Why do we care so much?

I just think most of us enjoy the discussion and the debate, especially over something that we all (or at least most of us) truly like.

 

Indeed this is true, MistrX. And I think it is even safe to say that we all truly like at least some parts of SW or else we wouldn't be here in the first place. And this is what caused my initial question--why do these discussions and debates so often turn ugly? Sure I might (and do) like the original film the best, someone else (like MisterVader) might (and does) like TPM the best. That is cool; he can understand my reasons and I can understand his; we can (and now do) respect each others positions and are cool with it. I know I used to feel a need to defend my preferences to others and try to make them see it my way--I never do this when discussing guitar or Russian literature (two of my other hobbies/interests). Lots of people seem to do this here--this is not "debate" but rather "arguing" or "evangelism"--people seem to get defensive and even angry sometimes--I used to myself until I realized I wasn't having fun anymore and the whole point of sites like this is to enjoy yourself. This gets back to my original question: is theresomething about Star Wars as a phenomenon or us as fans (as opposed to fans of other things) that leads to this hostillity when discussing something we enjoy? No other internet fan forums that I have been to (and again those would mostly be guitar/music and sports sites) have the kind of hostility that raises itself not only at TF.N, but all the Star Wars sites I know. And their is a lot more to be divisive about when talking about different musical genres or sports rivalries. Yet the level of discussion on the boards always seems less heated and emotional. Maybe Star Wars fans are just more passionate!

 

It's bcause we've allowed are selves to become attached to the films they're a part of our history, personal and otherwise.

 

Setting aside some of the 'hurled elephants' in your post above, the problem with your emotion 'equation' - i.e. "the bashers hate the films"; never mind how such a statement should be qualified - is that it would apply equally to those who "love" or like the films. It's no less true of such individuals that their objectivity is 'compromised' by their affection for or positive view (both emotion-based) of the films, than it is for the other (i.e. 'basher') side. Thus I don't see how one who likes the films should need any less 'justification' for his or her opinion over someone who 'hates' the very same films.....A good example would be this statement:

Two, when talking about the "bashers", you seem to be ignoring the fact that there are NON -fans who have 'problems' with certain - or all - of the Star Wars films, whether they be professional critics or 'casual' movie-goers. The point is, these people should NOT be ignored , because they are as close to being truly 'objective' as one could get.

 

Yeah, maybe you missed the point that the basher trend is just an example of mine, and also that I'm referring solely to emotional responses. If someone likes the films for no reason, like the bashers hate for no reason, then they are just as wrong. Professional critics! Good one. If you're talking about anyone on Rottentomatoes or Metacritic, please stop. Being truly objective is ridding oneself of the temptation to consider any and all visceral reactions as valid criticisms. I should and will ignore anyone's opinion that doesn't use logic and reason in making judgments about the quality of a film.

 

Ahh objective analysis, that is stupid because film is completely 'subjective' anyone who tries to be objective is obviously a mental midget who only thinks of things in black and white terms!

 

To be fair, Toschi acknowledges that they're not completely objective, just as close as humanly possible. The idea that anyone who believes objective analysis of a film is possible is 'mental midget who only thinks of things in black and white terms!" seems to me like nothing more than an assumption and ad-hominem attack though, let alone simply inaccurate as a belief in objectivity and a belief in more nuanced terminology are hardly mutually exclusive.

 

I don't think that anyone here 'missed' that you were clear in only referring to 'bashers' (I'll elaborate next)....

Well, o.k....and isn't it safe to assume that 'emotional response' would play a bigger role in an actual Star Wars fan's assessment of any SW film - in this case, we're talking about a 'basher's' opinion - than say, a non-fan or casual movie goer? (In the sense that a non-fan or casual movie-goer wouldn't have as big an 'investment' or 'stake' in the whole thing as an actual fan would...)

Nice non-sequitur, but I'm afraid it doesn't answer anything...that's an example of the 'elephant hurling' that I was referring to earlier.

Reacting indignantly is not an answer either (and I notice that you had nothing to say about casual movie goers).....

Which then would apply to those who like or love the films as well...

Then, if you were consistent, you would also ignore 'positive' reactions or assessments of the films, as they are no less driven by emotions and 'subjectivity' (Or does this consistency go out the window only when it's your own 'ox' being 'gored'???).

 

They're a great example, and are usually the ones who "care more." The lovey-doveyness of a gusher rarely rivals the hatred of a basher. But keep in mind that whenever anyone ever talks about the nature of bashers, they are automatically talking about gushers as well. Degree, kind, whatever. They're all the same in terms of our discussion.

Yeah, it would. But should it?

What I said was directly related to the discussion. Someone who likes things for no reason is the same as someone who hates things for no reason. I don't consider emotions to be "reasons."

That doesn't add anything either. Casual movie-goers usually base their opinions on emotion as well. But you're the one generalizing the group.

Yep, that's what I said.

Nice strawman, Toschi. Yes, I would also ignore "positive" assessments if they were subjective, and I do. You're beating a dead horse. I already said this in my last post.

 

Yes, I see.

 

I mean that all arguments about bashers not using reason and relying on their emotions also apply to gushers. They're the same thing, but share opposite views. Get it?

 

Another non sequitur.

"Anyone", huh. You'll excuse me then if I came to the conclusion that you were only talking about 'bashers' after reading your post where you mention bashers several times but not once mention gushers...(I share Arawn_Fenn's puzzlement)

I wasn't aware that we were talking about how things 'should' be, rather than how they are .

Very well, but that's no excuse to ignore valid criticism.

Sure it does, unless you have nothing but contempt for casual movie-goers too, when they happen to dislike something that you like (??) Surely, MisterVader, you would want the casual movie-goers to share your 'open-mindedness', too, no?

Anyhow, ignoring valid criticism (or in your case, hurling elephants re: some of the popular critical media) won't make it go away.

Not according to what you said earlier, where you agreed with me that fans would have more emotion-based responses - whether positive or negative - to the SW films than non-fans would, since non-fans do not have as much 'stake' in SW as fans do...

This, coming from someone who, without qualification, says that the bashers "hate the films"....

Actually, no...at least, not until now.

What are you referring to?

Then it would be interesting to see how you deal with your own statements, like for example, where you say that the PT is "better" than the OT, or what have you...

Not quite.

 

And an irrelvant one at that.

I didn't feel I needed to since you picked up on it, but since bashers have attacked me in the past, maybe I only mentioned them out of irrational spite. What's with defending bashers? Wait, don't even answer.

Well, yeah. Should people use their emotions to judge films in a critical manner? I say no. But they have definitely been doing it anyway.

Sure. I'll call it when I see it.

I don't think that most casual movie-goers have disciplined taste in film, nor do I think that most regularly give logical reasons for considering a film to be "good" or "bad." They simply "like" or "dislike" in most cases, presumably. And I've yet to see these valid criticisms.

Moreso, yes. But are they a fan if they hate the films? Are they a fan because they thought the films were good? Are they a fan if they are simply devoted to SW regardless? I guess that if a fan would be, say...someone who is willing to post on a message board like this, then yes, those people would most likely have a more emotional response than a non-fan would. But still, ANYONE could discard their emotions and give an objective assessment if they wanted to.

Is this a joke? If a basher doesn't hate the films, then how could they be a "basher"? Are you implying that people who bash don't hate the films they bash?

I can't remember what I even said, and it's not in the last five posts...
I did agree with you that it equally applies to bashers as it does gushers.

I'm referring to your repeated attempts to put words into my mouth. You insist that I only apply my reasoning to bashers and not gushers, even though I have readily stated over and over again that they're the same kind of animal.

Sure thing. Start shootin', cowboy. Since you know I'm not going to make any emotional appeals, define your criteria for "goodness" and I'll see what I can do.

Yay.

 

Well, it was your observation about gushers vs. bashers that I was referring to...

I 'picked up' that you only mentioned bashers....

I could buy that, perhaps...

I know...god forbid either of us to be fair.

nm

nm

However, aren't these the folks that should be 'won over', as it were?

That was basically my point, yes. Though I still think that the "hate the films" tag is a little harsh...I mean, to start with, do they 'hate' ALL of the SW films?

Which you claim to have never seen...

Like I said above, does the basher 'hate' ALL of the SW films? Do they not vary in which ones they dislike? That's what I meant by the "without qualification" part...

I think you mean "equally applies to gushers as it does bashers" ...

 

I'm excising some loose strands so we can get to the heart of the matter. I hope you don't mind...

If we want it to be a crusade, then yes.

Probably not. But they hate the ones they bash, obviously.

Not quite. I believe I was specifically referring to the all-encompassing "OT is better than PT," but if it didn't come across that way, then that's what I meant.

It depends on the basher.

Oh, brother...It means the exact same thing either way.

1. Who says I even like SW? Well, perhaps even I did earlier. I should have said "I think SW is good." But even then, I didn't specify which ones. I just grouped them all together.

2. My criteria doesn't involve any emotional response (i.e. "This scene made me feel excited. Therefore it is a good scene"), so unless there are other subjective criteria, then no.

3. Me neither. I've also seen very little valid criticism of the films--all six of them. When people point out percieved faults or mistakes in the films, more often than not, they are either based on subjective emotional responses (meaning they have nothing to do with the films as they exist themselves), or they can be reasonably addressed as being justified within the narrative framework of the film in question. If you'd like to make some of your own specific criticisms, then by all means do so. Then again, many of the most insightful criticisms are more focused on analysis and understanding as opposed to forcing a direct assault.

 

I care obviously because I think Star Wars is one of the best stories ever told in the medium of film.

The reason I think that is because Lucas was able to create a story that wasn't about catering to marketing numbers. While he had to deal with the studios on ANH, he was pretty much able to create a situation where he didn't have to answer to anyone else about his creative choices.

As a guy who created the hard to digest THX1138, he found a way to take his less than marketable things he wanted to say about society and present them to the most main stream audience imaginable.

While we keep seeing remakes of TV shows and movies from other eras, and now based on video games of all things, it's nice to have movies that were created from the ground up to be something unique unto itself, even if it borrowed liberally from the cinematic language that came before.

Lucas is my hero for pushing the industry forward when bean counters were always happy with the status quo at great financial and professional risk to himself.

I can't think of anyone who has done more to make film making more attainable to more people around the world than he has.

If it wasn't for him, I doubt that there would be as much artistry in film today as we have.

I think the forces he worked against would have been happy to remake film after film without saying anything new.

Lucas has helped shake things up, and as a result we are left with a much more interesting catalog of cultural storytelling.

 

A perfect summation!

 

Right when I was beginning to doubt myself in deeming Star Wars the premier cinematic monomyth, I happened upon this choice bit from the always provocative Camille Paglia:

On the culture front, fabled film directors Ingmar Bergman and Michelangelo Antonioni dying on the same day was certainly a cold douche for my narcissistic generation of the 1960s. We who revered those great artists, we who sat stunned and spellbound before their masterpieces ? what have we achieved? Aside from Francis Ford Coppola?s Godfather series, with its deft flashbacks and gritty social realism, is there a single film produced over the past 35 years that is arguably of equal philosophical weight or virtuosity of execution to Bergman?s The Seventh Seal or Persona? Perhaps only George Lucas? multilayered, six-film Star Wars epic can genuinely claim classic status, and it descends not from Bergman or Antonioni but from Stanley Kubrick and his pop antecedents in Hollywood science fiction.

As one can imagine, the effect of this was something along the lines of millions of cineaste voices suddenly crying out in terror...and then suddenly silenced (aneurysms, undoubtedly). But if her assessment proves to be on the mark then, to reiterate, ours is a congregation that happens to have a worthy object of devotion.

(I don't subscribe to Salon, but here's a link to the above passage: http://blog.spout.com/2007/08/08/camille-paglia-star-wars-is-a-classic-epic-and-kelly-clarkson-will-save-fine-art/ )

 

I kinda think that the people who don't like Star Wars are the ones who don't get it, or have never seen it. It isn't as widely accepted as guitar, but it's still way more widely accepted and has much more mainstream appeal than stuff like Star Trek, tabletop RPGs, anime, and as much as I hate to mention it alongside the rest, LARPing.

Pretty much, the way I think of it, if you never saw Star Wars as a kid, or you were never into it when it was mainstream, you see it's in space so you write it off as a show for geeks only, or you just have terrible taste.

I have a friend who thinks Star Wars is stupid. Of course, this same friend also hates Led Zeppelin, Bioshock (amazing xbox game), and Scrubs. He loves Harry Potter (oh, but he hates those heretical Harry Potter movies!), spends his life playing Halo (honestly, it was fun as first, but am I not one of the many people sick of that game?) and I caught him listening to the Backstreet Boys. I think it's pretty self-evident that his opinion means jack poo poo.

I love Star Wars so much because it's basically what I grew up on. And they're some fine quality movies. The prequels get a lot of flack, but even Episode I, which is probably the weakest film, is still better than 90% of the stuff you see in the movies.

If somebody hates Star Wars, they're just missing out. I guess they can go watch Harry Potter.

Harry Potter. Fairies and Unicorns. Keep that in mind. They're hurting themselves more than you, folks.

 

I can see not liking Star Wars, but how can you hate Scrubs?

 

A scrub is a guy who can't get no love from me; Hangin out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, tryin to holler at me.

Brilliant song, especially the rhyming of 'me' with 'me'.

 

Why do we care so much? And argue about it?

Because Star Wars is a guilty pleasure, and misery loves company. The more people who are miserably in love, the better.

To be a Star Wars fan, even in the casual way that many of us are, invites some ridicule, no doubt about it. Maybe SW fans feel good when they have more people agreeing with them. If you've ever made a SW joke or reference in the company of non fans, you know what I'm talking about. Rolling eyes, name calling, whatever.

On the flip side of that, Star Wars fans are legion throughout the world. And almost every other day, there's a SW reference in any media at large, be it Jon Stewart, Hillary Clinton, the NY Post, and almost ubiquitous in The Family Guy, The Simpsons, and of course Robot Chicken.

30 years after it's release, Star Wars remains prevalent in the collective conscious. Definitely something worthy of love, and argument.

And on that thought, the original film is the GREATEST film in the entire series to this very day.

 

It reminds me of the brilliant Ms. Avril Lavigne, and how she rhymes 'boy' with 'boy'.
THESE folks should have written the prequels.

 

Actually that one's okay, because the rhyme is more than that. It's "skater boy" (no, I'm NOT going to spell it the other way) and "later boy". It's actually kind of clever and is a big part of why the song is so ****** catchy.

 

It's all Star Wars to me.

I get people sayin' PT sucks or the EU is a bunch of crap to make money. Whatever!

I saw SW when I was in a high chair and I loved it to death. Then the SE came out with more scenes. I saw that as more SW. Then the PT came out and there more SW. The books are awesome because they're approved by Lucas and they continue the saga and develop things in the galaxy that expand it and give it more life. Plus we can do something the SW universe and this website. Check out the fanfics homeboy.

Anyways I love SW and some fans are all uppity but I don't give a &*#@! I love SW and if you down with SW throw up a middle finger and say hell yeah.