why do you hate EU?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Kingpin, Aug 14, 2002.

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  1. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    Commander Antilles:

    I'll wager you $50 you can't find a single piece of evidence that Lucas has ever declared the EU canon. Go away and read the relevant info again.

    I'll wager you the same $50 that Lucas never explicitly says that the EU is NOT canon, either.

    And there is one ambiguous quote by a Lucasfilm Licensing (note it's Licensing) book editor, in an EU publication. Set that against the comments from Lucas, Steve Sansweet, and other sources, and it looks like a pretty shaky statement to cling to.


    1. LFL's quote is not ambiguous. I can quote it for you, if you like. They *explicitly* say "anything with a Star Wars label that does not have an Infinities symbol is canon. That's pretty clear-cut to me. It basically says:
    Anything with a Star Wars label that does not have an Infinities symbol is canon.
    2. Sansweet is not part of the continuity department. Chris Cerasi and Sue Rostini are. Thus, anything Sansweet says is simply his own personal opinion, and carries no merit.
    3. "...and other sources". My, isn't that ambiguous. Care to elaborate? I can randomly namedrop, too. Doesn't actually *prove* anything, though.

    EU fans also overexaggerate the importance of their opinions too. I mention no names...

    In case you missed it in every post I've made in this thread, I have downplayed ALL opinions, including my own. I even said "My own opinion does not matter", and "all opinions are equal, and they all mean nothing in a canon debate".
    So before you go lumping me in with other people who may or may not misunderstand the importance of opinions, I suggest you actually read/cite my posts. Thank you.

    Lord_Hydronium:

    nobody has to accept it as part of anyone's continuity.

    Bingo! Right on the head. Nobody is forcing you to like or accept the EU. You can ignore it all you want.
    However, when it comes down to a canon/continuity debate, Purist opinions are irrelevant, as are Completist opinions. You can ignore the EU all you want, and that's great and wonderful, but it doesn't alter the official statements by LFL in the slightest.
    THAT is my point.
    My other point is, you can dislike the EU all you want, and nobody is asking you to change that (if you actually go back and read all my posts, not once do I tell any Purist to change their views of the EU, or that their views are "bad" or "wrong"). However, by preaching your view to us over and over, you're essentially asking us to change ours.
    Like I said before, we know your view. Repeating it to us isn't actually going to accomplish anything.

    According to you, however, I have to accept that as part of the Star Wars universe.

    No, according to me, LFL's statement stands. Just like the Deep South people, though, you can ignore it. Just when you go preaching it to other people, don't be surprised when people think you're wrong.

    The Completists have LFL on their side. The facts stand. The opinions are mutually exclusive of the facts. If you don't realize/understand this, then you didn't understand my "Amendment" example illustrating this point.

    I believe that the evidence in the movies clearly indicates that stormies are clones

    And you're entitled to that opinion. Just like in my opinion, you're wrong. And that's my opinion, plain and simple.

    To me, it's like if an EU book came out that said that Palpatine and Sidious were two different people (once again, I'm not saying that this would actually happen, since the prequel EU seems to fit well into movie continuity). Should I throw out common sense and a logical conclusion because an author says something else?

    Well, Lucas himself said that Sidious and Palpatine were the same person, if I recall correctly. I know he did it in an interview, and I'm reasonably sure it's somewhere on the Episode 1 DVD. Just some FYI.

    You are telling me that if I do not accept the EU as canon, I am wrong.

    No, I'm telling you that reality operates independently of your opinion. In your opinion, the EU is not canon. Your opinion
  2. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    The only redeeming thing to come out of the EU was the first three Zahn novels, all excellent novels, the rest of them, trash.
  3. CountBakufu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2001
    star 2
    I have only ready 2 books, Splinter of the Minds Eye and Jedi Search(when released) and I thought Minds' Eye was good but can't remember JS being great.
    Anybody have a reccomendation?
  4. chissdude10 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    Once again we are back on opinions, No? To say you like or don't like somthing.

    CB, I would be happy to provide recomendations. If you like action, and space battles, try the Black Fleet Crises Series. Also try reading The Thrawn Trilogy, starting with Heir to the Empire I also suggest going into the literature forum index(Theres a link in the Lit forum) to see the different novels and their orders.
  5. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    I'll wager you the same $50 that Lucas never explicitly says that the EU is NOT canon, either.

    No one's said that he has. You actually claimed that Lucas said that EU was canon.

    Read my definition of "parallel universe" above. You can see my stance on the EU's role in Star Wars "history", based on Lucas's "parallel universe" comment.

    Well, Lucas himself said that Sidious and Palpatine were the same person, if I recall correctly. I know he did it in an interview, and I'm reasonably sure it's somewhere on the Episode 1 DVD. Just some FYI.

    Lucas also said "I always knew stormtroopers were clones", but everyone always seems to forget that little statement...

    No, I'm telling you that reality operates independently of your opinion. In your opinion, the EU is not canon. Your opinion does not matter. The facts regarding EU and canon stand, regardless of your opinion. You can hold your opinion until the end of the world, though, and clearly reality will not change that; just like your opinion will not change reality.

    Common sense tells us that Han and Leia would get married right after ROTJ. Common sense tells us that the Greedo Anakin wrestled with was the same Greedo that Han killed. Common sense tells us that Obi-Wan and Owen are not brothers, in any way, shape, or form. Your "facts" tell common sense to go take a flying leap.

    It is a fictional universe. There are no "facts".

    It is entirely a matter of opinion. According to you, people who only watch the movies and assume Han and Leia get married very soon after are wrong. The guy behind me in the theater who pointed out the clonetroopers to his son, saying "Look, stormtroopers!" is wrong. These people are not using any other source, just deductive skills and reasoning. Are you really trying to say that those things take a backseat to some author's, ahem, opinion? Is logic really that unimportant?

    It's not the EU so much that I have a problem with, it's that kind of attitude.

    So... basically what you're telling me is, you can't differentiate between fact and opinion. Did I get that much right?


    If you were trying give an example there of what kind of attitude I was talking about, you did wonderfully.

    This thread needs to be locked.
  6. Dark_Jedi_Kam Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 5
    ok for all you Mara Jade haters who say she isn't Cannon. Next time you watch RotJ, when Leia brings Chewie into Jabba's Palace. you'll see that woman in the Maroon spandex slinking away for her. that's Mara Jade. She's in the movie, there for she's Cannon.
  7. New_York_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 6
    Zahn's trilogy is pretty good, IMHO. So is Truce at Bakura.
  8. chissdude10 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    Common sense tells us that Han and Leia would get married right after ROTJ. Common sense tells us that the Greedo Anakin wrestled with was the same Greedo that Han killed. Common sense tells us that Obi-Wan and Owen are not brothers, in any way, shape, or form. Your "facts" tell common sense to go take a flying leap.

    Common sense tells me your incredibly fundemental about Lucas's mouth, and that you are not willing to even look farther for fear the EU can work in.

    A "brother" is a term many inner city residents use for someone of the same heritage, meaning, they could be from the same planet.

  9. New_York_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 6
    wow, i'm an, and i quote,"pseudo-intellectual, hypocritical, self-absorbed, self-righteous, intolerant, over-pampered, immature, small-minded, trivial, egotistical ********." Its amazing that someone so stupid like me can use a keyboard or use the internet!
  10. Dark_Jedi_Kam Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 5
    Saying that han and Leia would get married right after ROTJ is ridculos to me. They had a rocky relationship for 5 years. They're smart people. they need to wait and make sure they and handle each other when they're not in a alife or death situation.
  11. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    Okay guys, let's cool down a bit. If you're just going to senselessly bash and not respect each other's opinions, then go somewhere else.

    Thanks.

  12. ADMIRALSPUZZUM Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 4
    Well, the whole brother thing is understandable, especially if you don't belive Hobbie dies in ESB (see page 67 of the novelization.) And anyway, that was written before the PT.

    It's just another example of the fact that you absolutly DO NOT have to take anything in EU seriously, if you choose to do so.
  13. Jedi_Satimber Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2002
    star 8
    Griffz is right....I think that the long drawn out bashing has got to slow down..we were doing so good too.
  14. Sreya Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 2
    ok for all you Mara Jade haters who say she isn't Cannon. Next time you watch RotJ, when Leia brings Chewie into Jabba's Palace. you'll see that woman in the Maroon spandex slinking away for her. that's Mara Jade. She's in the movie, there for she's Cannon.


    Mara Jade wasn't created until Zahn started writing his first book... the EARLIEST we can even guess that to be would be 1989.

    Return of the Jedi was released in 1983. So, unless Tim Zahn had a time machine, jumped back to preproduction and talked George Lucas into adding this character when GL wouldn't know TZ from Adam, that is NOT Mara Jade.

    It's just some extra in a spandex suit.

    Why this is posted in a thread title "why do you hate the EU?" is beyond me.

    Sreya
  15. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    For the record, Mara Jade is not in the film. Check out the SW CCG card, "Arica". THAT is who Mara Jade is "supposed" to be when she's in Jabba's palace, and the Arica card is played by Shannon Baksa, and the card was specifically made for the CCG. Even the Star Wars Insider magazine admits that "Mara Jade" is not on-camera in RotJ, even if she's intended to be present at Jabba's palace.

    Lord_Hydronium:

    Read my definition of "parallel universe" above. You can see my stance on the EU's role in Star Wars "history", based on Lucas's "parallel universe" comment.

    So you're presuming to know Lucas' usage of the phrase "parallel universe"?
    Just so we're both on the same page on the subject.

    Lucas also said "I always knew stormtroopers were clones", but everyone always seems to forget that little statement...

    ...only because I didn't know about that statement. Care to cite it for me, and tell me where I can read it for myself?

    Common sense tells us that Han and Leia would get married right after ROTJ. Common sense tells us that the Greedo Anakin wrestled with was the same Greedo that Han killed. Common sense tells us that Obi-Wan and Owen are not brothers, in any way, shape, or form. Your "facts" tell common sense to go take a flying leap.

    Well, common sense isn't that common.

    You're defining "common sense" by your own standards. Your own opinions. Common sense could say that a stray stormtrooper shoots Han in the back of the head just after the celebration party on Endor (since I doubt the Ewoks killed EVERY trooper), and thus he's dead, and can't get married.

    We're back to that whole thing on fact vs opinion. You've basically cited a bunch of your own opinions.
    You keep telling me, indirectly, that you can't differentiate between fact and opinion. Why is that?

    It is a fictional universe. There are no "facts".


    Ah, but you're wrong.
    Tell me, when I say the phrase "in-universe, as compared to out-of-universe", what does that mean to you?

    Canon IS the basis of facts.
    - the Rebel Alliance destroyed two Death Stars. Fact.
    - Vader is Luke's father. Fact.
    - Obi-Wan trained Anakin Skywalker. Fact.
    - Luke is Leia's sister. Fact.

    So we're back to you being unable to differentiate fact and opinion. At first, you showed us all that you couldn't recognize an opinion when you saw it. Now you've come around 180 degrees and you're showing that you can't recognize facts, either.

    It is entirely a matter of opinion.

    ...except for when we're presented with facts, such as statements by LFL. You can ignore the statements as much as you'd like, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

    According to you, people who only watch the movies and assume Han and Leia get married very soon after are wrong. The guy behind me in the theater who pointed out the clonetroopers to his son, saying "Look, stormtroopers!" is wrong.

    No, I didn't say that. DO not presume to speak for me, ever. Have I made myself clear?
    If you want to speak for me, QUOTE me.

    The people who say some of the above statements may be considered "uninformed". Sounds to me like the people who make example statements like you made above may not know of the EU. Thus, if an EU follower says "Well, in these sources, _____ happens", the uninformed person may happen to listen.
    As opposed to a Purist, who already made up in their mind that the EU sucks (for whatever personal opinion they've formed) and therefore utterly ignore all of it. But all they're doing is ignoring it -- it doesn't mean it isn't fact or true.
    That's the difference between the Purist who ignores stuff because he/she "doesn't like it", and the casual fan who simply doesn't know the EU data.
    For example, if I'm in a debate, and someone brings to my attention that book X says _____ about the topic I'm discussing, I'll say "oh, cool. I didn't know that". I don't say "Oh, it didn't happen, because I didn't read it". I become informed. Many fans become informed. The guy at the movie theatre with his son who assum
  16. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
  17. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    You know what?

    I'm going to say something, here, and I know it's going to piss many people off. But by now, I could give a toss. In fact, I'm just going to sidestep all of the "movies-versus-books-versus-everything-else" that we're all so accustomed to, and talk simply in other contexts.

    Bratzilla, I don't think that you're a "Purist" at all. I don't think that you are a fan of the films. In fact, I don't even think that you are the hardcase Lucas-worshipper that you so carefully paint yourself to be.

    You're only a meek opportunist, seeking for a way to create a big name for yourself in a fandom sect that has become both larger and increasingly Balkanized, long before you ever set your two diseased feet in this discussion forum.

    You seem to be someone whom has been desperately in search of an identity for herself, someone whom has not yet found their proper niche in the world. Pinochet and Hitler also were two of these personality-types. But -- for our purposes -- you sauntered along one day and saw a smallish battle being waged between two sides, and seized and subverted the ideology of one side in order to forge a completely new role for yourself.

    Only thing is, you've taken it to unheard-of extremes, in your apparent zealotry, which is only a facade. You don't care, one way or the other, which side "wins." This whole dispute only concerns you about as far as you can go about spreading your own unique widdle brand-name of chaos, insegrevious amphibian munchkin that you are.

    You're doing a grave disservice to many others, who -- although purists at heart -- at least make some attempt at reconciling the two sides together, and at living peacefully with one another. Which, I believe, is one of the core tenets at the heart of George Lucas's filmaking, which you allegedly profess to hold in esteem equal to that which Hindus look upon the Vedic Scriptures.

    For such a hardline "canonist," you seem to have forgotten Qui-Gon Jinn's little parable to young Skywalker about trying to live together for mutual advantage. You might check the film out again, sometime. Because you certainly haven't taken anything that George has tried to say very seriously at all. And this fatuous "superficial omniscience" you and your pathetic lickspittles would like everyone to believe you possess is only as great as the sources available through my local library and inter-library loans desk.

    By your own actions, you're undermining the utter foundations of all that his films stand for. But I suppose that this is all beside the point to you, eh, you squamously bletcherous poltrane with delusions of sapience? For myself, I take pride in knowing that addlepated avant-poseurs like yourself will not have any long-term impact upon fandom; and educating the unwashed, and watching them get offended over their own stupidity, is the only way some of us incompetents ever get to feel superior to anyone.

    But right now, it feels terrific.

    Don't want to get too over-redundant, here, but redundancy can't be over-redundanted when dealing with an insegreviously bletcherous codswallop of this magnitude.

    I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but they're cooked. If you genuinely think of Expanded Universe fen as "apologists," and aren't just trolling for horse-laughs, I shudder to think of the mental landscape you must inhabit. No one but YOU is impressed with you or your opinions, and life is too short to bother with kids like you; your sort are the reason that killfiles were invented, because you're just not worth wrangling with.

    The proof is in the pudding, and your pudding is smeared all over the walls.
  18. ADMIRALSPUZZUM Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 4
    Wow. I think it's time for this to be closed, yes? comparing people to Hitler and Pinochet is a little over the top don't you think?
  19. Daughter_of_Yubyub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2002
    star 6
    Alright, with that in mind, please justify:
    - this thread's existance (seeing as how it has turned into an attack on EU fans as well as the EU itself)


    Danged if I know. What I was actually saying in a round about way was "Why the heck is this thread still open?"
  20. chissdude10 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
  21. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    Leto, I'm sorry, but your entire post made no sense to me. No offense or anything. I simply had NO idea what you were saying, or trying to say.
  22. Kwenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2001
    star 5
    I have to admit that these EU debates are getting a tad boring too. It's always the same; purists begin with some resemblance of an argument against the EU, and we counter it with quotes, followed by more quotes from the Purists. Then someone brings 'canon' into the debate, which is when the poodoo really hits the fan.

    So stop it. Civilized beings are we, not this crude matter, to para-phrase the 'lil guy.
  23. Jedi Merkurian ST Manager on Temporary Leave

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Leto, [face_shocked] dude! One bad turn does not deserve another.
  24. WellKnownCharacter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 2
    Personally my hate for the EU comes from the way (in my eyes) it tarnishes the saga.
    E.G
    Why do I care that Luke restored his father to the lightside and stood up to palpatine when a couple of years later he turns anyway!
    Some EU I can stand.
    Usually my rule is if it takes place during the timespan of the movies it has the possibility to be okay.
    Such as DARTH MAUL:SHADOW HUNTER. It takes place like a day before the Phantom Menace and is relevant to the films.
    SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE. Between Empire and Jedi so the events of it DO have significance.

    I also don't mind the thrawn trilogy because (for me) that is all the extension I want when it comes to beyond the movies.
    What I dont like is the BS that takes place YEARS after the saga, which doesnt even feature the main character(Anakin) and basically pisses me off beause its saying 'despite the fight that our heroes went through their journeys and restored peace to the galaxy they still have to fight the empire and suffer.'
    If its relevant to the films then I can choose to accept it but the majority of post-Jedi is like poo-doo to me.
  25. New_York_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 6
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