Why do you blame this poor Gungan for?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jedi_Learner, Mar 3, 2003.

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  1. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Aw, come on fellas, why'sa you'sa pickin on Ja Ja? :(

    Personally, I wished ALF would have been in the film as originally conceived, but he had to film some infomercials & phone commercials and Yoda wanted to be the only puppet in the film. Yoda's such a diva!

    By the time AOTC came around it was too late, Lucas had gone totally digital and since ALF wasn't CG, ALF got kicked to the curb!

    Poor ALF! :_|
    I hope he can get a part in Men in Black 3!
  2. KosmicKnine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    Yoda's such a diva!

    ROFLMBO!

    [face_laugh]
  3. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    openmind

    I disagree. We wont know for sure, but if you are right, then why did we get a good few minute conversation between Padme and Anakin where they pretty much described the situation, and Padme made it seem like she would not support something that looked like a dictatorship, even if it worked.

    The senate should have sat down and figured out the best way to solve the problems. They were not (they were disagreeing). Anakin would have someone wise force them to do the right thing, but Padme would see that as an awful lot like a dictatorship. Not to mention she was against the creation of a clone army from the start of the movie, and she was only fighting to defend herself in the end. (yes, Jar Jar was not there to hear that conversation, but still)

    We won't know, however, since Padme might be much more reluctant (I would say she wouldn't) to give Palpatine the powers, that may have been part of Palpatines plan. Who else would give it? From anyone else (this is from the novel, but it makes sense), it would look like a way to advance their own carrier. It would not look like they were trying to help the Republic, but help themselves. They needed someone who didn't have an agenda to propose that the powers be given to Palpatine. Since Padme may not have (and since she is strong minded according to Anakin) Jar Jar was the best one for Palpatine to pick on.

    My question is how much did the Republic know? Did they know that the TF had joined the Separitests and that the TF still had their armies? If they knew one way or another, then why didn't they react sooner (aside from Palpatine slowing things down for his own reasons).
  4. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    My question is how much did the Republic know? Did they know that the TF had joined the Separitests and that the TF still had their armies?

    Its clearly in the film that the Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Corporate Alliance et al are discovered by Obi-Wan to be apart of the Separatists. And its a surprise to the Republic representatives in Chancellor Palpatine's office. Which of course means they didn't know anything of this.

    I think the Senate knew that the TF and the other organisations still had their armies but as yet they were unsure of their allegiance since the organisations withdrew themselves from the Republic.
  5. KosmicKnine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    My question is how much did the Republic know? Did they know that the TF had joined the Separitests and that the TF still had their armies?

    Jar Jar: "It's aclear desa seperatists made a pact wesa desa Federation de Trade. So, dellow fellogates, in response to dis direct threat to the Republic, mesa prepose dat de Senate give immediately emergency powers to de Supreme Chancellor."

    I'd say that the whole Senate was briefed on the situation either by Jar Jar or directly before Jar Jar spoke.
  6. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    Thank you for that list KosmicKnine, I wish more people would read it before making baseless accusations against Jar Jar.
  7. KosmicKnine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    Jedi_Learner, I wish more people would give Jar Jar a chance too and realize what a full character he is. I think a large number of the anti-Jar Jar crowd simply heard the way he speaks and immediately counted him out of any potential coolness. I say, big whoop! He comes from an isolationistic society; he wouldn't speak "perfect" modern English. Yes, I had a bit of difficulty the first time I saw TPM understanding what he was saying, but with a bit of effort on my part, I easily adjusted. I personally love the playful innocence that he possesses. He's never mean to anyone. He gives of himself to help the group. Ultimately, he wants the best for everyone, and that's something I deeply respect in a person, be they real or story character.
  8. JediKnightOB1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 5
    KosmicKnine, I agree with most of the things that you wrote about Jar Jar in TPM

    However, there was a little to much of Jar Jar for my liking and most other peoples liking.
    Sure, the children do like Jar Jar but they also liked the Ewoks and that totally ruined RTOJ for me and for others.
    George has explained that "the Ewoks were to show that technology was no match for simple fighting tactics."

    EnforcerSG wrote...
    However, if a mind trick was used on Jar Jar, that would explain everything and make me feel sorry for him.

    No, no, no... the Jedi mind trick only works on the "weak minded" not the "simple minded."

    Jar Jar should have had less of a roll in TPM and a few more lines in AOTC.
    That way once Ep III comes out we can see Jar Jars importance.
    Kind of like George has done with Bail Organa.

    Had George paced his intro of Jar Jar into the Star Wars universe, people would have more sympathy for Jar Jar and he would have made a better impact on the viewers.

    Every kingdom has a "Court Jester."
    Salacious B. Crumb was a jester that we all liked.
  9. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    KosmicKnine. Of the things you mentioned, Jar Jar only intentionally and of his free will did 4, 5, and the AOTC one (maybe not even that last one if the he was tricked). The first he was pressured into it by Qui, the others were luck. The rest were unintentional and made it look like a goofy idiot succeeds just as well as a person who tries. No wonder the Jedi are destroyed when Jar Jar can take out a droid by cowering that the Jedi could not even defeat! Jar Jar to me was a panicky coward who in the films was stronger than those who actually had and used skill. I like to believe that effort is more important than luck (although both are needed).

    In AOTC though, Jar Jar was not too bad. Yeah, he sorta kinda made the Empire, but I still want to say he was tricked into it.

    JediKnightOB1 No, no, no... the Jedi mind trick only works on the "weak minded" not the "simple minded."

    Qui Gon used the force on Jar Jar in the sub in TPM. That is enough for me. It is not a mind trick per say, but it is enough to tell me that the force can be used easily on Jar Jar. There is also no evidence that the force cannot be used on JJ. ;)

    We should probably stop to prevent this from becoming a Jar Jar B/G war.

    Ok, so the republic (before OB1's message) knew that the TF had joined the Separatists. Why didn't they know they had an army? I just don't see what OB1 said that would show that the Separatists would fight that the Republic didn't already know.

    Also, how much did the Republic know about the clones? Everyone kind of sounded surprised that there was a clone army (well, we can assume that no one was letting on that they knew about it, and did the Jedi tell them that the clone army was already there?), but Bail said we need that clone army now?
  10. RogueWompRat Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2003
    star 4
    Love your sig,GrandAdmiralZahn.
    FREE HAT!!!
  11. GrandAdmiralZahn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 1
    The funny thing is we should agree that we disagree. I absolutely dispise JJ and you love him. Big deal. But no one can tell me to like him. I am not trying to get you to hate him. I only stated that he was a complete moron and a pawn and no one disputes this.

    BTW THx RogueWompRat! I hope more people get it! :)
  12. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    I am happy that this topic hasn't been locked or been turned into rubbish. Thank you.
  13. plo_koom Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 5
    Well my theory was that we cant be sure that the clone army is the imperial forces for all we now maybe the clone army rebels against the empire and jarjar was really inadvirtingly slowing down the creation the empire
  14. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    You know Jar Jar is a tragic character,however he is only doing what he belives is the right thing by supporting Palpatine,its really all palpatines fault because he is an evil bastard that willfully manipulated a poor simple minded fellow like Jar Jar Binks knowing that jar jar would support him and cause him to get Emergency Power's,i maintain my point that palpatine was using the force to trick jar jar into asking the Senate to give him power,he used his power to find jar jars weaknesses and then manipulated him by playing off them knowing he would support him.
  15. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    I still don't think Jar Jar was used as a tool because he is supposedly weak minded. He's doing his best as his role as a representative of Padme. Palpatine in front of the Jedi even says its a "radical amendment", fueling the notion (which even makes sense to the Jedi) that it may not be a popular move, it would infact save lives.

    So case in point, Jar Jar is actually a hero and not to blame. There is a difference between him as being a fool and his responsibility. And I think it?s a problem between accepting him as an integral part of the prequels or not. Provided you are in the former, I think Yes, he needs sympathy but at the same time, he had no other choice, and the most sensible thing to do was to propose Emergency Powers.

    Even in TPM, Palpy engineers the turmoil seen in TPM, in particular taxation of trade routes. Furthermore, Palpatine is using everyone as a tool, not only what some people calling weak minded. Padme was not weak minded but she yet she proposed a vote of no confidence, when Valorum was clearly Naboo's "strongest supporter". (or he wouldn?t have sent the Jedi in secret) Padme did it because things were getting from bad to worse for Naboo and that Palpatine said, the alternative would be a plea to the Courts.

    But eventually it didn?t help, till she herself went back to Naboo and took back what was theirs. Clearly though Palpy?s ploy worked he got the Chancellorship, while Naboo was saved all due to Gungans and Padme?s perseverance.

    Everything follows, upto AOTC as well. This was just the next step, while Jar Jar happens to be in the middle of it.

    That's his tragedy so far. He's innocent, unlike Anakin who goes from innocent childhood to being the Emperor's right hand man.
  16. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    That was a good post openmind. :)
  17. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Why thank you, Jedi Learner. Well then, that was for you buddy! :)

    Seriously, Im always looking for the STORY aspect of the saga. Just about everything is for a reason. I pray that GL will continue to stick to his vision and do what he thinks is right for the Saga. Its is HIS story and a great story teller at that.
  18. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry openmind, but I don't agree with you. I still believe that Padme would never give anyone, even in the situation of AOTC, emergency powers. If Palpatine was behind everything, then why did he get rid of Padme?

    That is an assumption though, however maybe a safe one. Jango was the one who was assigned to kill Padme, and he said he was hired by Darth Traynous. Even though Dooku was told to kill her because the Trade Federation wanted her dead, Palpatine probably also give his ok to it.

    Palpatine sent her away for some reason. It was not to make her easier to kill (he didn't seem to know where she was going). Why else other than she would not give him the powers? Maybe it was just keeping up appearances to make it look like he was worried, but I don't think so.

    Even after OB1's message, she still said she wanted a diplomatic solution to the situation (when they landed). I just don't think she would give the powers to Palpatine, even in that situation. That makes Jar Jar to me gullible, or week minded enough to have a mind trik performed on him.

    Also, I believe that Palpatine used the force on Amadila in TPM to get the vote to occur. That is another debate though, and one that I admit I am not on firm ground for believing. It is just that again, she said she didn't want the vote, and then she pressed for the vote. She may have changed her mind, she may not have, we don't know.
  19. KosmicKnine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    Palpatine sent her away for some reason.... Why else other than she would not give him the powers?

    How about because the Jedi wanted her to leave Coruscant and requested Palpatine to help them convince her to go? Palpatine couldn't flat out defy the entire Jedi Order yet; his possition is not that secure.
  20. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    First of all EnforcerG, I can understand your point of view. Infact initially I thought as you did.

    Yes, Padme is against the Military Creation Act, and mainly because if the Separatist feel threatened, then it war can break lose easily. However, it was very clear that the Separatist were going to threatene the Republic anyway. Padme knew that. That's why she decided to go and save Obi Wan. Her anti-military stance is pointless now, since the Separatist are already attacking Obi Wan, which shows they are not going to sit and wait.

    You must realize that having a Military was of utmost importance now. Padme would have no choice, but to propose. She is not going to blame Jar Jar in anycase. He did the right thing. We as the audience know more about the future, but to the STORY of the prequels, this was the only option.

    You have a good point about Padme, still wanting to use diplomacy, to AVOID War, if possible. That's her hope but she eventually answered Anakin point about a diplomatic solution, for which she gladly remarked about agressive negotiations. Which I am sure in normal circumstances she would be entirely against. However its too late for that, and she knows it.

    The situation for the galaxy is indeed dire, we can see that. The Clone Wars have begun.

  21. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Kosmic

    How about because the Jedi wanted her to leave Coruscant and requested Palpatine to help them convince her to go? Palpatine couldn't flat out defy the entire Jedi Order yet; his possition is not that secure.

    Are you sure it happened that way? I don't have the DVD on hand, but I thought the jedi agried with Palpatine when he said she should go back. Not the jedi saying she should go and Palpatine going along with them.

    openmind

    You do bring good points, but the fact is that we won't really know unless the great flanel god lets us in on what he intended.

    What diplomatic solutions were tried? Obviously they would not have tried very hard, but I got the impression that nothing was done, and until something was done, I still don't think Padme would move to try to get a droid army.

    Also, I am not sure exactly what I am arguing. I don't know if I am arguing 'would Padme have acted to get the republic an army?' or 'would Padme have given Palpatine emergency powers?' They are diffrent arguments, or are they?

    OB1 said that they were making a droid army, but didn't the republic already know that the TF had a driod army and that the TF joined the seperatests?

    Arg, a while ago I thought of a big plot hole when watching AOTC, it was not the one of why wasn't the senate suspicious of instant clones, but another one that would make the republic to blame for a lot of what happened, and I forget what it was. That is why I keep asking question about what did the republic know, to try to find a reason why not to blame Jar Jar.
  22. hoth-nudist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2000
    star 3
    Jarjar is a waste of storytelling, just a marketing scheme, totally off the wall. It would have been just as well if GL had included his version of the teletubbies in the PT(With his current taste and vision, Im surprised he has'nt). Luca$ trying to including jarjar in important situations in the PT and for the entire saga, just rubs against the grain. I used to think Jarjar took the luster off watching the wonderful OT, knowing that orange waste of flesh took a major part in the intitial action of the stormtroopers. It doesnt bother me much any more because jarjar to me is NOT Star Wars. So I dont necessarily blame jarjar, just GL's aweful writing and ideas.
  23. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    You know, I'm not going to let your post be the final word on this issue, which was off-topic and didn't discuss the issue at hand. I'm rising this topic for certain people to read.
  24. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    I agree with whoever said Jar Jar is the equivalent of Threepio... Both serve the same purpose, except Jar Jar has much more importance in TPM than Threepio ever had.
  25. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    Some people are still making unfounded claims that Jar Jar Binks should blame himself for the rise of the Empire. Still, when your hate runs high, your not going to reason with common sense and a clear mind, are you?
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