Why do some STAR WARS fans still have a problem with the premise of Midi-Chlorians ??? (AN OPINION.)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by currentswillshift, Jul 24, 2002.

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  1. currentswillshift Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2002
    It is just a way for Lucas to quanitfy FORCE powers within an individual. It is no less mysterious than just having the premise be solely "THE FORCE." It also would explain how Padawans were found in the Old Republic, and how the Jedi Order came to be.

    It is only a way to guage the strength of the FORCE powers within the individual, and their potential when weilding it.

    This does not destroy the mystery of THE FORCE, if anything it still remains a mystery as to how or why it is drawn to certain individuals (it is random).

    And it still does not change the idea that the "FORCE" is in all things (just in different quantities). Midi-chlorians help explain the strength, or lack of FORCE.
    Also, who is to say that FORCE training does not make one's Midi-Chlorian count increase or decrease, thus FORCE powers increase or decrease???

    Also it makes no difference in OT that this is not explained to Luke, because it is not necessary. YODA and OBI-WAN already know the potential LUKE holds, and it is more important for him to understand how to use his gift in a short time period. Why would it be important for him to get caught up in "counting" midi-chlorians or figuring who's got the most Midi-Chlorians garbage???? Plus there are only a few Jedi left at the time of OT. Why would Midi-Chlorians matter at that point, when their is no longer any Jedi Order or young Padawans to single out to train???

    Who knows there are still some things we may yet find out about the FORCE and Midi-Chlorians, either way nothing changes in my mind.

    Maybe if Lucas decided to do 7,8, and 9, then Midi-Chlorians would become important once again, in building a new Jedi Order.
  2. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    Why do some STAR WARS fans still have a problem with the premise of Midi-Chlorians?

    Some people, myself not included, feel that Midichlorians cheapen the idea of the Force. They say that your ability to use the Force should hinge on whether or not you are disiplined enough to be trained in the Force, NOT whether you have a certain number of parasites swimming around in your blood.

    However, I believe that midichlorians are not the Force, as anti-midichlorian fans say, but just the link between the physical (living things) and the mystical (the Living Force). If you look at it like that, it really doesn't interfere with what we have always believed about the Force.
  3. bossk621 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 1999
    star 1
    It doesn't bother me at all. Midichlorians have never nor will never be described as the Force, and that is where people get mixed up. They are simply the conduit to which the force is able to flow through people; the straw to the cup so to speak. However, Lucas has to has to has to mention them in the next movie. I mean I hope they were created for a real purpose. I was shocked that they weren't brought up in AOTC.
  4. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I think many people just don't like the idea of a little science in their space fantasy.
    I thought the idea of midiclorians was a little odd but its not such a big deal.
  5. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    Because in the OT the force was completely mystical. You couldn't explain any aspect of it in quantitative terms. And that was cooooool.

    Now we have a midichlorian count, which is related to one's force potential? LAME! Not to mention a total ripoff of the Matrix.
  6. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    The idea of midichlorians is a bad one. Their omission in AOTC is of course no accident. Dont be surprised if theres either the briefest mention or no mention at all in ep. 3.
  7. currentswillshift Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2002
    "Some people, myself not included, feel that Midichlorians cheapen the idea of the Force. They say that your ability to use the Force should hinge on whether or not you are disiplined enough to be trained in the Force, NOT whether you have a certain number of parasites swimming around in your blood.

    However, I believe that midichlorians are not the Force, as anti-midichlorian fans say, but just the link between the physical (living things) and the mystical (the Living Force). If you look at it like that, it really doesn't interfere with what we have always believed about the Force."

    *****************************

    Moron Dude,

    I understand what you mean by those who feel it cheapens the force, although I don't agree with that belief.

    I too think that Midi-Chlorians are only a tool and I would not be surprised if this is explained better in Episode III. I would not be surprised if Qui-Gon was on to something, something that Palpatine has figured out about the FORCE and what the JEDI have not.

    Who knows, the premise of Midi-Chlorians may be found to be only part of the puzzle of the FORCE. Maybe there are those who can increase their FORCE powers by other means, that until now are unknown.

    Either way Midi-Chlorians still remain a tool of the FORCE, and only help explain aspects of it. I don't feel in any way that it cheapens the idea of the FORCE.
  8. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    at best they were unnecessary.
  9. currentswillshift Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2002
    The idea of midichlorians is a bad one. Their omission in AOTC is of course no accident. Dont be surprised if theres either the briefest mention or no mention at all in ep. 3.
    *****************************

    dahveed72,

    Dou you think it could be possible that the JEDI were barking up the wrong tree for a couple of thousand years, and did not realize that there were other aspects of the FORCE that may render Midi-chlorians to be only part of the story.

    Either way, they are still a tool, and their was no need bring it up in Episode II, it didn't matter. It was used to confirm Anakins sensed abilities, and it explained how young Padawan's are singled out at such a young age.

    How else, even in the OT, could they find Padawan's. Obviously little kids, aren't going around levitating things from birth, that would make one say "OH, MY GOD HE IS USING THE FORCE, LET'S LET THE JEDI KNOW.

    The Force is like the kid with the "photographic memory", you either have one or don't, or you're somewhere in between.

    The FORCE can be the same with different degrees.
  10. BIG_BEN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 3
    I am anti-midichlorian, but I realize that they are not the force, they are simply the "conduit". My beef though, is - why do we need a conduit? We don't, except that Lucas felt he had to come up with a way to explain how Qui-Gon could quantify his belief that Anakin was the chosen one. That's the only reason it was there, and that is why we heard nothing of it in episode 2. It had served it's purpose, which I still maintain could've been accomplished without the invention of the midi's. That's my problem with them, that their only purpose was to serve as a convenient explanation of one plot point. Like many conveniences, though, midichlorians create more problems than they solve. I will explain what I mean by that if anyone is curious, but otherwise won't go into it here.
  11. BenK Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 2
    I agree. It takes away the whole magical nature of the Force (e.g. presumably, if a non-Force sensitive person were to get injected with blood from a Jedi, then he will be become Force-sensitive too).

    One begins to wonder too, why Palpy did not create a clone army of Sith instead of "normal" human soldiers. The Sith army could also be genetically made to blindly follow orders the way Stormtroopers are. With Force-strong "Sith troopers" instead of Stormtroopers, man, the Empire will be indestructable!!!
  12. currentswillshift Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2002
    BIG-BEN,

    I think what you say is interesting?
    If you want to post your other thoughts or just want to send me a private message, I'd be willing to listen to it.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    They explain how Jedi are found and trained.

    Why Han couldn't become a Jedi.

    How Anakin is the Chosen One. Which is not a ripoff of the Matrix as Lucas wrote TPM before the Matrix got rolling.

    How Luke can find more Jedi.

    How Anakin is stronger than Yoda in Force potental.

    That is their purpose and why they exist. What purpose would their be to mention them in AOTC? Also, Palpatine doesn't want an army of Force users causing problems for him the first chance they get.
  14. Tycho_Celchu_NRAF Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2002
    Midichlorians are not the Force, but merely a possible indication of force senstitivity. E.g high blood sugar levels may be due to diabetes but you can have a high blood sugar level and not have diabetes. It is more of a test or an indicator, but you do not have to have midichlorains to be force sensitive.

    Tycho Celchu
  15. rsterling78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 5
    I don't have a real problem with midi-chlorians, but what I think bothers some fans is the fact that they were never mentioned in the OT. Not once. Not by Obi-Wan. Not by Yoda. Not in reference to Darth Vader, whose midi-chlorian count was the highest in history.

    Luke being trained in the Force and never hearing about midi-chlorians is like someone being trained to become a doctor and never hearing about antibiotics.

    Still, it didn't ruin TPM.
  16. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    They do not cheapen the force at all. the force itself it a mystical energy field. end of story.

    Midicholorians tell us the will of the force (according to QGJ) they speak to us.
    end of story.

    Also, one thing noone said, Yoda in ESB said
    "the force is strong in your family'
    You have it, your father has it, your sister has it"

    this explains possibly why Luke and Leia are so important , they have the genetic code of the most powerful jedi ever, thus they are the only hope of defeating him.

  17. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    Big_Ben,

    I have absolutely no problem with midi's, BUT I would like to read your theory on the problems they cause.
  18. endboss Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 3
    Jedi being closer to X-Men mutants than mysterious god-like beings is a hokey idea. Funny thing is, if Midichlorians were introduced by an EU book instead of Lucas' prequels, those of you who now praise Midis would point to them as a prime reason why the EU is awful crap that's unfaithful to the galaxy Lucas created.
  19. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I dislike the idea of midiclorians, for several reasons (all of which are, needless to say, simply my opinion).

    First, for years people could use the Force simply "because." Imaginations were left free that way, and, while it may have been an intellectual cop-out to those who wanted to ask "Why?", "Just Because" sufficed. Suspension of disbelief was already in effect, since we are talking about the GFFA.

    Second, it does cheapen the Force. I haven't run into anyone recently who maintains that the midiclorians are the Force - the general idea now seems to be that they serve as some sort of "Force-antennae/Force-joystick" - the means by which one is attenuated to and can use the Force. This, in and of itself, is not what cheapens it.

    The bigger issue for me is that it makes an effort to explain the magic. The example I used in the TPM forum on the matter is that it's like looking into Merlin's physiology to explain how (and *not* why) he can use magic. "Why" was already answered: he is of demonic lineage, and therefore has special powers.

    We have the same type of scenario in Anakin. In literary/mythological terms, we have the hero with the alien conception. Campbell notes that the Hero is always conceived in a manner different than that of the ordinary person, thus distancing the Hero from the populace (Merlin's demonic origins/Anakin's fatherless conception). However, mythology stops at the point where the means of manipulating magical forces is explained. *How* Merlin manipulates magic is not explained in the literature. I'm not a classics scholar, but I am willing to bet that there are few examples in world mythology that offer a "How" with the "Why".

    As such, there really isn't precedent for the midiclorians in classic literature or mythology.

    Beowulf is a Hero with magical origins; therefore he can slay Grendel, Grendel's mother, and the dragon.

    Hercules is a Hero with magical origins; therefore he can perform his trials.

    Merlin is a Hero with magical origins; therefore he can perform feats of magic and sorcery.

    (In the OT) The Jedi were Heroes with magical origins; therefore they can perform feats others cannot.

    Because midiclorians break this pattern, I dislike them. Lucas has repeatedly said that he's been influenced by Campbellian mythology. The problem is that concepts like midiclorians (the "How's" of magic) aren't to be found in there; or elsewhere in mythology.

    I like the mysticism of "Just Because" - the midiclorians prevent us from following this principle. Our imaginations can invent myriad explanations for "How" the Force works, which was, for me, part of the beauty of the OT - I was free to imagine anything not in the movies. With the introduction of the midiclorians, the question shifts from the fecund "How does the Force work?" to "How does the midiclorian concentration in the cells of Force-users relate to or influence the Force?"

    I just like being able to ask the first question more. More information on the mechanics of the Force, in my mind, detracts from the mysticism, and thereby detracts from my enjoyment of that aspect of SW. Yoda's explanation on Dagobah was all I needed to be happy. Now, because GL saw fit to give me more specific information, I can't get back to that.

    I want to see what (if any) role they will have in Ep. III. If they are not mentioned, I will simply ignore the TPM explanation, and return to the mysticism of the OT.
  20. Tricky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    I've got a problem with the midichlorians. Ever since I first saw SW, I've been wanting Lucas to give some kinda explanation of how the force works. Obi-1 explained it some, so did Yoda, and now Lucas is explaining it more with these midichlorians. But it's not enough. I don't know the difference btw darkside & lightside powers, how the Sith are able to cloud the Jedi's ability to use the force, or how did Count Dooku shoot force lightning from his hands & how did Yoda absorb it?

    Lucas is messing with me, he's keeping the force mysterious, but he keeps giving me hints that he'll explain everything by ep3. It's his universe, he better hurry up & explain everything about the force, before some EU authors does a bad job of it.
  21. emperorvader666 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    LISTEN TYCHO CELCHU I AGREE THAT THEY ARE NOT THE FORCE HOWEVER ,YOU DO NEED THEM TO BE FORCE SENSITIVE.WHEN QUI GON EXPLAINED TO ANAKIN WHAT THEY WERE HE TOLD HIM THAT THE FORCE USES THE MIDI CHLORIANS TO PENETRATE OUR BODIES,THEREFORE YOU WOULD NEED A CERTAIN NUMBER OF MIDI CLORIANS TO EVEN BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY THE COUNCIL.
  22. smauldookie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 5
    "Jedi being closer to X-Men mutants than mysterious god-like beings is a hokey idea. Funny thing is, if Midichlorians were introduced by an EU book instead of Lucas' prequels, those of you who now praise Midis would point to them as a prime reason why the EU is awful crap that's unfaithful to the galaxy Lucas created."




    You are soooo right. :)
  23. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    in response to the post relating to "heros being born with magical powers"

    well, you see this is diffrent. in those cases, there is one and only one with powers, in SW universe there are thousands of jedi with these powers, some more powerful then others.

  24. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I don't buy that. Saying that because there are 1000s of Jedi, we need an explanation is ducking the question. Greek myth and legend is replete with heroes with divine origins, and never once goes into how. The Arthurian legends have many characters with divine or mystical/magical origins. Babylonian, Ancient Egyptian, Norse and Hindu theology have multiple gods and/or heroes (or instantiations of Atman) that have magical origins.

    Societies and myths can have more than one hero with divine gifts. They still leave the question at "Why?" and not "How?"

    EDIT:

    Oh, and let's not forget the multiple gods and heroes in Japanese mythology. And that in all of the above examples there were greater and lesser heroes/gods. And that even though there were 1000s of Jedi, they are still a minute fraction of the total populace of the Republic (the macrocosmic equivalent of the hero/populace microcosm).
  25. ChancellorGoauld Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2002
    star 4
    The reason for midichlorians is because a lot of 40 year old nerds wanted Lucas to make Jedi a real religion. The PT tries to take attention off the Jedi being a religion, and being more of a police squad. Lucas created the midichlorians as a way of saying "sorry geeks - you don't have midichlorians - so stop walking around in brown robes and talking like Yoda".
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