot.
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What do you think kept him alive those 20 years? Padmé was dead so he had to find something else to live for. This something happened to be the Empire and mastering the Dark Side. Even as far back as AOTC he believed in dictatorship.

    I don't like this school of thought where the force is the only worthwhile thing to learn. Vader lacked political skills in RotS, he was also barely capable of controlling his own emotions and very immature. In real life to learning to be an excellent politician and/or military leader will easily cost you 20+ years. Plus while I think it is not that difficult to learn the dark side, to truly master it would still take a couple of years and not a couple of days. Without Palpatine tutelage he would've remained the fool we have seen in RotS.

    I know this is what George (Mr creative consultant) says but the OT and the Purge comics give a completely different picture. Note that yes, Vader is indeed the one who kills Palpatine and he does so while injured and weaponless. He is also very perceptive, capable of force choking through a hologramm and pulls off a lot of other insane stunts, like surviving a fight against eight Jedi masters (Purge 1). He also just recently saved Palpatines ass in both Ninth Assassin and Ghost prison.

    But you are right that just killing Palpatine wouldn't make him Emperor. It took time (about 20 years, what a surprise) for Vader to rise through the Empires ranks.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
  8. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Well in 20 years of political plotting he was still Tarkin's errand boy, and had to resort to chocking Moffs when they made fun of the Force. What a political mastermind.
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    He wasn't Tarkins errant boy. He was tasked by the Emperor to retrieve the stolen data plans and watch the Death Stars officer staff for hints of treason.

    But of course Tarkin was commander of the Death Star and therefore in command over anything that happened on said Death Star. Therefore, on the Death Star, Tarkin technically held all the power.

    It was also hinted that Motti planned treason I think in the radio drama which was the reason why Vader force choked him. He had to make absolutely clear what would happen to anyone who attempted something stupid.

    Nonetheless I don't think Vader is a good politician. His diplomacy skills are pretty lacking and he has too much pride and impatience to play nicely with who he perceives as scum (Prince Xizor). I find these faults endearing.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  10. Grand Admiral Crumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2013
    star 1
    Did Palpatine know about Maw Installation? I know Admiral Daala doesn't think he did, but if Tarkin didn't intend to use its weapons as some sort of leverage against Palpatine, why would he hide its existence from him?
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the novels that focus on Maw Installation, Daala at least seems to believe Palpatine doesn't know about it.

    Palpatine being who he is though, he might know but be feigning ignorance.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  12. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I'm not denying Vader is "a very crafty manipulator." But double-crossing Lando Calrissian hardly equates to manipulating the massed ranks of the Senate, Jedi order, Confederacy of Independent Systems, et al. for over a decade. Palpatine's accomplishments as a strategist and manipulator, in no uncertain terms, dwarf those of Vader. I know you don't particularly like Sidious, but those are the facts.

    With respect to manipulating Sidious about Luke, all he did was inadvertently supply Sidious with the idea of replacing Vader with Luke. This is not what I'd consider to be a successful ploy.

    I understand that this is how you'd prefer to interpret events and I don't necessarily disagree, but a retcon is a retcon.

    Vader's "injuries" amounted to amputation of a cybernetic hand and he killed Sidious who was distracted torturing the hell out of Vader's son. Extant canon, both films and otherwise, makes it abundantly clear that Vader could not take Sidious in a "fair fight" and it's silly to imply otherwise. Neither the OT nor Purge imply otherwise; Vader was spared the effects of the nanovirus because of his suit's breathing apparatus and filtration system and Sidious's EU combat feats indeed outstrip Vader's by a considerable margin.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not just a hand amputation- in The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, it's made clear that he suffered a leg injury in Luke's attack as well.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I am not a great fan of the PT and a lot of Palpatines manipulative abilities are "told", not shown. As a strategist he was a failure during the OT as well as PT because he made lots of severe blunders and became Emperor pretty much because his opponents were hilariously dumb. Still, I'll admit that he might've been a better manipulator, but only by a small margin because like I said, he acts very stupidly most of the time and not at all like I would picture a great manipulator. But I do like some portrayals of Palpatine so the character is not all bad for me. Most of the time he annoys me though, this authors pet.

    I think they were both aware it would inevitably lead to that sooner or later. Vader was too ambitious in the long run.

    Depends on the source, I'd say. In some works Vader is depicted as pathetic (Empire comics 1-4) compared to Palpatine, in others he is superior to his old man (just recently Ninth assassin or Ghost Prison). I think we can argue day and night about this but the truth is that the EU itself has not found a consensus. In any case Palps didn't appear all that great in RotJ. He just blindly continues shooting lightning and seemingly can't find another weapon against Vader. You say it wasn't a fair fight but why the hell should Sith care about fair fights? And if it wasn't a fair fight, who was at the disadvantage, really? The injured and weaponless guy or the surprised guy who should've been aware of what could happen anyway?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Also I am not retconning. RotJ novel is still "G-canon", for all that is worth (not much...).
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Irregular Webcomic has an entertaining take on Vader's "He would be a great asset" comment in ESB:

    http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/380.html

    Strictly, anything that originates with an author, rather than Lucas, in a novelization, is C-Canon. Unfortunately it's sometimes hard to tell which that was.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, May 18, 2013
    Circular_Logic and Son of a Bith like this.
  17. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    In other words, because Palpatine does not comport with your personal standards for a strategist and manipulator par excellence, he's not one? And then you assign an arbitrary difference between his manipulative skills and those of Vader?

    I'm not quite following your methodology here because it sounds to me that you're intently, deliberately seeking to undermine character X relative to character Y because you hate X and love Y.

    And you don't think this distaste might somehow be clouding your judgment?

    Where is Vader's ambition cited by Sidious as a reason for his replacement?

    Kindly point me to where in those comics Vader is depicted as "superior" to Sidious. That he didn't succumb to the Aorth-6 virus was due solely to his artificial respiratory system, which is why Trachta--a Forceless mook-- was similarly unaffected.

    Respectfully, I don't think that's an honest and accurate assessment. There has been a consensus in the EU and it has spanned decades from The Mandalorian Armor to The Rise of Darth Vader to Betrayal to In His Image and so on, ad infinitum. Palpatine's powers and abilities eclipse those of Vader; comparing their feats indicates it and textual narration outright confirms it.

    I'm not saying that Sith care about "fair fights." But you're attempting to use Vader's killing of Sidious as proof of Vader's superiority. If I shoot Chuck Liddell in the head with a 9mm, I'm still not the better martial artist. All ROTJ proves is that killing Sidious, even if successful, is a suicide mission for Vader.
  18. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    So
    So if you claim that he was training to be Emperor for 20 years why couldn't he maneuver himself into position to command the DS? And nobody was committing treason in that scene Vader chokes Motti because his feelings are hurt when he says the Force is a hoax.
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Well, obviously my view is clouded by my likes and dislikes just like it is with any human being. But it's not as if I haven't pointed out a lot of scenes in which Palpatine acted stupidly in other discussions. I see no reason why to restart that topic. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

    Plus note I didn't say he was stupid, just that he acted stupidly on lots of occasions, probably because it is very difficult to properly write a genius manipulator. GL failed doing it and so did many EU authors after him (my opinion).

    As he didn't want to replace Vader in TESB as evidenced by the dialogue, it seems to be the most obvious reason.

    Palpatine choses not to wear any protective gear despite repeated assassination attempts - yes, that is a kind of weakness, a mental weakness. Why he would constantly wear bathrobes I never understood.

    In the recent Ninth assassin he also didn't notice his throne was a bomb until he was rescued by Vader.

    Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on that, unless you want this evolve into a quote war.

    Well, how am I supposed to interpret the scene then? On the scene we see several things:

    Palpatine doesn't recognize the threat until Vader turns on him - lack of perceptiveness
    Palpatine's only defense is to blast away with lightning
    When he is thrown into the shaft, he can't levitate upwards to save himself
    Oh, and Vader is handicapped when he deals with Palpatine

    I'm not sure how that is supposed to fit with all the über-depictions of Palpatine in the EU. I find no sense in all of these. On general I prefer when he is depicted in line with his movie portrayal.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Read up on Wook. Motti was planning treachery.

    Yes, it does take 20 years to climb the ladder of command in the empire, as it is an "galactic empire" and not school football team.
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Pleas
    Please show me the ladder Vader climbed. Show me the upgrades in his rank over his 20 years with the Empire. Or did he more likely hold the exact same rank for 20 years because he was a pathetic servant. I don't think any HS football players wait that long for a starting position.
  22. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    -I'm not sure how that is supposed to fit with all the über-depictions of Palpatine in the EU. I find no sense in all of these. On general I prefer when he is depicted in line with his movie portrayal.

    It seems you like to stick with movie portrayals when it suits you, but then turn around and pick and choose literature references to prove other points.
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, May 18, 2013
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The literature stuff is of secondary importance. Sometimes it fits well with the movies, other times it doesn't. Motti as a traitor fits quite well with the portrayal of the man in ANH, essence transfer doesn't fit with RotJ.

    He initially commanded only one Star Destroyer most of the time, during Empire he commanded entire Death Squadron, which consisted of dozens of ships and was "Supreme Commander of Imperial Forces".
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
  24. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah I don't think there was a higher rank for Vader to achieve, besides emperor. And as we see in ESB he had his sights set on it.
    Jedi Merkurian and Darth_Pevra like this.
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Palps needed much more than twenty years to become Emperor as well. It is simply put not at all an easy task.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.