Why do some STAR WARS fans still have a problem with the premise of Midi-Chlorians ??? (AN OPINION.)

Please read my last post on this matter SHAD0W-JEDI on page 7 as it tackles the qualm you have with what I believe to be the movie's use for the midichlorians. I think it will help you, but then again maybe not.

I think much of the problem (or perhaps the coolness) with Star Wars science is that George introduces a concept that you understand, but doesn't explain it fully and leaves that up to the audience or EU to explain. Examples I can think of include Hyperspace (How fast is it, what is it?), the Sith (Are there a few or many?), Blasters (are they lasers, plasma? Huh?), and some others this board has tackled over the years.

The Force in the OT is the perfect example of such a vagurie, so we as fans set about explaining it and then the midi's came along and changed that perception. I dont think that they destroyed what we thought the force was, but they definitely changed our ideas of how Jedi are able to do what they do. In a lot of ways I think that change was for the better, because I was never a huge fan of the pure faith theory, as it had some holes in it too.

Anyway, agreeing to disagree is still an agreement. At least this didn't become a flame war or basher/gusher thread!

 

Ive got your back Jenx!! Dont let the irony-challenged gushers in here discourage you. You go girl!!

And i think your sig, taken with a grain of salt, is perfectly appropriate. Move on kiddies...

 

sounds like durwood is having a bad day.

 

urall, I didn't dismiss durwood's explanation as speculative fabrication because it wasn't, whereas yours was. Learn to tell the difference. He had a well reasoned answer based on the information given to us by the movies, not on some baseless numbers.

That being said, I also have to agree with Shadow Jedi. Maybe midichlorians make sense in a lot of ways, but as he said, It didn't HAVE to be that way. That was the point I was making to begin with.

 

the numbers were based on speculation, not the speculation on the numbers

 

No, the numbers were speculative, and therefore anything based on them is at least equally speculative.

 

yes the numbers were speculative - based on the movies

Anakins count is "higher than 20,000" and "higher than master yoda" indicating yoda has the highest count after anakin and yodas count is less than 20,000.

everyone else is put in a position based upon their speculative postion given what the movie tells us about their "strength" in the force.

i didn't even come up with the numbers, but i think they are interesting. you said "everyone is supposed to have midiclorians, but then why couldnt Han be a Jedi". The list says that han does have them but not enough to be a jedi.

you said, Anakin's count should be weakened after he loses parts of his body, and the list took that into account as well. At this point, I don't even agree with that, since as others have pointed out, it is the cell concentration which is important.

i guess i really need to spell it out to get my point accross, sorry

 

I read your post on page 7, Jar Jar. You seem to be saying that it isn't absolutely necessary to have a high Midi count in order to become a powerful Jedi. You said it helps but probably isn't required. From what we've heard and seen so far, I think that's a reach and there's really no reason at all to believe that. All signs point to "The higher your Midi count, the greater your powers. If your count is only average, you're completely outta luck."

Wouldn't it have been great if we learned in Episode 1 that what made Yoda and Anakin so powerful and unique was that their Midichlorian counts were very low and average, and yet they were _still_ able to master the Force in ways that those with high counts couldn't? Yes, that would've been awe-inspiring. Why? Because a Jedi accessing the Force on his or her own without the help of abnormal genes is more awe-inspiring than what we have now. What we have now is Yoda with an abnormally high Midichlorian count, and so he's abnormally powerful. Anakin has an abnormally high Midichlorian count, and so he's abnormally powerful. *snore*

 

I like the idea of midi-chlorians, yet I think I know how this disagreement got started.

In ANH, Obi-Wan described the Force as, "an energy field created between all living things." The Force, as we learned of in during the OT, centered on the mystical/religous element of the Force. There was never any mention of a physical method of measuring one's ability to communicate with that "energy." Perhaps, because Obi-Wan and Yoda knew Luke's midi-clorian count shortly after his birth; or maybe simply being the son of Anakin (who had a count higer thn Yoda himself.) On more question for Episode III perhaps?

Then with TPM, and the introduction of midi-chlorians (for audiences), there was a scientific/quantitative measure that the Jedi of the Old Repbulbic used to test the level of perception of the Force in potential padawans. And this questioned, even threatened what audiences knew about the Force. And much of the backlash against the concept of midi-chlorians cames from a fear of our perceptions changing.

And in response to the notion that this idea of midi-chlorians and "the choosen one" are a "rip off" of "The Matrix"...aside from some special effects there was nothing NEW about "The Matrix." It's a bunch of repeated movie themes (including ANH) with a bunch of "generation-X"/cyberspace catch-phrases. Please don't give credit to an UNWORTHY OPPONENT!

 

I don't think Midi-Chlorians are able to be taken away after a injury. I think they are with the person forever. But the problem with fans about Midi-chlorians is we do not know a lot about them. George has not told us enough about them. It is suppose to be something you make up on your own.

 

Yeah, I kinda like how Lucas didn't reveal much about the midis. I don't know, I just never had an immediate problem with them. When I seen Episode I the first time and they were mentioned, it didn't even bother me to the slightest. I didn't really know what to think. It just wasn't a big deal to me at all.

*shrugs*

Stitch, formerly Pooja

 

You're still missing the point, urall. The point is that those numbers are pulled out of a hat, arse, what have you. I'm not saying you're the source, I'm saying those numbers are unofficial and contrived no matter the source. The only two numbers even based on the movies are Anakin's and Yoda's, since those are the only two referenced, but even there, the movies don't give exact figures. I agree with Durwood's concentration assessment. I don't agree with an argument based on numbers largely pulled out of thin air. Get it?

 

No, not having a bad day, but I also don't have a lot of patience for "Is not! Is too!" debates.

That being said, I also have to agree with Shadow Jedi. Maybe midichlorians make sense in a lot of ways, but as he said, It didn't HAVE to be that way. That was the point I was making to begin with.

There a lot of things in the Star Wars films that don't have to be the way they are but are. I mean, the Empire didn't have to leave the Death Star's primary reactor vulnerable, twice but they did. Han Solo didn't have to be the only one smart enough to think of offering cover fire to the fighters in the trench but he was. So the midichlorians didn't have to be introduced, but they didn't have to not be either, if you follow.

 

"I read your post on page 7, Jar Jar. You seem to be saying that it isn't absolutely necessary to have a high Midi count in order to become a powerful Jedi. You said it helps but probably isn't required. From what we've heard and seen so far, I think that's a reach and there's really no reason at all to believe that.

Well, we don't know the counts for Dooku, Mace, Obi-Wan, or any of the other Jedi or Sith we have met, yet each of them appear to be quite powerful and very capable with the force. It's not much of a stretch to see that they don't probably have legendary Midi counts yet at least in Dooku's case he was very easily able to hold Yoda at a stalemate when it came to the force.

"All signs point to "The higher your Midi count, the greater your powers. If your count is only average, you're completely outta luck."

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, of that there can be no doubt. Much of this may be due to his high midi count, yet how much of it has to do with fact that he has lived and trained for 800+ years? Another thing to consider is Yoda's role. He trains Padawans and delves into the force to look into events. Both of these roles seem perfect for one that has a high midi count and is in tune with the will of the force.

He is a great warrior yes, but primarily his role is one that compliments his genetic gift.

"Wouldn't it have been great if we learned in Episode 1 that what made Yoda and Anakin so powerful and unique was that their Midichlorian counts were very low and average, and yet they were _still_ able to master the Force in ways that those with high counts couldn't? Yes, that would've been awe-inspiring. Why? Because a Jedi accessing the Force on his or her own without the help of abnormal genes is more awe-inspiring than what we have now. What we have now is Yoda with an abnormally high Midichlorian count, and so he's abnormally powerful. Anakin has an abnormally high Midichlorian count, and so he's abnormally powerful. *snore*"

I guess we'll just have to not agree on that one. Sorry, but I've seen the "underdog with a will of iron triumphs" story about a million times more than you see the "The guys with all the cards, wins" scenario. Yoda simply has too many advantages to not be the master, and Anakin is obviously going to also be a potent force user as well. Currently his powers are well above what someone his age is capable of but I am not thinking he is superior to any of the other Jedi we have seen yet.

We'll just have to wait and see.

 

Forgive me for repeating myself, but here is a question that people who think about the mids should ask.

Does the mids cheapen the force, or does it cheapen the jedi more/at all? I say the jedi. It is like they are another race almost. It is not like the normal guy could be a jedi, only the lucky few.

Also, ask could the mids have been mentioned or used in AOTC somehow? Is it possible that Lucas planed to, but either due to the loud fans reacting or just not fitting as well as he thought it would, they were not put in. I think they could have been put into AOTC, but I dont know if Lucas planed it, or just used it to make us go wow at Ani.

Also, to me, the mids put a cap as to how strong a jedi can be. Before, a jedi was as strong as how much effort they put into being a jedi. Now a jedi can try all he wants, but there is a point where he cant get any higher (unless somehow mids are not fixed or something, but to me, it is safe to assume that mids are fixed since JM Yoda had less than the wonder brat with no training). That is a big reason why i dont like them.

 

I don't think the relatively limited fan reaction had much to with midichlorians being absent from Episode II. Lucas got sick of the negativity very early on and really doesn't pay much attention to the internet or the media any more (where 90% of the bitching goes on) so I don't think that had anything to do with their absence.

Midichlorians were a plot device in Episode I, and, in my opinion, their inclusion made the force and the Jedi order that much more interesting. Qui-Gon gave a pretty good explanation of what they were and why they were important, and I don't really know what else there is to say about them. Furthermore, I can't think of any situations in Episode II where talking about midichlorians would have been appropriate.

So it seems that Lucas' reasons for not including midichlorians in Episode II is based on practicality rather than being "embarassed" by petty fan reaction. We know everything we need to know about midis from Episode I and there was no need to bring them up in Episode II.

However, I have a theory that midichlorians will play a significant role in Episode III:

1) The Jedi will attempt to clone Jedi as a means of replenishing their dwindling numbers. However, they'll find that midichlorians can't be transferred to the new clones, at least not in a significant enough concentration to allow the clones to use the force.

and/or

2) The Jedi will reach a new understanding of the force that is not so scientifically based. This would explain Ben's rather ethereal description of the force in A New Hope while Qui-Gon's was based on imperical data. Midichlorians won't be eliminated from the picture, but the Jedi will realize they don't play as significant role as they thought.

 

Greetings. let me ask something , not having to do with midi chlorians..



The Force is EVERYWHERE. When/where , in ANH, does Vader feel a prescense of "something/someone" (obi-Wan) familiar?

 

Chew on this...there's another thing about Midichlorians. Lucas is showing how the Jedi are overwhelmed by the CIS and the Empire. If everyone could access it, then there wouldn't have been a problem. The Jedi wouldn't have fallen so hard. By limiting the number to 10,000 in TPM and 9,000 in AOTC, we see this come into effect.

 

<<<Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, of that there can be no doubt. Much of this may be due to his high midi count, yet how much of it has to do with fact that he has lived and trained for 800+ years?>>>

The training is important, but I'm reminded of steroid users. No matter how often a user trains and works out, ultimately, that person owes his or her abnormal physique and strength to the roids. No one pats a user on the back, saying "Wow, you train 7 days a week? Way to go!" Yoda's unique strength is no longer especially impressive, after learning he was born with a freakish Midi count that gives him unfair advantages. *pats Lucas on the back* Way to go, George!

 

JenX

>>>Along with the bad science, the clunking manner in which they were explained and other problems, midichlorians are just an added layer of bureaucracy. Instead of humans and others communicating with the force, we communicate with midichlorians, who then communicate with the force, which then reply's to the midichlorians, who then reply to us!

Well, I see it as Jedi still communicating with the Force directly. Midichlorians generate and focus the Force (as do all life), so the Force is stronger with those with more.

>>>Also, my signature is taken from the website also mentioned in my signature (although I can't seem to get the d--- thing to work).

Try putting "html" after the dot at the end (ie. "http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war7.html" instead of "http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war7.")

 

>>>>But the problem with fans about Midi-chlorians is we do not know a lot about them. George has not told us enough about them. It is suppose to be something you make up on your own.

Exactly. It seems odd to me that most of the criticisms are based on very flimsy evidence. It seems that people don't like the way that they've interpreted things themselves...

I think it's fair to say that the more importance people put on midichlorians, the poorer quality their interpretations are (Eg. "now Jedi need to speak to the Force via midichlorians, which sucks.")

>>>>The only two numbers even based on the movies are Anakin's and Yoda's, since those are the only two referenced, but even there, the movies don't give exact figures

And they're not correct, because there's nothing to suggest that Yoda's is less than 20,000. Flawed logic.

>>>Yoda's unique strength is no longer especially impressive, after learning he was born with a freakish Midi count that gives him unfair advantages.

Without knowing anything about anyone else's counts (a wise omission by Lucas for this exact reason, IMHO), that's flawed logic again.

>>>Well, we don't know the counts for Dooku, Mace, Obi-Wan, or any of the other Jedi or Sith we have met, yet each of them appear to be quite powerful and very capable with the force.

And yet Anakin in TPM, despite having more midichlorians than the lot of them, wasn't powerful and couldn't use the Force at all. And in AOTC after 10 years of training was still pretty useless against Dooku...

>>>Does the mids cheapen the force, or does it cheapen the jedi more/at all? I say the jedi. It is like they are another race almost. It is not like the normal guy could be a jedi, only the lucky few.

I'd say they raise a flaw in the Jedi order- which seeing as we had nothing but glowing references from the OT beforehand, and will have to have some flaw to be exploited if they get wiped out, isn't exactly a big surprise...

>>>Before, a jedi was as strong as how much effort they put into being a jedi. Now a jedi can try all he wants, but there is a point where he cant get any higher

I don't know- that seems to be like saying, for example, that your IQ puts a cap on how much you can know about something. A high IQ and reading a few books about surgery won't make you a better surgeon than someone with a lower IQ and 5 years of practical medical training behind them.

 

<<<Without knowing anything about anyone else's counts (a wise omission by Lucas for this exact reason, IMHO), that's flawed logic again.>>>

Not flawed logic at all. When Obi-Wan saw that Anakin's count was higher than Yoda's, he expressed shock. It's logical to assume that his shock was Lucas' way of telling us that Yoda's count was unusually high and unsurpassed, until Anakin's count was discovered. After all, Obi-Wan didn't say "That's higher than master Yoda's count! But come to think of it, who cares, since Mace, Dooku and a few others have counts higher than Yoda's." No flaws in _my_ logic.

 

"O.K., JenX, I see your idea of "discussion" is to contradict anything and everything I say. If I say "po-ta-to" then you'd say "po-tah-to." It's getting a bit tiresome really"

and

"...I also don't have a lot of patience for "Is not! Is too!" debates."


Oh, thanks a lot Durwood. I type out a long reply, in which I politely gave my opinion and (contrary to what you said) agreed with you on some points, and you just dismiss it as being petty, simplistic and playing with semantics.

We disagree Durwood. I'm not complaining about the fact that your posts contradict mine. I don't understand why you are. As long as we both can be polite about it, I don't see a problem.

Can we do that? I mean, we both pronounce it "po-ta-to", so that's a start

SRN


Well, I see it as Jedi still communicating with the Force directly.

But, according to QGJ, they don't. I mean, here is what he said about Jedi, midi's and the force:

"Midi-chlorians are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force...our midi-chlorians continually speak to us, Annie, telling us the will of the Force"

So you see, it's the force that speaks to the midi's, who then speak to us. As Durwood's lengthy post underlines, midi's are seperate lifeforms. So the Jedi aren't communicating directly with the force.


O/T Someone else said something about putting html after the sig, but nothing changed. I'll tinker with it again though. Thanks! O/T

 

SNR, you make a good point about the brain surgen and IQ, but I still hold with what I said. That limit may be very high to their skill, but it still seems like it is there. (trying to think of a good counter example) hmmmm... think of the surgen, but his IQ limits how good he can be eventually. Yes, experence will make him a better docter, but eventually he cant get any better because his IQ aint that high. Before, without the mids, the surgen could keep practising and trying, and become the best ever, but with the mids, eventually they will keep him from getting any better than a certain point, or atleast from my POV of the mids.

 

Enforcer:

How about this counter-example:

"Without a relatively high (or greater than normal) IQ, the would-be physician won't do well on the MCATs, won't be accepted into medical school, and therefore won't become a surgeon at all."

as in:

"Without a relatively high (or greater than normal) midiclorian count, the would-be Jedi won't do well on Mace's clairvoyance test, won't be accepted into the Jedi order, and therefore won't become a Jedi at all."

My dislike of the midis has nothing to do with fear of change, a fear of a different perspective, or any of the other armchair psychology we've been hearing about fans like us thus far.

I dislike them for literary/genre reasons. I dislike them for mythological reasons. I dislike them for mystical reasons. I don't think they fit well overall into the saga as a whole. I think Shadow said it quite cogently, and I agree whole-heartedly.