Why do we care so much?

This is really a simple question:
Why do Star Wars fans care so much what other people think about our judgement of one or all of the Star Wars movies? By TF.N standards, I admit to being a "casuall fan", and really overwhelmingly a fan of the original film from 1977. However, I do enjoy and appreciate various aspects of all of the films. Yet even I, a TF.N regular, am puzzled by the need to defend my positions here. Sometimes I see the same puzzlement by fans of just one of the two trilogies or fans of the entire saga. I play guitar and also frequent various guitar and music sites. On those sites everyone accepts the fact that we are all guitar players (of various tastes and abilities) and everyone tends to respect each others tastes and ideas, even when they don't agree. You don't see Heavy Metal players dissing blues players or fans of Fender instruments telling Gibson players they should switch gear, etc. When discussing, say, 60's music, some people love the Beatles best, some the Stones, some Hendrix, the Yardbirds, Cream, etc. This rarely presents a problem--everyone's attitude on those sites is more like "that's cool, but I prefer X--I see why you like Y, but hey--live and let live". Sure, guitar players are the coolest, but still, I think there is more to it than that. It is more just a forum to talk about our hobby. Occaisionally, and in some threads the same open minded attitudes are shown here. But often it seems that people are upset when others do not share their own interpretations and tastes regarding a series of movies. Why do you think this is? What is it about Star Wars and Star Wars fandom that is so divisive? Why is this hobby so different from others? What does this say about us as fans or about the films themselves? This is, of course a thread to discuss this abstractly, and not a place to bring up individuals. I want to comply with the TOS and the "films, not fans" rule, but I think this is a worthy question to ask about the saga and its fandom as a movement (not as individuals).

So, what do y'all think?

 

I've got a lot to say about this, but I want to work on it a little more and see some other people's views before I post.

 

Why do we care so much? Because some things are worth caring that much over.

 

I wish it were like your guitar example, Poppy.

I no longer identify myself as a SW "fan" because typical, self-identified SW fans are the kinds of people who viciously assault others for their opinions, absolutely despise at least some aspect of the official 6-film canon, and hatefully spout why they do so in an arrogant manner.

I'm going to quote TF.N's own long-lost Cryogenic here:

"Star Wars fans are some of the nastiest, rudest, lecherous, duplicitous, callow, offensive, bitter, petty, and joyless individuals that I've ever met. They're a unique breed. They disgrace themselves at every turn and make the Internet a thoroughly uninviting place."

It's all about attitude. SW has apparently attracted more bad apples than other "hobbies."

But your question is "WHY?"

Maybe it's because the films are undoubtedly divisive. The PT/OT divide is the most prominent when it comes to the phenomenon you describe, so I'll address that. The PT is essentially a remake AND a deconstruction of the OT. It has to be both similar and different by necessity, and given the fact that the OT is perhaps the most beloved series of films EVER, few if any "fans" of the OT would have been satisfied by the PT no matter how it turned out. So why are they SO defensive about it? Why aggressively FLAME the PT and rationalize anything and everything in the OT (or just one of the OT films)?

BECAUSE THEY RELY ON EMOTIONS MORE THAN INTELLECT.

And very emotional people are always obscenely defensive about their beliefs.

Some of the films appealed to their emotions (probably when they were a child), so whenever another one came out, they were either capable of accepting it as part of the series or rejected it outright. Each film bears the name "Star Wars," so if you like one thing called "Star Wars" and something else comes along called "Star Wars" too (that you don't particularly like), it must feel like betrayal--and there's how things get blown out of proportion. That's the source of this kind of response, in my opinion.

Plus, there's the fact that the PT was separated by the other films by 16 years...just like "The Godfather, Part III."

I think the PT is much better than the OT in every respect, and while I understand that people have different taste or think the PT is bad, there's NO WAY that it deserves the extreme negative reactions exhibited by SW FANS. NOTHING deserves that kind of response save serious injustices to humanity. Their emotions have overrided their intellect.

But that goes for any SW debate. The vitriol is caused by complete and utter devotion to dogmatism--all started because at least one of the films was EXTREMELY impressive to someone and absolutely cherished. Ironic?

 

That's a bold statement.

 

I don't care at all what people think. I just get offended at the notion that some people think that their opinion is superior to another person's opinion. I have been tirelessy stating I hate people on any website who state their opinion as fact or the truth, it is the one thing that gets me really going and annoyed. Other than that I don't care if a person is of the opinion that all of Star Wars is crap. I am 28 and I know some people who think it has no cinematic legitmacy whatsoever. I think Star Wars strikes the perfect balance of pure cinematic escapist entertainment and still yet retains it's artistic value. I hate fans who just can't sit down and enjoy a film, and I don't care if you are a film school student and what you have studied I will always be of the belief that movies are for entertainment than educational purposes. Again it is my opinion. Another thing that irks me about some and a lot of people will get angry but I don't believe fans should feel a sense of entitlement to a franchise, you can freely make the choice to support or not. I think most people today have generic opinions and are incapable of formulating an indepedent opinion, so many people are so afraid to think anything that is not the popular opinion that we have a society of cookie cutter idiots who can't form a independent thought. I don't care what the cookie cutter mobs of idiots think about Star Wars.

 

Yes, after you bolded it.

 

Years ago, I watched a British program wherein two theologians debated the disposition and legacy of Saint Paul. The first averred Paul was a reactionary, whose cosmology and social convictions constituted a betrayal of the Christ; the second, in decoding various anti-statist passages and distinguishing authentic Paulist texts from those believed to be crafted by unenlightened successors, deemed him a radical. Naturally, both were erudite and extraordinarily lucid in presenting their cases; just as apparent, though, was the outright contempt each had for the other. You could see it in their flitting eyes and agitated shifting. You could hear it in the force of their delivery. Neither took kindly to having their matrix disturbed. Now, how much would you wager that if Aaron MacGruder or Simon Pegg--two tremendous talents whose attacks on The Phantom Menace could have been mistaken for a cuckold's ramblings--were pitted against, say, the Lard Biscuit fellow, we'd be treated to a similar display? Few let loose into disappointing follow-ups like Diamonds Are Forever or Alien 3 with anything resembling zeal, yet here we are, taking aim at whatever SW film disappoints us. (I'm not above this, myself. I'd gladly consign my DVD of Return of the Jedi to the spice mines of Kessel.)

All this leads to the question: When is a confection not a confection? And I'd say that with the release of Empire, Star Wars parted ways with its spiritual cousins, The Wizard of Oz and the first five or so Disney features, and was elevated to the status of prevailing-monomyth-of-cinema (it might have had competitors, had silent film not perished). It was alchemy, and we may never see something comparable again. From that moment on, it would prove as difficult to reduce the Skywalker chronicles to mere popcorn entertainment as it'd be to relegate Coppola's Corleone saga to gangster pot-boilers (which is precisely what Puzo's source book was).

As daffy as it sounds, I think we care because the material and presentation of such demands it.

 

Speaking for myself and hopefully many others... Im passionate when it comes to Star Wars. If you have never seen Star Wars Id be one of the first to try and convey whats so great about it and why I think you should see it. If you tell me you've seen it and didnt like it Id tell you why its revered by so many. Ultimately though I dont push any of my opinions on to people. Although I will say I started to almost believe I was nuts/bonkers over Star Wars to the point where I was wondering if I was seriously insane on how I connected the movies to anicent tragedy and mythology, that was until I saw Star Wars Legacy Revealed!!!!! turns out Im sane. Whewwwww...

 

The very same accusations could be made against fans of pretty much any sports team in any city in America. No matter what you like, there will be jerks that like it too, there is simply nothing you can do about it. If you let those "fans" control your life, then you were never a fan to begin with. A real fan wouldn't give up their fandom because of another fan's behavior. I cheer for the Oakland Raiders in most cases, (barring them going against the Detroit Lions, as was the case Sunday) call myself a Raider fan, but do not really identify with "Raider Nation". I don't own spiky shoulder pads, don't feel the need to paint my face silver and black, etc. I am, for the most part, a normal person. I am also a Star Wars fan. I enjoy the movies a great deal, I love to analyze the story for symbolism, for extra meaning, looking for nuances that others might not catch, etc...but, there is no Stormtrooper costume in my closet, nor do I even have a toy lightsaber. I have gotten into debates with other Star Wars fans in this community, however, I think what you might have difficulty grasping, is that its not personal. We have differing opinions, but, I think for the most part, the debates remain civil, there aren't any hard feelings toward people who disagree, its just a bunch of people sharing their opinions. Even my frequent sparring partner, SithStarSlayer, is by no means an enemy. You can't let other people dictate what you enjoy. You are giving them a power they don't deserve. As with every thing people get passionate about, there are people at the extremes of any issue, and the majority of people fall in the middle somewhere. Those on the extremes are the most vocal, but that doesn't mean they are the most numerous. You can't let them be in control of what you enjoy.

 

I odn't know, from my experience, sports fans tend to be more like guitar players, sure they get mad when their team does poorly, particularly when they lose to their rivals (I am a Yankee fan, and ergo can't stand the RedSox)--however, sports fan tend to group themselves around people who are fans of the same team (usually by where they live) and are frustrated by the same things (i.e. a star player who gets paid a lot of money is in a hitting slump, we're on a losing streak, etc.). Sure rivalries get heated, particularly at a bar after a few drinks when you are the only Yankee fan visiting Boston on a given day in late September, but these things are never personal and a real sports fan concedes that a team they do not like is good if they play well--afterall, statistics mean a great deal in sports and sports are relatively (compared to art and film) objective--you get a winner and a loser, etc. I don't think art and film are much like sports in this sense. It would be more like to lovers of classical music getting together and getting hot and bothered about the works of one composer--i.e. "I love Beethoven's first 5 symphonies, but he sold out in the last 4--what was he thinking!", "No way man, the 9th rules! the others were just preparation for it!". Sure everyone has their preferences, but such a conversation would never occur, at least not with the heat and contention of typical TF.N debates about the Star Wars films. But we all have different experiences I guess. I find the need to establish canons and consensuses of opinion (and hostility towards those who think differently) among Star Wars fans unlike the behavior of most other types of fans.

 

we are hardly different than Trekkies/Trekkers debating which Captain was the best, or those LOTR fans who debate which scenes they thought should have been in the films that were in the books, etc. Lets face it, thats just the nature of the beast. Granted, Star Wars fans are greater in numbers than any group other than Trekkies/Trekkers, because the films have a universal appeal, having been enjoyed by both adults and children since 1977. The story doesn't age, even if the special effects seem to. Star Wars has cultural significance, its affect on American society cannot be denied. Like I stated in my first post, we care so much because its worth caring so much over. Caring doesn't mean agreeing though. I think we have to stop assuming that a cohesive canon will ever be agreed to. We all see the world through slightly different eyes, our perceptions of the same events will differ, so will our interpretation of the movies. As long as there are questions, we will all have different answers. But, it's through discussing the movies, that I have grown in my understanding of the films. By hearing other people's ideas, opinions, it lets me examine what I believed about them, and gave me a measuring stick to judge whether my opinions still had merit or not. We also can discuss them in depth, because there are only 6 of them. Unlike Star Trek, there are over 500 total hours of viewing, between all the series and films, while we only have to worry about roughly 13 hours for Star Wars. That gives us fans time to rewatch each film multiple times throughout our lives...Star Wars is comfortable. Its familiar. Its a friend you keep coming back to when you just want to watch something...

 

That old phrase about academia rings very true of SW fans - they're so petty because the stakes are so low

 

What? You're comparing sports fans and guitar players and Star Wars fans? When was the last time you saw a bunch of Star Wars fan start a riot in the streets after a Star Wars movie? When was the last time you saw a bunch of Star Wars fans start a riot in an amphitheater? Well I've seen and everyone in the world excluding you have seen plenty of riots created by both fans of music and fans of sports. Fans of sports and music for whatever reasons are prone to outrageous acts of violence and chaos and it's not just the U.S., its everywhere in the world. Does George Lucas receive threats from Star Wars fans? Well when Philadelphia lost the Series, Mitch Williams was the subject of death threats and other hostile reaction from some irate Phillies' fans. I myself was the invited to a fight after I told a Rush fan/guitar player that Rush sucked. This is a classic case of seeing what you (DarthPoppy) want to see. And BTW, Poppy, you're usually the one fanning the fires of our little tussles here at tf.n and I've seen you over at ORS promoting your anti-PT, anti-Lucas and "anyone who thinks Star Wars has depth is stupid" rehteric. At least we're not causing chaos in the streets/amphitheaters/sports arenas across the globe like your peace-loving/live and let live sport and music fans.

 

Darth-Davi, excellent post. I think you speak the truth--there is a lot to care about in the films, and you are right, the closest form of fandom probably is to be found amongst the Star Trek crowd.

Immolated One, in case you have not noticed, it has been a long time since I have posted anything aggressive either here or at ORS--in fact, at ORS, I don't even post in the Star Wars threads or the Basher's Sanctuary, but mostly only in the Literature and Music threads. I don't think I was ever more or less aggressive here than anyone else (accept manybe a couple of years ago, in the golden age of the Basher's Sanctuary, where that was the whole point of the thread--I admit sometimes debates from there spread out, which, I understand, is why the administration ended it--and when I did that and crossed the line, I was banned--I haven't been banned in over a year). For me, and from my experience, sports fans and guitar players do not try to convince other guitar players and sports fans that their tastes are wrong and that you should be like me, etc. A Yankee fan may tell a RedSox fan that he hates the Sox, but he doesn't try to convince the Sox fan that he or she is really secretly a Yankee fan; a blues player who tries to get the sound of Muddy Waters or Elmore James doesn't try to convince a metal player that he or she shouldn't try to get a sound like Steve Vai or Randy Rhoads, but should try to sound like B.B. King instead (rather most guitar players will concede that of the above are guitar legends). The only time I have ever seen people get in fights over music sucking or not has been on the Jr. High School playground among non-musicians. If your experience is different, so be it, but if it is that different, I would be very surprised. I also said in this thread that this was a general, not personal discussion; remember, "films, not fans", etc. As for riots at music venues and sports venues, I think drugs and alcahol have something to do with that. I was talking about fan discussion on internet sites, in bars and cafes, etc. I never tried to say that guitar players or sports fans are more peaceful, I am talking about the tone they take in discussion of things they are passionate about.

Anyway, peace dude. Part of why I started this thread is to see why people are so passionate. I realize that I had made mistakes in the past and want to be more tolerant here and everywhere. Recent posting of forums like JamSession has shown me how pleasant good internet discussion can be. If in the past I insulted anyone (Immolated One, MisterVader, Go-Mer-Tonic, Cryogenic, Shelley, RamRed and anyone else I might have overlooked--some of these names are from fights years ago), I apologize profusely and, please, believe me, I am trying to change my posting ways. I really am a very easy going, tolerant, liberal kind of guy. The reason for my question is that I see more hostility towards diverse opinions here than in similar sites for other hobbies/fandoms. When a thread establishes a certain tone, it is hard to stay polite, I understand this and have been guilty myself (I never denied this). I was just wondering what it is about us and/or our subject that leads to this whereas similar forums for other interests seldom go so far.

Peace and Mutual Respect to All

 

I was born in 1965 and have been into STAR WARS since before the first time I saw the movie STAR WARS in 1977 and I have an ever growing STAR WARS collection.

Speaking for myself, I spend my time enjoying STAR WARS, not arguing about it and not attacking it and not defending it.

I'm not threatened, personally and for STAR WARS, by differing opinions on STAR WARS and attacks on STAR WARS and STAR WARS can explain and defend itself better than anyone ever could.

I get my STAR WARS knowledge/beliefs/understandings/thinking/feelings directly from the source and source material and I'm directly infuenced concerning STAR WARS, by the source and source material.

I enjoy discussing STAR WARS with others. Positive discussions/comments are great.

I don't care about negative discussions/comments. They don't change STAR WARS and the fan of STAR WARS that I am.

Enjoy STAR WARS. I enjoy STAR WARS.

 

I think most Star Wars fans are fans of movies in general: I know I am. So I think we're prone to be a little more dramatic than sports fans or music fans. We probably have a flare for fake drama since we like it in the movies.
Star Ware movies are silly and I really like it that George Lucas doesn't take them seriously like most of the fans. Most of your Lucas bashers are the same: They like the orginal, TESB and they kinda like ROTS and they can stomach AOTC but totally hate the other 2 movies. And I've notice that most Lucas bashers hate "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade". "TPM", "ROTJ", and "IJATLC" all represent movies where Lucas shows he doesn't take these movies too seriously. I don't let things like farts, burps, teddy bears and horrible dialogue stand in the way of what the movie is saying. To me, what the movie is saying is the most important thing. Star Wars as a saga is one whole movie and it says something truly profound but it really doesn't say anything more than a 2 hour movie can say.

Within a couple movies that no one really cares about there are a couple lines a dialogue that no one really cares about but they say what George Lucas never did because Star Wars is a visual story and not just a bunch of talking heads.

"Shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst."

"9/11 showed us what human beings are capable of. The evil, yeah, sure. But it also brought out the goodness we forgot could exist. People taking care of each other for no other reason than it was the right thing to do.

Within the PT the people have forgotten the goodness that could exist and it took a horrible time a.k.a The Empire, which they brought upon themselves, for them to do the right thing in the OT. Now this is what the saga means and I defend it because of this reason because that alone is worth defending the saga.

 

Peace to you too, DarthPoppy.

 

I think part of it is because the story echoes bigger themes than we might see at first glance. I know a large part of my affection for the Star Wars films lies in my faith in God. Not turning this into a religious thread by any means, but the whole redemption theme resonates with me. Watching the downfall of Anakin Skywalker, and then his restoration into the Light because of the enduring faith of his son is a very good message, I think. Watching Anakin Skywalker become Darth Vader become Anakin Skywalker again gives me hope that even if I am not the best person in the world all the time, that I too can change, and make a difference for good, that it's never too late to make the right decision, even if its following a lifetime of making the wrong ones. I think its that overarching theme that sets Star Wars apart from other Sci-Fi fantasies. Its not just good vs evil, its not just hero vs villain, its more than that. It becomes more than the sum of its parts. I don't even think its a stretch of the imagination to call it important. It started out as a film, but it evolved. I can't really describe it, other than Star Wars is just...different.

 

Watching the downfall of Anakin Skywalker, and then his restoration into the Light because of the enduring faith of his son is a very good message, I think. Watching Anakin Skywalker become Darth Vader become Anakin Skywalker again gives me hope that even if I am not the best person in the world all the time, that I too can change, and make a difference for good, that it's never too late to make the right decision, even if its following a lifetime of making the wrong ones. I think its that overarching theme that sets Star Wars apart from other Sci-Fi fantasies. Its not just good vs evil, its not just hero vs villain, its more than that. It becomes more than the sum of its parts.


I agree. Very few science-fiction/fantasy sagas possess this particular aspect in its stories. I can think of one or two other sagas that are similar. But Lucas created a saga that has managed to rise above the usual good vs. evil stuff.

 

I reread what I wrote, and I think I was trying to pitch another History Channel/Discovery Channel documentary type thing, lol

 

My post came across as melodramatic. I just don't want to be identified as a SW fan, because I think that SW "fans" have been given a bad name by the kinds of people I'm referring to. I simply like SW a lot, OK? Sports teams are a bit different, in my opinion. Allegiance is either somewhat arbitrary or determined by location, and not usually by personal taste or reason. I see it as the exact opposite of giving them control over my preferences, btw. With SW, there's a veneer of rationality that a lot of bashers exploit to their advantage. Someone who hates a sports team usually means it in a jokey manner and everyone is well aware of the fact that fan stances aren't determined by reason, but instead by loyalty to one's community. Applying the same idea to SW is basically what's happening in terms of the PT/OT divide, except it's often deadly serious and under the guise of legitimate "argumentation." It's spiteful, unwarranted emotion masquerading as logic, and it's pervasive.

And thanks, DarthPoppy. I know you mean well.

 

By this reasoning, then, there can be no 'legitimate' criticism of any piece of art or entertainment. And no, I didn't miss the irony that's inherent in your observation...

 

I think the divide is certainly there with Star Wars between the "bashers" and the "gushers" or whatever childish label anyone wants to use. Neither side is completely the victim either. The "bashers" have gone too far at times as have the "gushers" so depicting either side as saintly isn't the entire story.

I personally think it's sad that people let whether they prefer one part of the series to another determine what they think of another person as while I love Star Wars when you come down to it, "it's just a movie." It's a movie that has had a great effect on mine and many other people's lives but it's hardly something that should make it so you hate someone else.

My personal view is that a Star Wars fan is anyone who likes a single piece of the series if they want to be one and that someone who only likes the Prequels is just as much of a Star Wars fan as someone who just likes the Classic Trilogy, someone who just likes The Phantom Menace, someone who just likes Star Wars, someone who likes the entire saga, etc.

Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with debating some of the points in the films such as whether or not the Jedi Order is heroic, whether or not Anakin was right to put his loyalty to Palpatine over the Jedi, whether or not the Rebellion is good, etc. as it can help us get the point the movie is trying to get across as well as with a select few possibly helping us discuss events that can be related to things we come across in our every day lives such as using the question of whether or not the Rebellion is good to examine whether or not legality and morality are one in the same, but without some of the loaded terminology it would have in dealing with current events.

I also think that debate about the quality of the films is completely fine and really quite healthy for the fanbase as a whole. The problem I think comes in when it moves from simple disagreements on the validity and quality of the art and moves into the realm of petty personal attacks. There's a difference between saying "I think Lucas has lost his touch in the 22 years between Star Wars and Menace.", "I think Lucas's storytelling abilities have matured greatly as he has grown older.", "The Phantom Menace is the greatest film ever made.", or "The Empire Strikes Back is the worst film ever made." when compared to "All bashers had miserable childhoods." or "All gushers are fools who blindly accept whatever drivel Lucas gives them." The former list are all legitimate, the latter are just petty personal attacks.

I think the reason we care so much is simply how universal the themes Star Wars deals with are.

 

What are you talking about? I'm just explaining my observation that every "basher" I've come across isn't logical. They pretend like their "reasons" have merit, even though they don't. The fact is that they HATE the films and try to come up with explanations for their emotional responses that have NOTHING to do with the films' quality. They fail on every count. I've yet to see a good, logical explanation for why the OT is better than the PT. They're just being dogmatists. You know what I mean: "CGI=bad" and the like. It's shallow nonsense.