Why do some STAR WARS fans still have a problem with the premise of Midi-Chlorians ??? (AN OPINION.)

A few questions:


1) The presence of midichlorians within living cells is a clear idea, but what about life forms that are not cellular or not carbon based ? Does this mean that they cannot be Force sensitive, I mean how can a little piece of cellular matter be common to all life ?

2) All the species on earth do not have a common fragement of DNA between them yet seemingly all Jedi do to accomodate midichlorians ?

3) Could Force senstivite people attract midichlorians rather than them being responsible for the Force, e.g an indicator of Force senstivity as apposed to a cause ?

4) When the Emperor cloned himself onto the blank clone bodies (EU but it need asked) how did he replicate / reproduce the midichlorians ?

5) If the midichlorians can be replicated / reproduced this way then why not manufacture them ? Armies of Jedi or Sith could be produced or Force sensitivity boosted ?

6) Only Qui-Gon Jinn talks about midichlorians in TPM, although Obi-Wan confirms that he knows about them and that Yoda has them. What makes this 100% true ? Perhaps this is only what those two particular Jedi believe the same way as some people believe in Tarot or Astrology or God (contreversial ).

Tycho Celchu

 

I think its safe to simply forget the whole midi think altogether. of course the same could be said for like 90 percent of TPM.

And to be fair, the midichlorians were neither the stupidest nor the most unnecessary things in that dud of a movie.


rather inidicative, though....sigh

And shouldnt this thread be in TPM forum? oh, right, only basher threads get closed in here.

 

i thought the midi chlorines did cheapen the idea of the force. i think Ob1's explanation in ANH was the best. i dident go into TPM and expect a cheap biology leason. it almost felt like i was being patronized by having it explained to me the same way he explains it to a 10 year old. i mean thats just what i feel, none of you have to agree with me.

 

I understand what you're saying, darth-sinister, and I don't necessarily disagree, except with the first point. Qui-Gon didn't necessarily have the opportunity that Vader did with Luke at first, but he spent enough time around Anakin watching him do other things that could've indicated his force potential.
I don't think you're implying this, but I'll say this anyway in case someone misunderstands. I'm not saying there aren't reasonably believable logical solutions to the questions I've raised, all I'm saying is that the creation of the midi's caused more problems to be solved than the simple resolution of one plot point warranted. Bottom line is, they were unnecessary and created more potential questions than actual answers. I would however, like some input on the solution of the Darth Vader problem I brought up. I'd like to debate that issue here, as I feel it is a key "nail" in the midichlorian coffin.

 

good post lancelot. but keep in mind that TPM was conceived and marketed with the technologically aware 10 year old in mind. And many of the posters in here are 10 years old , both mentalily-wise and chronologically.

 

In answer to your question #3 above, Tycho.

No. Force sensitives do not attract midichlorians. TPM makes it clear that they are present within all living cells, and that life and knowledge of the force could not exist without them. According to those TPM lines, pre-existing midichlorian levels determine whether or not you are sensitive enough to the force to use it as well as your potential power level. If life cannot exist without them, then you couldn't attract them by being force sensitive beforehand, because you wouldn't be alive.

 

Big Ben -

Your posts are terrific, very well-thought out and reasoned...and they beautifully demonstrate your basic premise - which is, I believe, that the whole Midi thing is simply not needed, and that it creates more problems than it solves.

The attempt to ground connection with "the Force" in pseudo-biology raises a HOST of scientific/practical issues, most of which have been touched on in this thread. Your discussion of Vader retaining Force potency when most of his body has been replaced by machinery was a great one, and just serves again to highlight the practical difficulties of the biological explanation. Is it concentration of midis that matter (X midis per cell? Per pound?) or is it gross numbers (more problematic), etc?

And none of this was necessary!

IMHO, anyway...

Shadow

 

Well I guess Lucas can't add something to his own creation just because some fanboys don't like

The Midichlorians explain why certain beings can become Jedi and others can't. Whats so bad about that?

I havent any problem with the whole thing. There is no need to. I just accept it, unlike alot of the moaners around here.

 

the above post perfectly illustrates the pointlessness and tedium in debating Gushers on the merits (or lack) of these movies.

 

Shadow Jedi: Thank you. It's always nice to be appreciated.

DarthTerrious: Listen to yourself! You can't win an argument by calling people names.
(I don't believe anything I said could be regarded as moaning). I realize you may not have been referring specifically to me. Great sig quote though!

 

Well I guess Lucas can't add something to his own creation just because some fanboys don't like

The Midichlorians explain why certain beings can become Jedi and others can't. Whats so bad about that?

I havent any problem with the whole thing. There is no need to. I just accept it, unlike alot of the moaners around here.

It was a respectable discussion until Ebenezer steped in.

How about you stop moaning and let us discuss these purely trivial concepts in our own way.

 

Midichlorians only interfere with some people's close-minded preconceptions of what Star Wars should be, but do not cheapen or remove the "mystique" of the force, as some unimaginative people have claimed.

If anything, the force is even more mysterious by their addition. For now not only are certain people specially chosen through a mystical process that is still a mystery, but they must also possess the discipline and training necessary to realize that potential. Even young Anakin Skywalker, despite having the highest midichlorian count ever seen in a life form, was less powerful in the force when he was found than the younglings in Episode II. It is only after intense training that he is able to tap into his powers, but he lacks the discipline which has greatly hampered his advancement in the Jedi arts.

Simply having great potential is obviously not enough as the individual must also possess other character qualities to become a Jedi Knight.

And why wouldn't Sidious make an army of force sensative clones? Well, there are several reasons:

1) Sidious knows as well as anybody that populating the universe with force users it not in his best interest as he wants to wipe out the Jedi completely.

2) As we saw in young Anakin, simply having midichlorians doesn't make you a Jedi. You must still go through years of rigious Jedi training, something I'm sure the Geonosins were unprepared to undertake.

3) It is my personal theory that midichlorians can not be cloned or transferred to another individual. I believe that in Episode III, the Jedi will turn to cloning in an attempt to replenish their dwindling numbers, only to discover this.

Bottom line: Midichlorains are officially part of the Star Wars mystique, so whyu don't you bashers just get used to them instead of trying to explain them away.

 

Great thread.

I don't mind midichlorians as a concept at all. I understand they're conduits of the force, not the energy field itself. Still, I wonder why no mention of them was made in Clones? Not important to the overall story I suppose.

Will we ever hear about midis again at all?

The idea of the force as a scientific,empirical,observable, rather than a mystical, thing goes back all the way to Star Wars. In that film, Obi-Wan says the force is "an energy-field surrounding all living things". He doesn't say "It's the gods or god or demons controlling things". It's not mystical at all. Kenobi even says "It also obeys your commands" as Luke wonders if it can control him.

If anything, Lucas destroyed the ambiguity of the force, not the myth of a mythological force. That was never there to begin with.

 

Qui-gon did sense something, but unlike Luke (who was radiating Force power from using it), Qui-gon had to be sure of what he was getting from him. He took the test as Shmi told him that he had no father. That suggested to him that there was more to this boy than meets the eye. The Midichlorian test proved that the boy was very well the Chosen One.

Lancelot: If you feel you were being patronized, then you have issues.

Midichlorians exist in all cells. They form and consolidate in a person or living thing. No attarction or anything like that. In the case of Vader, he still has the Midis, only they are consolidating in all the living tissue that's left and thus he still has his power.

A Jedi army would be counterproductive. Same with a Sith army. And as was pointed out, they would have to be trained to use the Force. Kinda redundent as the Sith only want two fully trained Force users alive. Sidious and his Apprentice, Tyranus and then Vader.

It's apparent clones can be made of Jedi. Taun We said as much to Obi-wan. That they wanted to clone a Jedi, but "Sifo-Dyas" said no. Midichlorians exist in all life forms. Including Jango, Boba and the clones.

 

Qui-gon did sense something, but unlike Luke (who was radiating Force power from using it), Qui-gon had to be sure of what he was getting from him.

I can understand that, because Luke was using the Force at the time. But then how do you explain Vader's ability to sense Obi Wan when the Falcon lands in the Death Star hangar? Certainly he wasn't using the Force at the time. ?

 

This is a very interesting thread...and people are rationally discussing the issue from both sides, which is a pleasant change.

I personally don't like the midis...no coincidence that they sound just like mitochondria, aye? For me, they take what was a sort of mythical, magical, spiritual association with the Force and stick it in a test tube. I always figure Force ability was like an aura, that those with force sensitivity could sense in each other. The idea of little parasites in your blood controlling your Force potential is just... somewhat of a let down.

I think it a bit unfair though to accuse those who don't like the midi's of being unable to accept new things. The Sith were new. The double-bladed lightsaber was new. The Master-Apprentice relationship was new. The temple was new. The senate was new. The council was new...I thought all this stuff was pretty cool, myself.

Darth Sinister, one of your comments raised a question in my mind: "Luke and Leia are twins and their cells are divided up between each other. Thus preventing them from being stronger than Vader."

This suggests a thinning of midichlorian density from generation to generation. If that were the case, wouldn't Force potential beings eventually die out? Unless, high midi count is some kind of common mutation...

 

This thread is a good read. Here's my two credits...

While I don't consider them to be a major issue, I don't like the midichlorians, and in a way I just realized why:

From the start, I complained (as a lot of folks are doing) that they took away the mysticism of the Force. But what I only just realized is that what is lost by their inclusion is not so much the mysticism as it is the poetry of the Force.

Before TPM the Force was an ephemeral idea, but TPM reduced it to something quantifiable. Vader felt Obi-Wan's presence on the Death Star. He sensed that the fighter pilot he was trying to destroy had a strong connection to the Force. It is something that is conveyed to the audience subtly and artfully. Unfortunately, TPM reduced it to a series of numbers on a computer screen. It's a plot device, and a clumsy one at that.

I understand that the plot needs to give Qui-Gon a good reason to insist on Anakin's training, and I suppose that the story as a whole benefits from explaining how Padawans are chosen to be trained. However, I don't think that the midichlorians are a particularly interesting or inventive way of getting there. It feels slapdash. It needs to be there and so it is. Plop.

What little potential the midichlorians had to enrich the saga in any meaningful way is not even followed up on. The intriguing "symbiont circle" concept is given scant lip-service and then forgotten. Then there's the heredity angle. But again, I felt that having Luke and Leia be strong in the ways of the Force "just because" their father was to be far more elegant than chalking it up to genetics.

So that's my real beef with the midichlorians. The idea is inelegant and not at all subtle. If just a little more care had been taken, we would have arrived at exactly the same place but the trip would have been far more...poetic.

 

Revised "A New Hope" script:

BEN: Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

LUKE: The Force?

BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. Oh, and it is mediated by these sub-cellular organelles called midi-chlorians that can be quantified with a simple outpatient blood test.


Ah, the OT's mythic quality...

 

About Luke and Leia. I don't think it's common like that. However because Anakin is the Chosen One, to prevent anymore from coming about, the will of the Force divided the offspring into two entities. I have no proof of this, but it fits with Lucas' statements about Anakin being the Chosen One and not Luke. To prevent that, we get twins.

Ah, but Palpatine didn't feel Luke. Or the Jedi on Tatooine and Naboo didn't feel Maul. Or Palpatine on Courscant. It's been speculated and the eu did deleve a little into this, that Jedi can feel each other through a bond they share. They don't hide themselves like the Sith do. Lucas has something in mind for episode 3 to explain that. Why and how the Sith can hide in front of the Jedi and destory them from within.

 

Sorry but I have to correct a statement just made. To say that because Luke and Leia are twins the midichlorians are divided equally between them and that is why they are not as strong as Vader is ridiclous!!!
On that assumption whenever parents have twins only half of the parents brain power can be passed on to each twin - resulting in "stupid" kids. Each twin would also only have 1 arm and 1 leg and one eye and ear... oh and only 1 lung and only be able to taste half as well? This is not at all how genetics and inheritance works. It is entirley possible (depending on the mode of how force powers/ability are inherited) that Luke and Leia both had as much force capability (or more) as anakin.
Any challenges???

 

Midichlorians also serve a very important purpose in establishing Anakin's character. Even if they aren't mentioned again in the series, Lucas made a smart move including them in Episode I.

Why? Because they establish without a doubt that Anakin has tremendous potential in the force. Had Qui-Gon merely "sensed" Anakin's potential or said something like, "I have never sensed a life form so strong in the force," it would have left too many questions. However, with the midichlorians, we now have an absolute measurement, free of bias or one's limited experience, something that establishes without debate or guess work, that Anakin is one bad mojo-jamma when it comes to force potential.

Of course, after introducing midis, Lucas had to then explain them, so we get Qui-Gon's lecture to Anakin. So even if they aren't mentioned again, their inclussion was a smart move. After all, we don't see any, "Could Anakin really be the most powerful Jedi?" debates, and this is the way Lucas wants it.

 

WELL>>>>>.......

I guess I have made it clear that I am in the OTHER camp... that is, we don't NEED a technological, "answer in a test tube" explanation about Anakin. For my own part, I can easily imagine Qui-Gonn simply NOTING the strength of the Force around Anakin, taking him to the Council, etc. After all, the introduction of the midis didn't REALLY make Anakin's status so cut-and-dried; there was still considerable debate as to his status as "the Chosen One", whether it was dangerous to train him, etc...

And again, I don't see the midis as a crippling flaw, by any means. I just see it as a very ODD touch that - to me - raised all sorts of very strange issues and questions, unecessarily. I certainly understand those of you who make the midi thing analogous to IQ or build (ex - how much of Michael Jordan's incredible "talent" is due to genetics ... gifts he was simply GIVEN .... and how much is due to his dedication, practice, etc), but to me, it feels odd to reduce something that seemed spiritual to something routine, mundane, physical, measurable, scientific. I don't think I can put it better than I did in an earlier post... imagine if you could do a blood test to see how attuned a person could be with God... *S*

Shadow

 

You're very correct, Durwood. It served the exact purpose you explained. TPM was supposed to introduce Anakin as the chosen one, midichlorians did this without a doubt.

It only cheapens the idea of the Force if you let it. As explained, midis are NOT the force.

Personally, I felt that midis were a very cool idea, but that's because I am a science buff, and I enjoyed the idea of a living microorganism that acted as a conduit. A very cool concept if you ask me.

 

I fail to see why Midichlorians were necessary to convey that Anakin was especially powerful and most likely the chosen one. That could've been made known to us through Qui-Gon sensing a great, odd power in him, followed-up by the revelation that he had no father and was most likely brought into existance by the Force itself. Not microscopic agents of the Force, but the Force itself. Simpler. Better. No Star Trek mumbo jumbo.

 

of course they were unnecessary endboss. but since Lucas squeezed it out of his ass, your average Gusher has no problem "going with it".

and since midis are NEVER mentioned in ep 2, i still say this thread does not belong in here.