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Lit Why do Sith Masters encourage their apprentices to kill them?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Why_So_Serious, May 7, 2013.

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  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    You haven't actually pointed out lots of scenes where Palpatine "acted stupidly." You've simply declared that he was handed victory through no action of his own but the whims of a contrived script. But with all due respect to your personal tastes, the bottom line is that Vader isn't a comparable manipulator and strategist to the man who manipulated a galaxy simply because Vader altered terms of an agreement with Lando Calrissian.

    I suggest we go with the reason actually ascribed: namely that Luke had the potential to surpass Vader as a Force user and Palpatine is constantly seeking the shiniest tool.


    Surely you're not suggesting that superior Force power is determined by... fashion? You're moving the goalpost: Force mastery isn't determined by what one happens to be wearing and while I absolutely agree that Jedi and Sith Masters should be decked out in full armor at all times, your argument is wafer-thin.

    And this, too, is indicative of inferior Force power?

    Generally, a "quote war" challenging Palpatine is a doomed enterprise for reasons you've already acknowledged. But that's the point, isn't it? Palpatine has the better feats and the better quotes.


    I would recommend interpreting the scene as it has been interpreted by canon authorities: that Vader exploited a momentary position of weakness in Sidious, who was distracted and unsuspecting, and managed to slay him... while dying in the process. Pointing out that Vader was missing a hand and had a gimp leg in an attempt to exaggerate the extent of his victory somewhat undermined by the fact that he's a 7' cyborg with superhuman strength. I could just as easily say it's embarrassing that he died at all wrestling a 5'9" octogenarian.

    In other words, put Sidious and Vader in a boxing ring and Sidious comes out winning every time. He's simply more powerful and that has been demonstrated again and again and again.

    More accurately, you seem to prefer him when he is depicted in a single scene in one of the five films in which we see him. In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine shows greater power and skill than film!Vader ever did.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Can Palpatine levitate in the EU?
  3. Grand Admiral Crumb Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2013
    star 1
    @Darth_Pevra I wouldn't call that increases in rank, just Palpatine giving him more responsibilities probably to give him something to do so he's not hovering around the Imperial Palace all the time, and if he's gallivanting around the galaxy he's less likely to be scheming and enacting some revenge or coup d'etat. The only rank above Vader is Palpatine himself.
  4. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    He does in The Force Unleashed graphic novel.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Not wearing a proper disguise when dealing with Neimoidians
    Treating his allies, the Neimoidians like idiots
    Sending Maul at the Jedi when it wouldn't advance his plans
    Torturing a son in front of his father
    Being ill-prepared for Windu and his Jedi in the office
    Sending the same man who is the template for the clone army after Padmé Amidala
    Underestimating Luke
    Underestimating the rebels
    Underestimating Vader of all people
    Must I really go on?

    EMPEROR He could destroy us.
    VADER He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
    EMPEROR The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
    VADER If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
    EMPEROR Yes. Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
    VADER He will join us or die, my master.

    Doesn't give the impression that the Emperor is interested in Lukes survival. Vader's basically dangling a carrot in front of his face and Palpatine takes the bait.

    Danger sense is a force power, yes.

    Ah, so Vader, who is injured and without a weapon, doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. How can they seriously expect me to buy that nonsense? Do they think the fans are totally stupid?

    In the same movie he was overpowered by Mace Windu. Aside from his force lightning he also does TK, which Vader also can do, with multiple objects at the same time. But let me guess, Windu also had an "unfair advantage" on him, so it doesn't count, right?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Supreme Commander is a rank.

    Lol at Vader hovering at the Palace. Vader is rarely at the palace, in most works he is on commissions all the time.
  8. Grand Admiral Crumb Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2013
    star 1
    Supreme Commander is a title, his rank is Dark Lord of the Sith. Who at any point between 19 BBY and 4 ABY outranks Vader except Palpatine?
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Good question. Wook doesn't give an answer about his rank before TESB, it is only mentioned he "held several titles" and was a "warlord", whatever that means. Most of the time he acts like he has total powers. He can easily kill an Admiral, for instance. I think grand moffs and grand admirals are off limits unless he gets the okay from Palpatine.
  10. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Get to the parts that outweigh manipulating the Trade Federation, Republic Senate, Dooku, the Jedi order, the Confederacy of Independent Systems, and yes, Vader, too into handing him ultimate political power and ruling the galaxy for two decades.

    All I'm seeing now is evidence that Sidious isn't omniscient or above tactical errors... which no one denied.

    He wasn't. Let's use your prescribed logic here: He, intelligently, seeks to neutralize a potential threat before it becomes an actual one. Vader, stupidly, seeks to use said potential threat as a pawn for his own schemes. Palpatine is persuaded that Luke could be an asset; but whereas Vader is suggesting that Luke be an asset to them, and secretly Vader alone, the Emperor hijacks that plot and begins to cook up a scheme that will see Vader replaced by Luke.

    ROTJ shows us that it is Palpatine, and not Vader, who comes closest to achieving his goal: Luke puts Vader on his ass and is a hair's breadth from ending his life... which is exactly where Palpatine wants him.

    In other words, Palpatine undermines Vader's goal by using the very plan Vader himself intended to use against Palpatine in the first place... which is further proof of Sidious's superiority as a manipulator and tactician.

    And an isolated incident of Vader sensing a trap that Palpatine didn't... undermines other times when Palpatine's precognition/foresight/clairvoyance/superhuman senses are even more acutely tuned?


    I think this conversation is proof enough that without canonical authorities stating the obvious, people will twist things to suit their own interpretation. As far as Vader being "unarmed" is concerned, he's a Sith Lord, is he not? Pretty sure he's not confined to just a red glowstick for defense. And "injured"? Once again... he's a 7' cyborg with superhuman strength and outrageous durability feats. His opponent, in this case, is a physically frail 5'9" octogenarian. You can dispense with the notion that Vader was, somehow, at a spectacular disadvantage in terms of footing.


    Do you know what you get when you rearrange the letters of M-A-C-E W-I-N-D-U? If your answer is: "Not Darth Vader," you get a cookie.

    Seriously not sure why this point is being raised. No one has suggested Palpatine is invincible or omnipotent so I'm literally clueless as to what his defeat at Mace's hands has to do with anything we're talking about here.

    Palpatine throws multiple Senate platforms the size of Humvees like a child might throw a handful of Matchbox cars. Vader throwing a couple of air conditioning units at Luke hardly equates. When Vader crushed the laboratory in ROTS (trying to kill his Master in the novel), Sidious stood by, unaffected and smiling.

    It doesn't matter where you take this. In both the films and the EU, Palpatine is the superior swordsman, the superior Force user, and the superior mastermind.
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  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    He makes almost nothing but errors in the PT but still wins. So why should I as an audience buy into his supposed genius?

    Yes, offing Luke would've been an intelligent choice.
    But what you ignore here is that Vader is emotionally involved. He'd rather turn his own son than kill him. This doesn't prove he is ignorant of the risks involved in his path of action.

    Palpatine almost succeeded with turning Luke, yes, but the Death Star would be destroyed no matter what. And in the end, he did underestimate Lukes resolve.

    Sure, Palpatine was trying to use his plan against Vader. I think both were perfectly aware that the other is plotting.

    This isn't an isolated incident. Palpatine also claimed that everything was proceeding as planned but then was killed by Vader.

    Neither can you claim Palpatine was at an disadvantage by being "surprised".

    Maybe I misunderstood you but it certainly comes off that way quite often.

    If the genius were only "shown" in the movie, because I saw none. As for swordmanship he only beat a couple of redshirts, the overrated midget and didn't even draw his lightsaber during the OT.

    He is certainly a powerful force user, though. Just not that über-mighty as you seem to think he is. His skills have limitations.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
  12. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Except that that isn't the case. I understand all too well the pervasive nature of Plinkett-fueled propaganda, but it's been thoroughly and utterly debunked by various e-personages from Stardestroyer.net's Jim Raynor to our very own @Arawn_Fenn. Undoubtedly the depiction of Palpatine's rise to power was abridged in the films, in that there was more to it than what was covered in three 2.5 hour movies, but he hardly made "almost nothing but errors" in the PT.

    If I had to venture a guess as to why you don't "buy into his supposed genius," it might have to do with the fact that it makes him look smarter than Vader?


    So if tactical errors are committed in the name of arrogance, they're stupid, but if they're committed in the name of love, they're not stupid? Why should I accept flimsy excuses for Vader's blunders but not Sidious's?

    You continue to misread me. I'm well aware that Palpatine failed; my point is simply that he came closer to success than Vader, suggesting greater skill with strategy and manipulation.

    Which, again, only proves Palpatine's full of crap and thinks he's unstoppable when he's not. I'm not insinuating he's omnipotent, I'm simply explaining that he's more powerful than Vader.


    Why not?

    This confusion owes much to you playing armchair Miss Cleo. Rather than read into my words, just read them, please. No where have I suggested Palpatine is omniscient or omnipotent; he's not. He's simply more powerful than Vader.

    Oh, please. And Vader lost to a Luke Skywalker whose awe-inspiring dueling technique mirrored Sammy Sosa, swinging spastically at the batter's plate in the throes of a methamphetamine-induced craze. We can't all be perfect.
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, May 18, 2013
  13. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    LOL at implying that Sidious taking on Yoda doesn't trump any lightsaber feat Vader has.

    Last edited by DarthJenari, May 18, 2013
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Nonsense. I can form my own opinion. But obviously you think I only buy "into the propaganda". Should I even bother discussing with you?

    I simply don't like the PT much, it has nothing to do with Plinkett.

    It was simply not Vaders goal to kill Luke if he wasn't forced to do this. Does this sentimentality weaken him? Yes, it does. But it is no more stupid than Luke Skywalker protecting those he loves.

    Again, I don't see that skill in most of the stories. Suggesting isn't enough! It is a rare story in which Palpatine is written as intelligent, and yes, I usually prefer that interpretation of the character. I only hate Palpatine when he is written as authors pet which happens far too often.

    Okay, this is something I can easier accept. But initially the discussion resulted from someone claiming Vader was a "pathetic slave" and this I don't believe. Vader is definitely powerful enough to challenge Palpatine and under some circumstances defeat him.

    Because, obviously, surprise is a smaller disadvantage then missing your hand and weapon? Maybe I don't get your logic as this really makes 0 sense.

    You jumped into an discussion which was about whether Vader was a pathetic slave or not. What do you expect?

    Vader is not a great sabermaster even though I don't like comparing the OTs saberfights with the PTs. These stylistic differences are caused by one trilogy being made in the 80ties and the other twenty years later. There ought to be differences in special effects. In the EU Vader kicks plenty of PT Jedi butt.
  15. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But earlier you claimed he climbed up the ranks. He held the exact same rank of supreme commander from 19bby to 4bby according to your preferred reference wookieepedia.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Wook is not infallible. Not sure where the rank of supreme commander is first mentioned and if a date is given. I doubt he held it in ANH because then Mottis behavior would appear extremely foolish...
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 18, 2013
  17. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Exactly. That's the point. That's not the kind of thing the Sith we know would do. Teamwork and what not.
  18. bellatroll Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2013
    The apprentice slaying his master makes sense as a system of succession in a Sith Empire with numerous amibitious Sith. The idea of climbing to the top, becoming the apprentice and eventually the dark lord would keep the empire together since every Sith would have it.
    Last edited by bellatroll, May 18, 2013
  19. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Btw, in regards to the topic's question, I think it's not so much that Sith Masters encourage their apprentices to kill them, but that's it's an inevitable byproduct of what the Sith believe. The Sith think the Republic is weak, or that the Jedi are weak, and think it's their job to destroy or subjugate them. Well eventually a Sith apprentice is going to look at his/her master and think "you're not doing so great yourself today..."
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  20. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    According to wookieepedia, he was Supreme Commander since 19BBY.
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    So what were you wondering about? Bane refined the philosophy of the Sith so that they could be more successful in their overall goal of galactic dominance.
  22. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    So what were you wondering about? Bane refined the philosophy of the Sith so that they could be more successful in their overall goal of galactic dominance.[/quote]

    The point is that as cool as the whole "bane sith rule of two" thing is, compared to everything else we know about the Sith from the movies and literature is not at all combatible with the principle.
    Apart from Bane himself, of all the sith that have been portrayed in literature and on film so far, how many do you think would love for to be killed so the goals of the sith can be moved forward . . .
    couldn't think of any?
    me neither.
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  23. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 5
    Exactly Sith are not about sacrificing themselves for the great good of the Sith Order.
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  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yea, but I'm not sure where they got this from as in ANH it didn't appear as if he were supreme commander.
  25. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    The point is that as cool as the whole "bane sith rule of two" thing is, compared to everything else we know about the Sith from the movies and literature is not at all combatible with the principle.
    Apart from Bane himself, of all the sith that have been portrayed in literature and on film so far, how many do you think would love for to be killed so the goals of the sith can be moved forward . . .
    couldn't think of any?
    me neither.[/quote]
    Sidious. Maul. Vader. Tyranus. They all pledged their lives to the order of the Sith and Banes philosophy. Sidious was constantly seeking out the most powerful apprentices, he even stated "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us." Implying that he knew and accepeted his power would be surpassed.
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