why do you hate EU?

Nichos, this has taken off so quickly, that as I write something, it is being answered by someone else......it is crazy. It is making my head hurt even more.

 

pale imitations of SW

Again, you presume to know the mind and will of GL?

 

*quote I had in my sig a while back*

"Just as the majority is forbidden from imposing itself on the minority, so the minority must not impose itself on the majority."

Okay. Everyone's arguing about whether they think the EU sucks or not. Or whether the EU is canon or not. While I admire that nearly all of these arguments are being backed up by facts, what's the point? Some people accept the EU. Some people don't. So what's the problem? Could we please just realize that just because someone doesn't think as you do, its not your responsibility to change their way of thinking? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whatever it may be.

So can we just agree to disagree and get over it already?

 

Here's a post by Darth_Holliday, who's written many parodies of the EU as well as "rewriting" the prequel trilogy, tongue-in-cheek, using EU characters and plots:



The thing that bothers me most is this...the first thing EU crusaders jump to is saying that we haven't read the books.

How arrogant is that? If you don't like the EU, the only explanation is that you haven't read it? Huh? I guess it's impossible to conceive that maybe someone just didn't like it. Yeah, it's possible to be a SW fan and not like the EU. Shocking.

Oooh...and let me guess...we just haven't read the "right" EU books, and you've got some wonderful recommended literature for us. Or maybe...come back to the EU, it's changed, honest...it's changed, baby...it won't abuse you no more....just give it one more chance! Would this be the new EU with the giant third long-lost son of Palpatine with lightsabers embedded throughout his body? Or is it the new Imperial copy of Darth Vader who wears a breathing mask? Or the newest race of apostrophe-laden aliens who exist "outside the Force" and come from "beyond the Outer Rim"?

As others have pointed out, we HAVE read the books. A lot of them. At least most of us who intensely dislike the EU. Why else would we complain about it? Just for the heck of it? Don't believe me? I have a whole section in my closet full of EU books that I bought back in the early ninteties. I've never counted them, but there's got to be at least twenty novels, plus some comics. Yeah, I wasted my money on it. And I kept doing it for a while. It's a pain known by many. I did it for the same reason everyone did--there was no new Star Wars at the time and everybody wanted more. Most of us here became disillusioned with the EU at some point.

Who are you to pronounce that we haven't read the EU? Are you omniscient? And yeah...it's full of crappy mistakes and contradictions. The continuity "fixes" are NOT wonderful exercises in logic...they're like trying to hold together a broken-down automobile with duct tape. The EU is full of lameness beyond belief. There are long lists of grievances, but you know what? We don't have to re-state them on the spot just because someone demands to know why we don't like the EU as much as he/she does. Read the thread if you really want to know. Believe me, you haven't said anything that hasn't been said before. Too long for your tastes? Sorry...it is a long thread. I don't want to search through it any more than you do, so I'm not going to link to a specific page. Maybe you should go to SOTJ and see the reasons people dislike the EU there if you want a real quick answer. But generally:

1) It undermines events, characters, and concepts from the films.

e.g. Luke turning to the Dark Side, Boba Fett coming back from the dead, Emperor Palpatine coming back from the dead, the Empire going on for twenty years after Palpatine's death, Anakin's sacrifice and the entire prophecy being essentially meaningless, and so on.

2) It introduces concepts that don't belong in the GFFA.

e.g. aliens immune to the Force like the Yuuzhan Vong, Force/Jedi 'get out of jail free cards' like ysalamiri or lightsaber-proof armor, soul transfers, Emperor's Hands, etc.

3) It is bland, repetitive science fiction not deserving of the title STAR WARS.

e.g. What's the difference, honestly, between the Black Fleet Crisis, the Ssi-Ruuk invasion, the invasion of the long-lost Thrawn fleet, and the Yuuzhan Vong invasion? Ask yourself how many EU works have the word dark in the title? (Here's a hint...it's in the twenties).

4) It introduces some of the most grating pet characters known to man. Meanwhile, the REAL characters never act consistent to the way they do in the films or even the way they do in the previous EU book.

e.g. Mara Jade, Kyppie Duron. e.g. Drunken Han, or Baby-Raising Palpatine

5) It DOES NOT MAKE SENSE--it contradicts both itself and the films.

e.g. The many origins of the Death Star, the many thieves of the Death Star plans, the many losses o

 

i hope you dont mind if i dont read all that

the Empire going on for twenty years after Palpatine's death

you thik they are just going to turn over and play dead?

The many origins of the Death Star, the many thieves of the Death Star plans

you assume that everything about the DS was explained in AotC. when?

Han's a General, now he's a Captain, now he's a General, now a Captain, now a General, and so on.

example plz. General in NR Army, then Captain of his private ship

e.g. Death Star=Sun Crusher=Death Star Prototype=World Devastator=Eclipse Star Destroyer=Galaxy Gun=Whatever the hell that thing was from the Corellia trilogy

the emporer had alot of toys.

Or how 'bout these two words: DASH RENDAR

hey, you cant blame a guy for having talent. henestly, he is about the only non jedi/force user of his caliber in the Galaxy

 

How about "pale imitations of SW written by authors who care more about their obnoxious Gary Stus and Mary Sues than Lucas's characters"?

Seriously, though...the Luke/Han/Leia Trifecta had long ago reached a point where their characters could only be developed so much further. Hence, the need to concentrate upon other characters. It's a big galaxy. And there are trillions of other persons' lives to be chronicled, not just the film characters.

And consider this: if they HAD simply focused upon the Three Musketeers ad nauseum during these past few years, it seems rather apparent to me that the fan community would now be tearing LFL a Collective New One for being excessively redundant in their characterizations, rather than allowing fresh, new characters to take stage center, and give the film characters room to breathe. There's nothing wrong with this. And, were I the editors, I'd rather be gigged for developing completely new persons not seen in the films from whole-cloth, than for allowing the Lucas-created ones to be worn out.

 

Yeah, don't you know, the ENTIRE Imp fleet was at Endor.


Shelley (there, I spelled it right), you still haven't answered my questions: Do you presume to know what is and isn't GL's vision for SW? Do you presume to know what is in GL's mind?

And something I've always wondered about your "rubber stamp approval" line: Are you saying that GL is a puppet? A corprate shill? A tool who doesn't even bother to run his own company?

 

I can't read all of it myself....but might I say this:

If I don't like something I won't watch or read or play it.

I got to the point were he said that we read a lot of the EU, and I said to myself, why are people who don't even like the EU, spending $6 a book (in the USA) on something that they do not like? There is somewhere near more than 50 novels alone....that is a lot of wasted money, IMO.

 

shelley, i think lucas means 'parallell' in the sense that they are not film - not that they are an actual alternate universe of star wars, which is what you seem to imply.

i hope you're not lying to us about some of what you say lucas has said.


please stop with the whole 'speculative fiction' rubbish.

you say you write fanfiction - i sense a bitterness that you don't get to continue the star wars saga and these random authors do.

just to make my POV clear. i'll read EU when i can, it's all cannon cos lucas says so. some of it sucks so i pretend it doesn't exist cos they're mostly stand-alone stories with which i can do that. i don't think the characters are as good as the movie ones with the exception of thrawn.

 

One more thing before I go.....isn't parallel/alternate universe mean the opposite of the reality universe? Meaning what is good in one is evil in the other, and viceversa.

 

Hm, well, there appears to be a lot of opinion-slinging going on here.

Shelley, in your large post where you delineate 10 points about why you don't like the EU, you DO realize that those are all opinions, yes? They have no bearing on whether or not the EU is canon or part of the continuity. They are merely your opinion. I don't hold you at fault for holding that opinion. I expect you not to hold me (or anyone else who supports the EU) at fault for holding theirs.

I DO hold you at fault for preaching your opinion as if it's fact, or as if it means something. It's not, and it doesn't. I DO hold you at fault for trying to impose your opinion on others, as if other people's opinions are worthless. In a canon debate, ALL opinions, purist and completist, are worthless; they have no bearing on whether or not the EU is canon.
In a discussion over whether or not a given person likes the EU, it is 100% opinion, and everyone's opinion is equal. This thread's question is in essence asking for an opinion. Everyone here is entitled to give their opinion, and nobody should be expected to be berated/harassed/belittled for holding their opinion.

I don't hold it against you for disliking the EU. Whatever you want, really. "Diff'rent squids for diff'rent kids". You can hate the EU as much as you want. I couldn't care less. And honestly, I don't think many EU supporters care much, either (but I won't presume to speak for them). Shouting it at us, and going into extreme detail about how much you hate the EU and why everyone else should, too, serves literally no purpose. You're trying to impose your opinion on everyone, which makes you seem aggressive and belligerent, and you're simply repeating yourself. "You don't like the EU". Okay, that's nice. Good for you. We all got it the first time. It was self-evident. No need to preach it anymore.

Also, it DOES beg the question, how much of the EU do Purists read? As was stated a few posts up, if Purists don't like the EU, why do they keep buying it? DO they keep buying it? Do they expect to "get lucky" one day and buy the "Holy Grail" of EU that is "perfect" (in their opinion) and redeems the other 2,000 other EU sources they squandered their money on and hated?
I mean, think about it. How "arrogant" is it to assume that Purists haven't read much of the EU?
99% of the time, Purists I've dealt with *weren't* well-versed in the EU, and *didn't* know what they're talking about. The vast majority of the time, the Purist comes off looking ignorant and stupid for trying to "belittle" something they know nothing about.

There's an awesome quote that I live by:
"There's a difference between talking about something, and knowing what the h*ll you're talking about".
Many Purists don't understand this. They'd rather bash the EU, without actually comprehending what they're saying.

Well, I think I'll step off my soapbox now.

 

FYI, the above post by Shelley is a repost of something written by Darth_Holliday in the Exploited Universe thread. It was written after a particularly bitter attack on the ExU, a debate that lasted several pages and derailed the thread (which is designed to be a humor thread, not a debate thread). In order to reduce this sort of thing, DH put all the points of why he doesn't like EU into one large post, which was later turned into a separate post in SW Misc. Shelley then reposted it here as a quick way of expressing her (?) opinion on EU without rewriting all the ideas expressed within.

 

Wow, this thread grew fast

Oh, and go Shelley!

 

OK I have been following this thread and its time for my 2 cents.

I was standing at Comic Con International with my girlfriend at some booth that had EU novels (New Jedi Order, I think) and she, knowing how much I love Star Wars, pointed them out to me. I replied that the EU was not my cup of tea and I wasn't into buying them. At that point I was accosted by a rabid fan who wanted to know why I didn't like the EU and then we proced to get into a discussion (read Arguement) about why the EU is so good and why I was wrong for not considering it part of the Star Wars canon.

I personally don't like it, but that doesn't mean that it has no merit. I just gave up on the stuff that was happening to the characters I loved and found it quite ludricious. I don't want to know what happens after ROTJ.

But that's the great thing about the SW universe. It's a wonderful mystical place that some people (not me) want to explore.

 

Shelley that was Fantastic!!!!
prolly 1 of the best posts i ever saw here
thx for getting it back , couldnt find it anymore
ya the good ole Darth_Holiday

I got 20+ EU books myself
and i think TTT and a few others r quite well written
tho i allways keep in mind that it is the "Parallel Universe"
when i look at one of the Movies i totally forget that EU excists at all

 

Rabid EUer? Get a rabies shot quick.


Shelley that was Fantastic!!!!
prolly 1 of the best posts i ever saw here

Not even her post. It's just a retread. Anyway, she still hasn't answered my questions.

And 'parallel' doesn't mean 'seperate' or 'different'.

 

Though I always keep in mind that "Parallel Universe" doesn't mean "Alternate Universe".

 

yes, GL never said Parallel was different, but you might think so if oyu want too, subjectivly of course.

 

Well actually i think its ment to be Alternate
Example : Lucas would have painted the "Mona Lisa"
then he makes a copy of it and others can do with it (the copy)what they want (paint a beard or mustache , or add glasses)

thats how i see the difference between Cannon and EU

 

Yes, a "cannon" is an instrument of war. The "EU" is the official continuation of SW.

And that analogy isn't accurate. Let's say GL mad the Mona Lisa. The EU tells what happened with Mona later on in life.

 

I am sorry to intrude here, but I would just like to put in my 2 cents about something lots of people who only like the movies say. "When the DS2 blew up, and Palps died, then the Empire would have fallen apart and the rebels would have replaced it with the Republic." This is the most brainless thing I have heard in my life. You have a galaxy spanning empire. It takes MANPOWER, GOVERNMENT and a MILITARY to controll it. So, you have the Emperor and his personal fighting force and a superweapon. They are destroyed, yes? So what? There is still a government. There is still a military. You can't controll the galaxy with 30+ ships. You might do that on earth, but even then, if you are at war, you need to maintenance these ships which takes time, and if your not building new ships, then you will end up with nothing pretty quick. In the government, you might have a power struggle for a month or two, in which time you would emerge with a leader. The Empire would not have fallen because the King is Dead, nor because his personal enforcer boys are dead too. Now, that is all reason. So, even if you think the EU is crap, concievably, the Empire would NOT have fallen on that day. The Rebel Alliance would still have a long way to go. Just had to say it, thanks for listening.

 

Well actually i think its ment to be Alternate

PPOR

It's great how all these people seem to know exactly what Lucas means and exactly what he is thinking.

 

hate to tell you, but that 'Mona Lisa' analogy has nothing to do with this.

lucas never said Alternate, according to Purist cruch quote, he says Parallel

i love assumptions, so of my favs:
1. Stormtroopers are clones
2. The empire died with the Emporer
3. The entire Imperial fleet was at endor
4. those big insect like creatures conceptualized, designed, and built the DS

 

It really is amazing Nichos.

Go Lance!

 

ADMIRALSPUZZUM:

That's a really brilliant point, about how even defeating the military (whatever percentage was there) and killing the leader wouldn't result in the downfall of the government. It would simply generate a power vacuum (as is what happens in the EU, FYI).
Damn, I wish I'd thought of that point.

Also, I didn't realize that Shelley's post was a re-post of an earlier statement by someone else. That's good to know, so I can't hold her accountable for anything she quotes (or mis-quotes).
But my points in my response message still stand.