Why do they hate us?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by The1, Jun 9, 2002.

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  1. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    I'm going to give you a little help, to all of you who would want to overly criticize the US Educational system : you don't get to know a lot about other countries when you live outside the US ; they're not an exception but globally the rule.
    The main difference is not lying in the educational system, it's rather lying in the culture and media. US culture and media are pretty much self-centered, because almost everybody who has a decent life in the US believe they live in the best country in the World - something that I, as a Frenchman, with the reputation of a people who like putting themselves above others, would not do.
    The government itself is striving to be best, too. In fact, when you read US policies, they're not those of a state that shows real interest in dealing with others as long as they can avoid it. The US are playing the game not to live alongside others, they strive for profit and little else, whereas almost every other country in the World and in the Western World does care (Kyoto protocol, the ICC and several other issues being the fruit of that care - all of which the US refused to get into in the end).
    Bush's controverted (at least outside the US) SDI initiative is regarded as a threat outside your borders not because it would protect American people (so long as you're not a brainless hardcore Al-Qaëda fanatic) but because it would place the US in a position where they could lord over all without bothering to wonder whether we'd like it or not. Given the US's current poor international record, we certainly don't want that ; if the US citizens I'm adressing here are responsible citizens (and I do bet you are ;) ), you'll certainly understand there's reason for concern from a point of view from outside the US.

    You may not agree with all I said - that's your right, and I would for no reason try and deprive you from it. But do pay attention to the fact a country that says it's the first and foremost Human Rights defender, and thus the first and foremost enforcer of the idea that all men are equal, should invest so much in a project that'll make them anything but equal whereas the money they'll spend on it is dozens and sometimes hundreds of times the money "equal" states get to spend every year, and refuses to abide by the same constraints those "equal" states must live under, lest what little help we give them to keep their heads above water would be taken back from them and they'd be left to die miserably.
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Ahem. Hi, an Australian here. Speaker of proper English (tips hat to UK), and resident of Little America. Student of international relations, with emphasis on Latin America and Middle East.
    America makes enemies. September 11 WAS a direct response to US interferance in the Middle East since the day they toppled Mohammed Mossadeq and return the unpopular, brutal Shah to power. There has been as assumption of impunity when acting in areas, and direct consequenes have not been so much as considered when acting. When the US government trained mujahadeen forces in explosives, did they think those same tactics would be disseminated through the various Vahabi extremist groups like Bin Laden's al-Qaeda? Of course not. It is one example of many in the "Act first, think...maybe" policy that has now come back at you.
    America is a great nation, I know this, been there, love it. I have heard people liken it to too things; a playground bully and a big friendly dog. The playground bully does what's best for the bully, picks on other kids, steals lunch money, intimidates, threatens etc etc. It has it's cronies - UK, Australia (And we know it's true) - but they don't really act without permission.
    The other analogy, one I prefer, is of a big friendly dog who runs into a room, knocking everything over whilst searching for a pat (pet?). America doesn't mean to alienate and hurt people, it just does. The "bully" option is a more left wing anaolgy. Osama Bin Laden was a fanatic from day one, but an educated one, and when he sees Israeli support coming from the US, he sees the US interferring in an area he assumes the have no right to do so, he attacks you.
    You want further proof? Why did the IRA target London and other suburbs in Great Britain for attacks? Because the English got involved in their civil conflict. Now, when did America become terrorist targets? Two events
    1) Iranian revolution - in response to the brutal dictator the Shah being a US puppet, Islamic militants revolt and create an Islamic Republic. However, before this Iranian radicals seized the Embassy, right.
    2) Lebanon - when the "US Puppet" Israel (who aren't a US puppet,they act of their own free will all the time) invades South Lebanon in pursuit of PLO terrorists, HAMAS, Hezbollah and the Iranian Secret Police, Pasdaran, begin operations against America. The Embassy is bombed, CIA station chief Bill Buckley is abducted and murdered.

    You see a common thread - once you interfer in something that is both religious and percieved as "none of your business", you invite terrorist attacks. English + IRA, America + Islamic militants.

    Another reason is perhaps pollution - consuming near 80% of the world's resources. Another could be resource strip mining - "raping" of lands. Point is, whilst we in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada have no real reason to gripe - you've done us well (ANZUS for example) - many others do becaue Washington has seconded their lives to the "national interest" - and this includes coups on democratic regimes for fruit companies, military presence, and the like. People aren't jealous, just resentful.

    Part it's hard ruling the world. I'm sure the British Empire got flak too. Heck, the USSR deserves it too, it's just gone.

    E_S
  3. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    You forgot the most important and relevant analogy, that of World Policeman.

    We don't lumber nor do we bully. We just run around the world trying to keep the peace. Sometimes we run into a really bad neighborhood. Sure we might try and work with a mafia guy who keeps the place calm sometimes, other times we put in a family we know into a house in the middle of the street, and sometimes they shoot at thier neighbors too much. We might have throw a family out on the street or a small room for the house too, but none of the neighbors take them in, all they do is throw a few bucks at them to try and kill the children to get back at the men with the guns.

    Sometimes we put police in some of the houses, and some people get upset because we are next to their church, so they drive a car into some house in the suburbs.

    Sometimes we get hurt and run off limping, so they think we are weak and don't like blood.

    Sometimes some people in the suburbs who haven't had to protect themselves for fifty years, and they would like to ignore the bad area but they don't realize that the gangs could send a lot of cars into their houses.

    We are trying to do the best we can, and what people don't realize is that sometimes you have to go to war to save lives.
  4. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I'll quote Noam Chomsky here; normally I don't agree with everything he says but he's an American who says it best.

    "Today we do outselves no favours by choosing to believe 'they hate us' and 'hate our freedoms'. On the contrary, these are people like Americans and admire much about the US, including it's freedoms. What they hate is the official policies that deny them the freedoms to which they too aspire...
    We should also be away that much of the world regards Washington as a terrorist regime."

    Noam Chomsky, in the Weekend Australian
    September 7 - 8, 2002.

    E_S
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    LORDBAN: "so long as you're not a brainless hardcore Al-Qaëda fanatic"

    Hey, if they're so brainless, how did they manage to bring down the WTC? It's a dangerous thing you do, it was the US' flaw in Vietnam and it will be here. You ARE NOT SMARTER than your enemies. Don't think you are any more brainy that an al-Qaeda member; they've killed thousands of Americans, have you killed thousands of them? No. They are very very very very very smart, and if you want to beat them, thinking your way is only going to invite more failure and more suffering. You have to understand how they think and see things, then you'll nail them.

    But, I'm just an Australian, what do I know, right? ;)

    E_S

    (Goes back to firing up his barbie)
  6. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    I'm jumping in late - but there's a couple of reasons I can think of that may be the reason Americans are disliked.

    1. Foreign Policy

    Been discussed I know but I believe it to be the single biggest factor.

    2. Cultural Imperialism

    I know the average American can't be blamed for this but it's annoying to see the US culture pervade into every corner of the globe. Many religious and culturally proud nations don't like the fact that McDonald's, Coke, Nike, Seinfeld etc etc etc are permeating into and destroying their own culture.
  7. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    The only reason it is permeating and destroying the local cultures is because it is superior. Otherwise they wouldn't care.





    Good, I've extended the life of this thread a few more pages.
  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Read the Chomsky thing. They admire your culture, just not the policies coming out of Washington.

    E_S
  9. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    Hey, if they're so brainless, how did they manage to bring down the WTC? It's a dangerous thing you do, it was the US' flaw in Vietnam and it will be here.

    So dangerous in fact that the only way they could do it was by killing themselves. We made that airplane, and the people who carried out the attacks WERE brainless, they were simply tools.

    You ARE NOT SMARTER than your enemies. Don't think you are any more brainy that an al-Qaeda member; they've killed thousands of Americans, have you killed thousands of them?

    Um, yes we have. Obviously you have no idea what was going on in Afghanistan.

    We ARE smarter then them, how could you say that the greatest nation in the world with all the finest technology is stupider than a few guys in a cave with AK-47's and box knives who learn how to fly a plane into a building from said nation's schools is smarter?
  10. Emilie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2002
    star 3
    I was lazy to read the 46 pages of the topic, but here comes my little help.
    I am french, and here is why europeans hate americans :
    - They give themselves for being the defenders of freedom and justice in the world. Still, they are responsible for the numerous dictatures in south america, who murdered more people that the terrorist attacks will ever. (Pinochet, among others).
    If you don't know who Pinochet is, that's my point 2 : americans don't give a damn about the rest of the world... I lived in california for a couple years, and quicly found out that californians dispise the rest of their country and don't even know there is a WHOLE WORLD out of their bordures. Californians considers the rest of the USA just the way the USA consider the world : they don't care, except if it's worthy...
    Funny Irak has so much oil. Otherwise you wouldn't even know where it is set on a map! (do you even know, actualy?)

    There was a south-american international congress, lately. One sentence came out : "we want to ask the USA to stop giving us lessons of morals and behavior."
    That's sums it all up : the USA think they ARE perfection and enjoy saying it to everybody. But they seem to forget they still have death penalty and torture (What an example to the world! amazing!!!), that in some states people are allowed to carry weapons (wow again!), that they don't have any social system (social security, as we call it in france : everybody has access to medicine. For almost nothing!), that they have some of the most ridiculous laws i have ever heard about : (some sexual practices are forbidden : how far is the government and laws concerned by people's sexual life?!!!).
    One true thing though : they DO have the strongest army. They probably are the country who spends the most money on massive destruction weapons in the world!
    If they used this money to open schools, hospitals and social organisations, their country would go better... And the world too!!!!

    As a matter of fact, I have a solution to terrorisme. Mister Bush wants attacks like september 11th never to happen again, right? Why don't he spend money and time on worldwide social organisations, to help the people of arabian countries and africa who are suffering of starving and civil wars? If he spent half of his weapon budget in education and medical help to unhappier countries, I can assure you he wouldn't get attacked anymore.
    But he won't... He'd rather attack Irak to get their oil and money, pretexting some imaginary threat... and actualy, he also threats his "allies", as he did with germany :
    "if you don't decide to support us in our struggle for freedom and peace in the world (cough cough) we will kick you out of the OTAN."
    Nice man here.
    Well guess what? I'm a 100% supporter of germany, now!
  11. Olivier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 2
    Coolguy:
    So you think that because the US is a developped country, noone in a country like Afganistan or Ethiopia or Burkina Fasso can be more intelligent that the average American? You think that because those countries lack the infrastructure to build an aircraft carrier, they're not able to carefully plan an attack on the US?

    Obviously, some have been intelligent enough to hit the WTC, to evade capture in Afganistan (how many members of Al-Quaïda have been arrested or killed here, compared to the thousands trained over the last few years?)
  12. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    The only reason it is permeating and destroying the local cultures is because it is superior. Otherwise they wouldn't care.

    That's trolling Red-Seven, and you know it.

    I'll respond to it if you wish though. By one phrase.

    "Popular is not always better."

    Britney Spears is unbelievably popular, does that mean that she's better then some other unkown bands?
  13. Emilie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2002
    star 3
  14. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    "They give themselves for being the defenders of freedom and justice in the world."

    I seem to remember many American people dying on the beaches of Normandy. Funny how you forget so easily. My Grandfather spent time as a POW in Nazi Germany and this is how you repay him. Truly sad.

    "Funny Irak has so much oil. Otherwise you wouldn't even know where it is set on a map! (do you even know, actualy?)"

    Yes, I can find it on a map and I can spell it properly as well. Please refrain from insinuating ignorance.

    "There was a south-american international congress, lately. One sentence came out : "we want to ask the USA to stop giving us lessons of morals and behavior.""

    Oh, these guys? "Still, they are responsible for the numerous dictatures in south america, who murdered more people that the terrorist attacks will ever."

    "One true thing though : they DO have the strongest army. They probably are the country who spends the most money on massive destruction weapons in the world!
    If they used this money to open schools, hospitals and social organisations, their country would go better... And the world too!!!!"


    Not only does the United States government outspend all other countries when it comes to aid, but it's private citizens do as well.

    Why don't he spend money and time on worldwide social organisations, to help the people of arabian countries and africa who are suffering of starving and civil wars? If he spent half of his weapon budget in education and medical help to unhappier countries, I can assure you he wouldn't get attacked anymore."

    Read my point above. Mush of the money given to aid these countries merely ends up lining the pockets of their dictators. Maybe, we should go into the villages and start handing out wads of cash. Would that make you happy? We could also post patrols with our huge army so that we could be assured that warlords didn't swoop in to rob it away as well. Please provide me with you plan, I can't see one working until these regimes and warlords are removed.
  15. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    I seem to remember many American people dying on the beaches of Normandy. Funny how you forget so easily. My Grandfather spent time as a POW in Nazi Germany and this is how you repay him. Truly sad.

    But no British , French , Norwegian, Belgian etc soldiers died in WWII? How does that give you the title "Defenders of Freedom and Justice? Don't feign ignorance please.
  16. Emilie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2002
    star 3
    Back to the south-americans dictators point.

    Pinochet (among others) was putt on power by americans, pretending to be the defenders of freedom and peace and blablabla. Why? To avoid communism in south america.
    Yes, The URSS was a dictature (sp?). But wouldn't the real act for freedom have been to let the south americans make their own choice, instead of putting other dictators on the "throne"? Where is freedom and peace in that?!!!!

    And to WW2. Yes, we are gratefull to the USA, for helping. We'd have appreciated a help a little before everybody was dead, but well let's not blame them on this. They defended freedom, all right.; but notice what Pelleon (oops, forgot the name) just wrote.
    That was 50 years ago, and seing today the USA act in arabian countries, south africa, their imperialism in the World, seems to me lots have happened in 50 years!Does the word "freedom and peace" have changed meaning?
    The "USA defenders of freedom" does now make as much sense as the french calling themselves "country of the human rights" (Being french, let me tell you I know what I'm talking about) and almost electing a neo-fascist leader...
  17. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    GAP,

    "But no British , French , Norwegian, Belgian etc soldiers died in WWII? How does that give you the title "Defenders of Freedom and Justice? Don't feign ignorance please."

    Of course they did. They also defended freedom and justice did they not? No one proclamed that a title should be inferrered, just that a little recognition should be in order. My grandfather wasn't fed sawdust and poison for nothing.
  18. Emilie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2002
    star 3
    Perhaps the Europeans countries don't have the pretention to call themselves that way, in recognition to their mistakes?
    The problem with the USA is their oversized pride and the scorn (sp?) that goes with it.
    I don't say Europe isn't proud...
    I'm just seing 9/11 happened in the US and not France nor Belgium...

    What we are also trying to explain to you americans : you ask "why do they hate us"? Here is why. Agree or not, that's not the question. If people didn't hate the USA, 9/11 wouldn't have happened! So maybe there is something wrong there, for such terrible things to happen, for such hate to be developped?
    My american host-dad was telling me : "they are jealous of our way of life".
    Well. Your way of life (and ours) depends on the misery of numerous countries. Don't wonder then to get missiles on your face... And besides, you don't kill 3000 civilians by jealousy!
    These people have pride too, and seing the way they are treated and considered my us occidentals, I'm not suprised of the reaction!

    And Bush's decisions son't help, trust me on this. Everytime this man oppenes his mouth, he gets more people to hate him. Among Europeans too... And among some americans who may not want to react, afraid of being chased as witches in 1600, as japaneses in 1944, as communists in 1955, maybe?

    (another great exemple of the USA's freedom and tolerance, here...)

    à bon entendeur...
  19. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Okay, I see it all so clearly now.

    America is pompous and arrogant. We have made mistakes and now we are paying for them. Our attackers are warranted as we have wronged them in some way. I see. Now, we must give massive amounts of money as aid to foreign countries whose leaders have touted America as "The Great Satan" for generations in an effort to appease them. In essence, you would like us to bribe them and hope that they do not turn around and use that money against us. Guess what, we tried that. We gave money, arms, and training to Usama. Does he value the assistance we gave him to protect his people from Russia? Of course not. We also armed and aided Iraq during the war with Iran. Of course, they are grateful right? Oh wait, again they still hate us. I see a nasty pattern here. Until you can come up with a viable solution that does not require me to shell out my hard earned money into the furnace of hate that powers terrorism, then I will assume that you do not have one.

    Another point. These Islamic militants attacked America not because of the actions that we have taken, but because we are the symbol of freedom in the world. It is not distputable, correct or not that is how they see it. You forget that they would have you conform to their way of life as well. You are an infidel as well as I am. Their twisted brand of Islam demands that they kill you and drive you from your land. Still comfortable. Don't worry, if it gets heated enough and the flames reach France we will be there to assist you even though you choose to abandon us now. Heaven help us all if it ever gets to that point. I pray that the world's leaders have the forsight to see it and extinguish it before history repeats itself once more.
  20. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    ...but because we are the symbol of freedom in the world.

    I can already picture it:

    [Setting: Tora Bora, Persons involved: Bin Laden & his croneys.]

    OBL: "My fellow Muslims, we must strike against America!"

    Croney: "But why oh holy one?"

    OBL: "Because America is a country that is based on Democratic principles, and all of you know very well how much I despise democracy and freedom!"

    Croney: "But how oh most exulted one?"

    OBL: "Ah, this is simple, we ask a couple of cowards to do a suicide-attack on the WTC! that'll surely deliver a blow against freedom!"

    Croney: "By Allah! You are right! I'll get right on it!"

    [scene fade]

    Suuure...
  21. Olivier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 2
    It is not distputable, correct or not that is how they see it.

    Yeah, suuure
  22. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    GAP,

    How about some real dialouge as opposed to your contrived script.

    This is from Al-Qa'ida spokesman Suleiman Abu Gheith.

    "How can [he] possibly [accept humiliation and inferiority] when he knows that his nation was created to stand at the center of leadership, at the center of hegemony and rule, at the center of ability and sacrifice? How can [he] possibly [accept humiliation and inferiority] when he knows that the [divine] rule is that the entire earth must be subject to the religion of Allah - not to the East, not to the West - to no ideology and to no path except for the path of Allah??"

    "As long as this Muslim knows and believes in these facts, he will not - even for a single moment - stop striving to achieve it, even if it costs him his soul? his time, his property, and his son, as it is said, 'Say [to the believers]: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your wives and your kinsfolk and the worth you have acquired and the trade, the dullness of which you apprehend, and the dwellings that you fancy are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger, and striving in His cause, then wait until Allah issues His judgment. Allah guides not the disobedient people?'"

    "America is the head of heresy in our modern world, and it leads an infidel democratic regime that is based upon separation of religion and state and on ruling the people by the people via legislating laws that contradict the way of Allah and permit what Allah has prohibited. This compels the other countries to act in accordance with the same laws in the same ways? and punishes any country [that rebels against these laws] by besieging it, and then by boycotting it. By so doing, [America] seeks to impose on the world a religion that is not Allah's?"

    "America, with the collaboration of the Jews, is the leader of corruption and the breakdown [of values], whether moral, ideological, political, or economic corruption. It disseminates abomination and licentiousness among the people via the cheap media and the vile curricula."

    "America is the reason for all oppression, injustice, licentiousness, or suppression that is the Muslims' lot. It stands behind all the disasters that were caused and are still being caused to the Muslims; it is immersed in the blood of Muslims and cannot hide this."

    "America's standing with the Christians of the world against the Muslims has stripped the camouflage from its face. Much can be said about this regarding the Sudan, the Philippines, Indonesia, Kashmir, Macedonia, Bosnia, and other tragedies. America's siege on the Islamic countries as punishment for their rebellion against its laws has transgressed all limits, and Muslims have suffered economic losses that outstrip the imagination."

    Shall I continue?

  23. Emilie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2002
    star 3
    Oh I get your point.
    the USA should go chase and kill every muslim, just as they tried to do with communists, with witches in 1600, with japaneses in 1944...

    Absolutely not appropriate.
  24. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Please do not put words into my mouth. I have no desire to see anyone killed. I specifically stated "Islamic Militants", you know, the ones who wish to blow me up because I live in America and justify it because I am not Muslim. They are not true Muslims anyway. Again, please do not place words into my mouth.


    Edit: Emilie, please stop throwing America's past events in my face or would youlike to be reminded of your own countries deplorable actions in history?
  25. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    oh yeh, and why does your "world series" not have any teams in it from outside the US ? Its hardly a world anything.

    The World Cup, now thats a proper global competition. Every single country in the world can participate, even the countries so small they don't have a decent football stadium are invited to play at other nations stadiums to make sure everyone gets their country represented.

    M
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