Why do some STAR WARS fans still have a problem with the premise of Midi-Chlorians ??? (AN OPINION.)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by currentswillshift, Jul 24, 2002.

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  1. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    If Episode 1 and 2 didn't meet your expectations then Episode 3 won't. [face_plain]

  2. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    Durwood, I don't care what anyone else said, but IMHO, your statement about what Leia said is actually a good insight for this arguement.

    Now, I am going to say something here which I tried to start a post on, but I will just throw it here.
    this does not mean george is a g-d or anything, but in terms of the prequel trilogy, he can do no wrong, and here is why. It is HIS universe, his creation, he can do whatever the heck he wants with it, weather anyone else likes it or not. it is irrelevant what anyone else says he should do. NOw, would anyone ever say that g-d of our own universe is ever wrong, no, becuase he is the "Creator, his universe, his story" Thus since George LUcas crated a univrse,a story and a saga called starwars, he is thus sort of like being the g-d of that saga. So stop whining about midicholoirans and how the PT is not your own vision or that he raped your childhood or that he is greedy or whatever.
    If anybody here believes they can make a better movie than Lucas, go prove it and make your own movie, and do not cry about the fact that you have no money to get it started and that GL has millions of dollars to do it with, he started with the same amount of money as anyone else here has, he just had the dirve and motivation to do whatever it took to get a start, and then finally make his vision a reality.

    So any argumnts henceforth that have those tones, will forever be known as useless arguemnts.

  3. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    OK everybody, my challenge to you is to take one day and respond to all posts critical of AOTC or Lucas without using ad hominem attacks. Can you do it?
  4. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I would like to inform the committee that for the past four years, I, TokyoXtreme, have been an active basher of George Lucas and the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy (PT). I sincerely apologize for my anti-Lucasian activities, and deeply regret any anti-Lucasian sentiments I may have caused. To compensate for my actions, I have prepared the following list of known bashers:


    DrEvazan

    endboss

    dahveed72

    Quixotic-Sith



    Again, I would like to repeat my apologies for any ill will that I may have directly or indirectly influenced on the part of Mr. Lucas or the films Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace and Star Wars: Episode II: Attack of the Clones. I beg for the mercy of this court, and I affirm that I will never again be responsible for contributing "basher statements" to this forum. Thank you for your time.

  5. endboss Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 3
    You're a dead man, Tokyo! No Witness Protection Program on Earth will save you! No one rats on EndBoss Soprano and lives! You hear me, rat?! You're a dead man!!!
  6. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
  7. Stitch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 1
    Uhm... don't you people think you are taking this basher/gusher thing a bit too far? If you didn't like the movie, fine, don't really care- but don't come on here every 5 minutes and try to ruin everything. I'm not saying "if you didn't like Episode II then you shouldn't post" no, no no. That wouldnn't be right. However, I do wish that you bashers wouldn't come on here and spoil our fun every minute of every day.
  8. endboss Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 3
    I must be your dream come true, Stitch, because I don't post too often at all. Check my profile. And when I do post, I usually stick to only one or two threads at a time, so I'm not pissing in everyone's Wheaties all over the place. It's nice to know I'm everything you seem to be asking for in a 'basher.'
  9. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Tokyo, Don Binary is very concerned about your disrespect for omerta...

    I understand that you just bought a beautiful horse...

    ;)

    The ironic thing is that people complain about the TPM forum, which is tame in comparison to the types of personal attacks, armchair psychology, and disrespect that go on in this forum. It seems that we will need a few years for this place to settle down and become civil again. Such a pity.

    Discussion invites disagreement, debate necessarily presumes that there are conflicting opinions. Debate and discussion are fundamental to and an explicit part of these forums - monopolization of the boards by either "side" of the fanbase (if we are to use these artificial distinctions) would lead to intellectual stagnation.

    "I think Lucas is brilliant!"
    "You're wrong! He's a genious!"
    "Your both wrong! He's [insert random sycophantic comment here]!"


    is no more interesting a conversation than

    "Lucas is a moron!"
    "Yeah, he couldn't write is way out of a Dick and Jane book!"
    "I could sneeze out better aliens than what he gives us."


    The problem with these forums is not that "bashers try to ruin everyone's fun" anymore than "gushers are blind to Lucas' faults." These are sweeping generalizations that do more harm than good. Where is the fun of coming to a bulletin board to be insulted? Sweeping generalizations about those with whom you disagree simply add to the conflict, perpetuating that conflict which we would wish to end. Complaining about bashing begets bashers; complaining about gushing begets gushers.

    What is most ironic is that "fandom" is a subjective notion - we all tend to think that our opinions are moderate and rational; therefore when we see something with which we disagree, we all make the assumption that the other is wrong, ill-informed, misconceived, etc.

    Accusations of "basherdom" and "gusherdom" are also subjective. I liked about 40% of TPM, and about 60% of AOTC. If the pattern holds true, I should like about 80% of Ep. III (which would put it on par, for me, with ROTJ). Because I like a little over or a little under half of the movies in question, I am seen as a gusher by some and a basher by others. How can I be both? There are many more like me - no one I have encountered "hates" every aspect of every scene, just as no one I have encountered loves every aspect of every scene.

    I'm told that because I dislike aspects of the films, I don't have to watch them, or I should just go away. However, I also *like* aspects of the films, does it therefore follow that I have no business here? I am told that I should not focus on the negative - that's intellectually dishonest. If part of the movie didn't work for me, there is nothing wrong with my answering the question "why?" - the very premise of this thread is confusion about *why* an aspect of TPM didn't work for some fans. Lucas has my money, therefore he gets my praise for what worked for me and my criticism for what didn't. Without honesty - acknowledging the good and the bad - about these films, we get the same stagnating conversations as indicated above.
  10. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Well I have to say I was thinking about this last night.
    I mean what has made some of this fanbase into such highly critical and seemingly selfish people?
    I thought the point of being a fan of this thing was to enjoy it and overlook its faults no matter what they are. Some of you have redefined it in a way which makes me sad.
    Whatever happened to just being entertained? What about Suspension of disbelief?
    I could say you've grown up 25 years and you have changed enough that Star Wars no longer entertains you, or the new Star Wars films don't.
    That for me is the key. When did we all become ignorant film critics? Believe me thats what we are if we continually criticise GL and his universe.
    But it is clear that for some the idea of Star Wars not entertaining them any longer, is false and that they live in denial "hoping" the next one will be better but i have news for you it wont be better, at least for you. Seriously maybe same of you should walk away or even just stick to the OT forumor other aspects of Star Wars. Keep hold of the OT or whatever because the PT wont entertain you as the OT did. That is a sad fact.



  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Prequel is something that comes before. Hence it's kinda moot to cover Anakin's identity. Everyone and their mother knows Anakin is Vader. It's like Superman is Clark Kent, Batman is Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker is Spider-Man. Everyone knows it, without having seen anything. It's pop culture. Look at how many jokes have been made about "I am your father." You can't cover that up and Lucas has no reason to. The man said that the whole point was to watch the saga in chronological order. Kinda pointless to number it, if that wasn't the ultimate goal. So far, for me, nothing has been ruined.

    Also the story is Anakin's rise and fall from grace. We see the events of his life and what turns him into Darth Vader. Then we see Luke follow the same pattern as his father. Only he doesn't turn, where his father did. This leads to Vader becoming Anakin again. Parallels. Interesting concept, ins't it?
  12. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Well I have to say I was thinking about this last night.
    I mean what has made some of this fanbase into such highly critical and seemingly selfish people?
    I thought the point of being a fan of this thing was to enjoy it and overlook its faults no matter what they are. Some of you have redefined it in a way which makes me sad.
    Whatever happened to just being entertained? What about Suspension of disbelief?
    I could say you've grown up 25 years and you have changed enough that Star Wars no longer entertains you, or the new Star Wars films don't.
    That for me is the key. When did we all become ignorant film critics? Believe me thats what we are if we continually criticise GL and his universe.
    But it is clear that for some the idea of Star Wars not entertaining them any longer, is false and that they live in denial "hoping" the next one will be better but i have news for you it wont be better, at least for you. Seriously maybe same of you should walk away or even just stick to the OT forumor other aspects of Star Wars. Keep hold of the OT or whatever because the PT wont entertain you as the OT did. That is a sad fact.


    And this is *exactly* the kind of post I'm talking about. Terrious, I couldn't have asked for a better example - my sincerest thanks.

    First, it assumes that a section of the fanbase is "highly critical" and "selfish" - an interesting characterization of a viewpoint with which he disagrees. How is this kind of post making these fora a better place?

    Second, the post assumes that being a fan necessarily means overlooking flaws. My understanding of fan is someone who is devoted to a particular thing (movie, team, piece of art, etc.) and wants it to be as good as it can be. This type of fan tries to strenghen weaknesses and correct mistakes - like the fans of sports teams who disagree about particular trades and/or policy decisions. I love the Pittsburgh Steelers, and I was very disappointed when they cut Greg Lloyd a few years ago. I was very concerned about the effect of this decision would have on the defensive line. Does it therefore stand to reason that I am not a fan of the Steelers, because I disagreed with a decision made? I don't think so, and I think this is analogous to fans of SW who express disappointment.

    Third, the post assumes that I am no longer entertained by SW films, or that I no longer suspend my disbelief. Both are highly inaccurate assumptions. There are only parts of the films that I don't find entertaining; in fact, in my post above I indicate that I found more than half of the film very entertaining. By definition, therefore, Terrious assumption about me, and therefore his assumption about those like me, is inaccurate. Regarding suspension of disbelief, I'm not one of those people who critiques sound in space, bad physics, etc. I do try to let myself get caught up in GL's world. Often it works, sometimes it doesn't. Again, by virtue of the fact that I *do* suspend my disbelief, Terrious's assumption about me, and therefore about those like me, is incorrect.

    Fourth, he assumes that the new films simply will not entertain me. That flies in the face of most of the other posts I have written about the film, as well as being simply a fiated assumption based on the few posts of mine that he has read. He is functionally making baseless accusations about me, my SW experience, and my ability to enjoy these films. He makes the mistake - common on these boards - that disliking an element of the film constitutes disliking the entirety.

    Last, he assumes that it is a "sad fact" that the films are no longer for us. I find it fascinating that anyone would fiat "facts" based on a handful of posts on an internet bulletin board. That's bad psychology. I don't know him well enough to make any judgments about his enjoyments, his outlook on the SW saga, etc. based on the few posts of his I have read, but he feels no compunctions about making them about me. Further, he notes that he makes these assessments based on his reflections the night before - again,
  13. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Well I wont say what I think next time.

    Thats what I truely believe, maybe a litle naive and ignorant but it appears very obvious with some people. Not necessarily with yourself but with others.

    Anyway until this back on topic I wont bother.
  14. Stitch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 1
    It's okay to post what you think.

    And endboss- I'm not enemies with you "bashers." I didn't even pick you out in my post. I don't hate or even dislike any of you. It's your own opinions, and if you don't like Episode I and II, then that's just your preference. In fact, I pretty much like everyone here. If you DO like Star Wars in general, hell man, you are a FRIEND in my book. Even DrEvazan is my "buddy."
    ;)

    However, I do fail to see how the prequels are just so much worse than 4-6 because in reality they are not.
  15. endboss Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 3
    <<<However, I do fail to see how the prequels are just so much worse than 4-6 because in reality they are not.>>>

    In reality, they are. ;)
  16. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
  17. Stitch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 1
  18. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "It's okay to post what you think."

    Only under certain circumstances, aparrently. This thread has degenerated from a thoughtful and intelligent discussion to an openly hostile attack on those "bashers" who have the temerity to HONESTLY ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT THIS THREAD ASKS. If some of you don't like hearing these criticisms, then the title of the thread should have been a warning for you to steer clear. But perhaps it's more rewarding to hijack a perfectly good thread and use it bludgeon people repeatedly with the same tired nonsense that has been spewing forth from these fora for years. I mean, at least get some new material, guys.

    As it stands, this thread has become a prime example of why this "known basher" rarely sets foot in this zoo you call the AOTC Forum. I spend most of my time in the civilized areas.
  19. Stitch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 1
    I'll admit I have attacked bashers before. Then I realized it was wrong of me. It's all just an opinion. I've sort of changed in that respect and I do apologize for outlashes I have conjured up in the past.

    However I do think that those of us who do like the movie... we should be able to talk about the film without being smothered by bashers.
  20. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Oh, yes. Heaven forbid that you be "smothered" by people who don't agree with every opinion you have on something so earth-shattering as a movie. With that comes the danger of discussion. We wouldn't want that.

    If it's that objectionable to you then perhaps you should avoid threads (like this one) that invite people to voice criticism.
  21. Stitch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 1
    Well you don't have to be a smart aleck.
  22. uralllosers Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    I think everyone here has in common that most of the world thinks they are total losers for wasting time sitting at their computer talking about 10 hours of film as if it were a religious tome. That in itself should unite everyone.

    ALL HAIL THE LOSERS!
  23. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Yeah... bunch of nerds writing thousand word badly typed essays...


    Anyway...


    Here's a thought that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread yet.

    If Palpatine was from Naboo (ie. born in the Republic, where according to Qui Gon, kids with high midichlorian counts are detected early) then how come he wasn't trained by the Jedi? We know he can shoot lightning from his fingertips, and Vader's demeanour ("I must obey my master" etc.) implies that he's more powerful than "off the scale" Skywalker...

    Either;
    a) He was born in secret and escaped testing (highly unlikely, I think, given his position in the Senate...) or
    b) Midichlorians aren't as essential to potential or ability to become a powerful Jedi/Sith as some people seem to be concluding from the limited evidence presented.

    Maybe midichlorians show how strong the Force (as an energy field) is with someone- but have nothing to do with how powerful they are/can become at manipulating it? All TPM tells us about them is that they "speak to us, telling us the will of the Force"- why would someone like Palpatine care what the Will of the Force is?!



    Jen X
    >>>Well, I see it as Jedi still communicating with the Force directly.
    >>>But, according to QGJ, they don't. I mean, here is what he said about Jedi, midi's and the force:

    "Midi-chlorians are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force...our midi-chlorians continually speak to us, Annie, telling us the will of the Force"

    So you see, it's the force that speaks to the midi's, who then speak to us. As Durwood's lengthy post underlines, midi's are seperate lifeforms. So the Jedi aren't communicating directly with the force.


    Well, the quote you provided wasn't strictly accurate- Qui Gon does say that midichlorians "speak to us, telling us the Will of the Force", but he doesn't say that they communicate with the Force, that the Force speaks to them, or anything along the lines of "us" speaking back to them. So it still seems to me that Jedi communicate directly with the Force.

    An analogy that I've seen a few times is of a telephone- if a telephones "speaking to you", does that make the telephone an integral part of the conversation, or would you still say that you're speaking to the person at the other end of the line? And as the midichlorians obviously don't have mouths or brains if they're smaller than a cell, how can they "constantly speak to us", if not through the Force, which as living things they "create" and "make it grow"?

    >>>So, in this sense, we can view the Midichlorians as being akin to the demons blood, flowing through the veins of the Jedi. However, because we don't know anything about them, they have to be explained.

    Why? They're alive, so they generate the Force- that's all you need to know (IMHO). If you are interested in real-world biology, they're just another word for mitochondria (if you don't, then you don't need to know it, any more than you need to know about field theory when the guy mentions the magnetic field of the Death Star in ANH.) What else is necessary?

    Quixotic-Sith

    >>>"Without a relatively high (or greater than normal) midiclorian count, the would-be Jedi won't do well on Mace's clairvoyance test, won't be accepted into the Jedi order, and therefore won't become a Jedi at all."

    Maybe... but in my interpretation, it would be more like a case that without a high midichlorian count, the would-be Jedi wouldn't even be taken to Coruscant to sit Mace's clairvoyance test and get a chance to prove themselves. But the gist is the same- I think midichlorians are more to do with how Jedi are tested than how powerful they are or can become.

    >>>>The standards were set by establishing the hero along the lines discussed above; the Greeks, Japanese, Hindus, etc. all simply accepted that Heroes were something other than themselves - there is no significant literary corpus devoted to the physiological explanation of how Heroes did what they did.
  24. BIG_BEN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 3
    That is an interesting point. Why would someone like Palpatine care about the will of the force? Perhaps it is as you say, and it really doesn't have much to do with midichlorians. Perhaps his midichlorians do tell him the will of the force, but he simply ignores it in favor of his own will. It's kind of hard to say, really. Interesting thoughts.
  25. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    SomeRandomNerd, very very good points. You certainly said it better than I could ever do.

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