Why do some STAR WARS fans still have a problem with the premise of Midi-Chlorians ??? (AN OPINION.)

and I think anything "magical" is a dumb idea. Things need to be explained logically. To tell you the truth I probably wouldn't be a star wars fan if I believed the force was 'mystical' or whatever. To me it is as scientific in nature as EVERYTHING in the universe.

 

Oh ok, I see what you say. But I still do not in any way view the midichlorians as cheapening the force. here is why

The force itself is still a mystical energy field, it surrounds us, and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together. this has not changed one bit.

I am also guessing midichlorians can not be cloned. That is why they did not use any jedi for the cloning.


The force you can feel, it is between you, me the rock, this has not changed.
I actaully think midichloirans enhnace the force,
They are symtiots with us, they continually speak to us, they are in all living things.
This means that every single person in the star Wars Universe has midichlorians, some have more than others.
the people with higher counts tend to be more in tune with the force and better at having jedi powers, but this is not neccisarily a direct cause and effect, it is a tendency, and I can tell you are very intelligent and so I dont need to explain that to you, but that is a counterpoint in my own opinion. dont worry, I value your opinion, it has a lot of great merit.

This is just "My point of view" that dictates the truths I believe in according to a certain wise jedi master in some SW movie . LOL

 

and I think anything "magical" is a dumb idea. Things need to be explained logically. To tell you the truth I probably wouldn't be a star wars fan if I believed the force was 'mystical' or whatever. To me it is as scientific in nature as EVERYTHING in the universe.

Then we will disagree on the matter, although I do think your prior explanation of the inclusion of the midiclorians is more plausible than any literary/mythological explanation.

Unfortunately, classic literature and mythology tends not to be explained "logically" - either in the sense of explanation by natural forces (which can get into a Kuhnian anti-realism argument), or in terms of formal, syllogistic logic. Even in the world of science, there is still an element of the mystical. Physics, for example, has matter in two states of being simultaneously - they had to coin the term "wavicle" for light because they couldn't explain its properties.

We are getting a bit afield of ourselves, however. The GFFA is not built on scientific/logical principles. Sound in space? Plenty of oxygen in exposed environments in Cloud City? No explanation of hyperdrives, yet constant use of them? Controlled movement of a spherical object in space with no visible means of propulsion?

Science can't explain everything (or at least hasn't yet) - that's why there are paradigm shifts. The geocentric model gave way to the heliocentric. The Copernican revolution gave way to Newtonian physics, which in turn gave way to the theories of Einstein and contemporary physicists. I think you might be asking for too much in terms of "logical" explanations.

Besides, Lucas has described the films as fantasy, not sci-fi. We get technobabble in sci-fi, not fantasy.

EDIT:

yoda900- we will likely have to agree to disagree on the matter. I do appreciate your feedback, however.

Like I said, I'm curious to see what GL wants to do with them. We still have an entire movie to go - it's entirely possible that he could have set them up as a red herring in the first film. It wouldn't be the first twist Lucas has given us.

 

Why are some people born smart with huge IQ??
Why are some born retarded??
Why are some people born with gifts and others not??

Is it in there blood or genes??

Some characters in STARWARS are born with high midichlorians and some are not. Why? Who knows.

 

"Jedi being closer to X-Men mutants than mysterious god-like beings is a hokey idea. Funny thing is, if Midichlorians were introduced by an EU book instead of Lucas' prequels, those of you who now praise Midis would point to them as a prime reason why the EU is awful crap that's unfaithful to the galaxy Lucas created. "

That is soooooo true. LOL

I have no trouble with Midis except that GL just dropped the idea and never used it again. Ah well,. Not much he could've done with the idea. Maybe it should've never been introduced,but still I have no problem with it.

 

Midi-chlorians might still play a part in Episode III, be plot related or as said above, just be a smokescreen.

Though even as midi-chlorians appear to answer some mystical questions about the Force, I think they raise even more questions.
Who does a person have more midi-chlorians than another? How does training as a Jedi influence this? And many more ...

 

It's like MJ in basketball. He didn't just become the greatest basketball player overtime (even though he was born with the talent), he had to practise hard every single day to become that. Complete dedication on his part.

Same thing with jedis. Even though some are born with high midi counts doesn't mean they are automatical powerfull. they have to work at it and dedicate their ass off in training. Isn't that why Yoda is the Master.

 

Midichlorians are a HUGE plot device plain and simple. Anakin is too old to be trained but his Midichlorian count is astronomical, so as nearly direct result, Qui Gon wants to see him trained and immediately believes him to be the chosen one. Without that incredibly high count, there is a good chance the boy would have been left behind.

Do the midichlorians have to be brought up in any of the other episode in order to be important? I don't think so.

Touche on the "if it was EU" theory.. But then again, you could say that for just about everything in the Star Wars films if they had come out in EU form. I imagine that if the Luke and Vader are father/son thing had been in EU, it would have been a laughing stock.

 

HAHAHAHA

*claps*

"Midichlorians are a HUGE plot device plain and simple. Anakin is too old to be trained but his Midichlorian count is astronomical, so as nearly direct result, Qui Gon wants to see him trained and immediately believes him to be the chosen one. Without that incredibly high count, there is a good chance the boy would have been left behind. "

Eh. I dunno. What if the Force was so strong in him that he caused a minor disurbance in rhe Force? Wouldn't that have served the purpose that he midi's serve? I'm sure it could be done some other way.

 

<<<Touche on the "if it was EU" theory.. But then again, you could say that for just about everything in the Star Wars films if they had come out in EU form. I imagine that if the Luke and Vader are father/son thing had been in EU, it would have been a laughing stock.>>>

It wouldn't have been laughable to me. Not at all. But around here, it probably would've. That's sort of my point. The unfortunate attitude around here seems to be "If it doesn't come from Lucas, it sucks. If it does come from Lucas, it rules!" Personally, I know a bad idea when I see one, and I think most of you know that Midichlorians suck deep down. But since it comes from Lucas, admitting such a thing isn't an option for some of you, so you convince yourselves it's a brilliant addition to the series. Shame.

 

Midis help to explain why the force was strong in the Skywalker family. Luke and Leia automatically recieve Force potential beacuse it is passed down from their father. We knew the Force was hereditary so, deep down, we knew their must be a biological element that can tap into this 'mystical energy field'.

As for Palpy (not) cloning midis; even if they could be cloned, isn't one of his objectives to get rid of the galaxy's Force users?!

Midis do not change anything IMHO.

 

Sometimes, when we learn more about a character or a "world" that we have enjoyed based on limited info, we find ourselves dissatisfied...and it can be a strange experience, because it makes you realize that you have "unconsciously" (in some cases!) sketched in more back story than you thought you had...

I am basically pretty happy with the portrayal of the Jedi in TPM and AOTC...they are actually a bit "weirder" (in a a good way!) than I had thought they would be. I like their Stoicism, their formidable abilities, etc.... BUT...

... the midichlorians DID disappoint me. I think I felt disappointed because, in the back of my mind, I thought that the Force was equally accessible to ANYONE, limited only by their willingness to "submit" to it, to be philosophically in tune with it, to study and meditate and perhaps sacrifice. When I saw CROUCHING TIGER, I immediately thought of the Jedi - and again, while the various warrior/monks of Tiger show very different levels of skill and enlightenment, they do so not because of some physiological trait in their blood, but because of their minds, hearts, and will (granted, body does play a part too, in the TIGER world!). To me, having the Midis play SUCH a part in Force potential reduced the Jedi's ability to tap into the Force into a mere accident of birth.

You can certainly make a counter case, I recognize. But I think that by making Force potential related to a quanitifiable physical characteristic, GL makes the Jedi and Sith seem less spiritual, and thus, less 'special'.

My two cents!

Shadow

 

To me, the midi theory is like the world presented in Gattica. GL has Padme explain how their is no slavery in the republic, but based on a blood test your snatched from your parents in infancy and trained as the republics strong arm. What about someone who just loved the Jedi world so much they wanted to be a part of it.

We know it isn't just accessible to anyone, even in the OT. When Vader says "The force is strong with this one" Luke had very little knowledge of the force, yet it brilliantly illuminated around him for other force users to see.

As far as having things explained scientificly, c'mon, there is a lot more unexplained science than just the force in those movies. For instance, how do you explode a sphere with a 500 mile radius in low orbit over a planet and not have global reprocusion. I'm sure your all familiar with the hollocust on Endor theory. Or how a humanoid can punch through the air at 400 miles per hour in an open cockpit pod and not have his little head ripped off. It isn't that I didn't enjoy the scenes, I just try not to over analyze the science.

 

"The Force is an energy field created by ALL living things."
"Life creates it... makes it grow..."
"Midichlorians are microscopic life forms that live inside our cells."

1) Jedi had to be trained early, because of the nature of the power it bestows upon the student- they had to be trained to be able to handle it (also, this emphasises the "last hope" that Luke was, and how desperate the situation was that he was trained at such an age.)

2) Potential trainees needed to NOT be able to use the Force before they were trained, but still have an innate quality to make them potential trainees. (Otherwise Luke being trained would make no sense.)

3) They also serve as plot devices, both to make Anakin something special, to get ALL potential Jedi- even very very young ones- into the Temple, so that they can be easily wiped out in Episode III.

4) They also provide a nice link- from Anakin being governed by millions of midichlorians in his body to replacing them with a single machine, as the GFFA goes from democracy to dictatorship.

5) If anyone could be trained as a Jedi, then why was Luke the last hope?

>>>The bigger issue for me is that it makes an effort to explain the magic. The example I used in the TPM forum on the matter is that it's like looking into Merlin's physiology to explain how (and *not* why) he can use magic. "Why" was already answered: he is of demonic lineage, and therefore has special powers.


Surely midichlorians are the "why", rather than the "how"?

 

I hate the mids, but most of the mid gushers are compleatly right, they do nothing to cheapen the force or make it more scientific. So why do I hate the,? Two reasons. Well, dahveed72 said that they were not necessary. In a way, he is wrong (we needed some reason to go 'wow' at Anakin in TPM), but aside from that he is right. They were a plot device that I sort of see as a cop out.

The other big reason is because it cheapens the JEDI!!! The force is still as mysterious as ever, but the jedi are now some odd ball super men with messed up blood, instead of mystical old men with great power.

It also says that there is a limit per jedi to how strong they can ever be. It is not like "your effort will make you as strong as you can be" instead it is "once you get to level 5 you cant go any higher."

And they could have been put into AOTC without much of a problem. Some people have asked why not clone jedi? It could have been mentioned that they are impossible to clone due to the mids not wanting to clone with the body or something. The cloners could have said that they tried to enhance the clones with mids, but they did not. Use your imagnations people and think! They could have been put in. Thank god they were not. (I was afraid that it would be like a 50's sci-fi/horror movie and they would be super clones!)

Some people are saying how "it explains how father, I and sister have it..." What? Didnt you understand it before? Did it need to be clearafied?

Hmm, ChancellorGoauld: The reason for midichlorians is because a lot of 40 year old nerds wanted Lucas to make Jedi a real religion. The PT tries to take attention off the Jedi being a religion, and being more of a police squad. Lucas created the midichlorians as a way of saying "sorry geeks - you don't have midichlorians - so stop walking around in brown robes and talking like Yoda".

....but still...

 

In my opinion midi-chlorians will never be mentioned again. It was clearly a form of showing everyone that little Anakin had the potential to be tne Chosen One.

Did you guys pay attention when OB1 is analysing the blood sample on the computer screen? There is a semi-sphere, and then when the reading kicks in, Anakins semi-sphere grows much greater that that first one.

"The readings are off the chart."

That was a way of telling everyone: This kid is special, there is no way to deny it. We have scientific proof.

 

I readily admit, I am a bit inconsistent... in that I clearly had no problems with accepting that some folks had a more powerful "innate" connection with the Force (Luke, for example, who had that connection despite - in ANH - having had minimal training!). This might seem to fly in the face of my comments about feeling that the Force should be more mystical, something that ANYONE could tap into if they were willing to study, meditate, etc.

BUT... I still think that when you make the Force tie-in dependent on a physcially measurable, tangible THING.... you do "cheapen" it in a sense... and you raise a LOT of practical questions (many of which are touched on here, re cloning, midichlorian injections, etc).

It is an interesting question... and again I confess, my reactions are very much subjective. For example, in LOTR, I was not troubled by the notion that Gandalf was a powerful wizard while, say, Bilbo was NOT... and the "whys" were not explained. COULD Bilbo have been a powerful wizard if he had studied, or did it require "Wizard's blood", or...? The issue did not come up, explicitly (that I recall) and I wasn't troubled by that. Similarly, until GL introduced the midis, I wasn't troubled by some being "Force adept" and some NOT being so adept...but once you say that access to the Force is tied into something you can quantify, measure with scientific instruments, maybe see under an electron microscope, inject/ingest, etc...well...

Shadow

 

I agree with your opinion. I don´t know if you believe in things like this or not. But there are people in this world that are born with a sixth sense more accurate that others.

And normally those people end up working with their mediunic abilities. Some help others, some prefer to con other.

Much like the Jedi.

 

Well first off I like EU and other far out concepts like the Midi count (However Greedo shooting first is just a flat out SIN). The Midi count shouldn't really bother anyone because it's such a small part of what the force actualy is. The Force is more then parasitic relationship with a host. It doesn't take away or taint what Yoda says about the force in Empire. Now, if the entire prequel Trilogy was forcing the Midi's down our throat then I would have a problem with it as it had no bearing with the Original Trilogy.

 

Agree. Midi Chlorians only "speak" with the Jedi about the force. The concept of the Force remains as it was. Mistical an spiritual.

 

W-e-l-l.... (in a curmudgeonly, pain in the butt tone... )...

... the "problem" is giving this mystical Force a tangible, concrete, measurable, scientific link. Imagine, if you will, if certain people could "hear the voice of God", but only if they had a certain gene. Or if there was some blood test and if you had enough of "X" in your blood stream, you could tap into the "will of the Universe", but if you didn't, sorry...

Now, I realize "the Force" is not the same as "God", and I don't want us to get sidetracked into a lengthy discussion of GL's mystical/religious influences... just suggesting that when you link a "mystical energy field" with something from Biology 101 (personally, I can't hear "midichlorian" without thinking of "mitochondrian" from high school biology - and I suspect that is intentional. Believe mitochondrians are small structures in the cells of all living things (?) that help us process energy [nothing cosmic, I mean biochemical energy], and there is or was some speculation that they actually developed as separate organisms, and at some point were then taken into cells, and that they are almost symbiotes... all of which is VERY much akin to the midichlorian concept, as I understand it!), you really DO put "the Force" on a very different level. At least for me...



Shadow

 

I agree with Morondude completely. I think some people haven't listened to what Qui-Gonn said in Episode 1! A lot of fans seem to think he said that midichlorians are the force and that the force is all technical and no spirituality etc etc. That is absolute rubbish. He didn't say that at all.
What he did say was that the midichlorians (that reside inside our cells) are in tune with the force and are the persons link to the force. Thus if a person quiets their mind and has enough/sufficient midichlorians and learns how to listen to them then the will of the force will become apparent.
Imagine Luke hangin upside down from the weather vain in Bespin. Yoda had taught him to quiet his mind (clear your mind... no more questions do you need etc). Luke didn't need to know exactly what he was listening to. He might have been totally confused with the whole concept (like a lot of fans). He had a crash course on the force. All Yoda had time to do was make him believe in it and then try to get some sort of link/control. He did a fantastic job too!!!Making it a spiritual thing for Luke worked as he didn't have to get swamped in all the nitty gritty that he would have learned from age 3.
Thus midichlorians aren't a disaster and everyone should just loosen up and listen to the message behind what is said more! Instead of panicking because something seems different from the OT.

 

Ok, guys. Sorry I wasn't able to get back to this earlier, but some of you wanted to hear what I thought about midi's causing more problems than they solve. Here we go. I am going to use statements made earlier in this thread by Darth_sinister, not as a personal attack on him or his ideas, but because the things he mentions are typical of those mentioned by those who support, defend, or are otherwise not bothered by midichlorians.

How jedi are found and trained:
Alright, this one is fairly easy. In ANH, when Vader is trying to blast Luke out of space, he says: "the force is strong in this one." This would indicate to me that there is a way to detect force strength or potential without the midi's as a measuring device.

Why Han couldn't become a jedi:
I fail to see how this type of thing supports midichlorians. According to lines in the movie (TPM), midi's reside in all living cells. Without them, life couldn't exist, and "we would have no knowledge of the force". OK, if that's true, then why couldn't Han have become a jedi? If midi's exist in all living cells, then logically, everyone living has midichlorians and therefore has the potential to use the force or be trained as a jedi (presumably provided that they have enough of them, to be fair) but if force potential is measured by numbers of midichlorians, and they all have them, then every living being should theoretically have some force potential, yet it is clear that not everyone does.

How Anakin is the chosen one:
This one goes back to my first point about how Vader was able to sense Luke's Force strength without a quantifiable measure. Couldn't Qui-Gon have done the same with Anakin? Couldn't he simply have sensed, as Vader did, the sheer force strength? Qui-Gon had been in the presence of Yoda, and would have been able to sense his "Force strength" the same way Vader did Luke's, and then would have been able to sense that Anakins "Force strength" was even higher.

How Luke can find and train more jedi:
Well, that's EU and shouldn't really be considered here, but the argument against necessitating midi's for this purpose is really no different than the arguments above.

Continuity/ Logic issues.
This one is the big dog in my opinion. Someone else mentioned here that midi's create a continuity issue in that they're never mentioned in the OT. That, I will allow, is a fairly minor issue, but an issue nonetheless. What I feel is a bigger problem though is the whole issue of Darth Vader. Anakin/ Vader is supposed to be the most powerful Force user ever (discovered via midichlorian count). When he becomes the creature that we know as Darth Vader, he is "more machine than man". If midi's are the indicator of Force strength, then wouldn't having less of them mean having less power? If they reside in all of your living cells, then shouldn't it weaken you in the force when you have fewer living cells? Presumably when Anakin fully becomes Vader, he has lost probably about 51% or more of his biological body (more machine than man). Logically, this would mean that he's lost at least 51% of his midichlorians as well, since they only reside in living cells. Yet Darth Vader remains the most powerful "Jedi" even after his transformation. Logically inconsistent? You bet it is, unless force power and potential has nothing to do with things residing in all your living cells.

That is why I feel that midis create more problems than they "solve".

 

>>>The other big reason is because it cheapens the JEDI!!! The force is still as mysterious as ever, but the jedi are now some odd ball super men with messed up blood, instead of mystical old men with great power.

1) Midichlorians aren't in the blood- they're in ALL cells of ALL life forms.
2) They're still "mystical men with great power."
3) Are athletes with lots of mitochondria "odd balls with messed up blood"?

>>>>It also says that there is a limit per jedi to how strong they can ever be.

Based on what, exactly?

>>>>It could have been mentioned that they are impossible to clone due to the mids not wanting to clone with the body or something. The cloners could have said that they tried to enhance the clones with mids, but they did not. Use your imagnations people and think!

Quite! Use your imagination- why did they not clone Jedi? Because midichlorians aren't the key to being a Jedi- Jedi training is!

Besides, you just described a very, very boring scene...

>>>... the "problem" is giving this mystical Force a tangible, concrete, measurable, scientific link. Imagine, if you will, if certain people could "hear the voice of God", but only if they had a certain gene. Or if there was some blood test and if you had enough of "X" in your blood stream, you could tap into the "will of the Universe", but if you didn't, sorry...

Or imagine that EVERYONE could hear the voice of God, but only people with a certain, say, IQ were taught how to...

>>>>Alright, this one is fairly easy. In ANH, when Vader is trying to blast Luke out of space, he says: "the force is strong in this one." This would indicate to me that there is a way to detect force strength or potential without the midi's as a measuring device.

But his is while Obi Wan's ghost is telling him to use the Force, having already taught himto use the Force, and when he's just turned his computer off to... use the Force.

>>>>Someone else mentioned here that midi's create a continuity issue in that they're never mentioned in the OT. That, I will allow, is a fairly minor issue, but an issue nonetheless.

No more so than Yoda not being mentioned in ANH though?

>>>If they reside in all of your living cells, then shouldn't it weaken you in the force when you have fewer living cells?

I think intensity is the important thing. "Size matters not."

 

Ah, but Qui-gon didn't feel that in Anakin. Vader is very powerful and felt Luke concentrating on the Force. Anakin wasn't doing no such thing when Qui-gon found him. He was just doing his chores for Watto. Big difference.

You're right about Midichlorians in all life forms, but it's the measuring that comes in. Han would have a small concentration of them and wouldn't be able to feel the Force, no matter how hard Yoda tries. Anakin has an extremely large number and shows that with the right training, he would far surpass Yoda.

Luke and Leia are twins and their cells are divided up between each other. Thus preventing them from being stronger than Vader.

As to finding and training future Jedi, this shows how Luke can find them and keeps the films to 6. No loop holes to make 7-9.

endboss: I like the concept of Midichlorians. I see nothing wrong with them. As someone else said, nearly all of us have built up their own ideas of what the PT is all about and think that anything that's new and different, sucks.