why do you hate EU?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Kingpin, Aug 14, 2002.

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  1. Dark_Jedi_Kam Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 5
    1. i never said YOU were being rude

    2. I'm hear because i'm curious why people hate it too. I just like people to be civil on the boards because if their not it scares newbies away.
  2. Jedi_Satimber Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2002
    star 8
    well, I must say, that it has taken me so long to read what has transpired since I left work yesterday, that I have forgotten alot of what I was going to say.

    I must say that there have been some very good points said, and on the flip side, some very bad points.

    I think that what needs to be said here is that the EUDF only seeks to understand that you have a reason that is not just bogus BS.

    I want to say this: the only reason that I now read novels, is because of the EU. I had read a total of 4 books in my life thru the age of 21. I turn 29 later this year, and I read novels now, not just all of the EU, but other books as well. I will now say that I have read maybe close to 100 books. And it is all because of the EU. I now can understand what spark your imagination gets from reading.

    I for one, just want to make sure that you are honest about the topic.

    That is all I am going to say for now.
  3. Kingpin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2002
    star 2
    thnk you for clarifying your standpoint. it wasn't clear in your previous posts dark_jedi_kam, and i am sorry that i cannot stop people from being rude on my thread.
  4. Dark_Jedi_Kam Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 5
    It's cool Kingpin.

    I have to agree with Jedi_Satimber. between the 14 and 21 I read 4 novals, all Anne Rice.
    I'm now 25 and have read over 100 books because of the EU.
  5. Kingpin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2002
    star 2
    it's nice to know people are attracted to reading as a result of EU, me - I like reading regardless.
  6. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "Can't we have a discussion without bashing people or the EU?"

    "Possibly, if you had someone popping in every little while telling people to be civil."


    OK. Here I am. Be civil. :cool:
  7. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    some1 knows if there r books with "Kyle Katarn" ?
  8. ADMIRALSPUZZUM Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 4
    Ya, there are some Kyle books, they are adapttions of Dark forces and jedi Knight 2 though. They are in a trade paperback comic type thing and they have page illustrations every once in a while.
  9. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    thx ADMIRALSPUZZUM

    bcs Kyle is my fav EU character hehe

    the game(s) r really nice

    and hey hes from LucasArts not delrey

    ;)
  10. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    A few things, even if it's a little late:

    Imperial_Guard:

    Actually, I don't really hate the EU as much as I hate people trying to ram it down my throat as official canon that is equal or superior in quality to the films.

    Quality is subjective. Nobody is forcing you to LIKE the EU. You can think it's utter bantha fodder, and that's good for you.
    This thread, as I stated before, is whether or not you like the EU.
    We know you don't. That's good for you. Nobody cares. Nobody cares that I like the EU, either. They're opinions. They mean nothing to anyone else but you.
    It's literally that simple.
    Please, stop preaching to all of us. I'm telling you the same thing I told Shelley.
    We know you don't like the EU. Saying it to us a thousand times in a thousand different ways won't change our opinions -- because all you're doing is stating yours. Calm down, and think.

    The crux of the matter regarding whether or not the EU is *canon*, however, has nothing to do with opinion.
    LFL and GL say that the EU is canon. Okay, great. That SHOULD end the debate right there.
    But clearly, it doesn't.
    Purists factor in their opinions as if they mean something. Once more, they don't.

    Let's make up a fictional example. I've used this one in the past, and I was taking a big risk in doing so.
    DISCLAIMER: I am in no way saying Purists are like any of these people, nor am I trying to be racist or offensive. It's merely an example to illustrate a point. Again, no offense is intended. If you take offense to it, well, that's your problem, because once again, no offense is intended.
    Alright, let's say the US Government passes an Amendment to the Constitution, giving black people the right to vote and stuff like that. Some people in the Deep South are racist, and don't like that Amendment. So they ignore it. They ignore the Amendment and the laws that follow it, giving Blacks equal opportunities and rights as those of White people. They ignore the Amendment simply because, in their opinion, it's unfair and they don't like it.
    Does that change the fact that the Amendment exists. Does that change the fact that Blacks have equal rights?
    Of course not.
    The Deep South people can rant, scream, cry, and be pissed off all they want, but the Amendment still stands. Blacks have equal rights.

    How does this relate to the EU?

    The higher-ups in the SW legislature (equivalent to the US Government) have explicitly stated that the EU is canon. Purists can be pissed off at this all they want, and rant and scream, but it doesn't change the fact that the EU has been declared canon, does it? The Purist *opinion* has absolutely no bearing or influence on the *fact* that the EU has been declared canon.
    Again, we're back to the whole "difference between fact and opinion" thing.

    Alright, so, in reality, the EU is canon. No Purist opinion can change that.
    So what good is the Purist opinion? (or anyone's opinion, for that matter)
    Well, you (the Purist) can personally disregard the EU. Just like the Deep South people chose to ignore the Amendment to the Constitution that they didn't like. You can't IMPOSE your personal opinion on anyone, and we cannot impose our opinion on you. Simply because they're opinions. The FACT, however, stands unchanged by opinion. It all comes down to the difference between fact and opinion, really. I see many, many Purists who can't tell the difference, or think that opinions somehow, somewhere, hold merit in a canon discussion. Shelley is one of those people, for example.

    I understand that the author, Stover, tries to cram postmodernism and existentialism into the SW universe by giving us his own selfish take on the Force.

    So.. you're basing a partially-formed opinion on hearsay (which happens to be only slightly correct)?
    Whatever floats your boat.
    Just know that when you make an assumption, you make an @$$ out of you. And -mption.

    So GL approved a take on the Force that completely contradicts his own?! Does he just stamp it or does he actually glance over the details? Unb
  11. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    anyway u try to ram it now
    or am i wrong ?[face_plain]

    relax ur sweating ;)
  12. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    I'll assume your post was directed at me -- I don't understand what you were trying to say, though.
  13. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    no need to have a fight here
    but
    he said
    "Actually, I don't really hate the EU as much as I hate people trying to ram it down my throat as official canon that is equal or superior in quality to the films.'

    and then u come with ur long story that looks allot like rammin

    as if u want to proof hes right

  14. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    I will reiterate what I've said repeatedly:

    I don't care if people don't like the EU. You can dislike it all you want. Just don't go bashing it endlessly -- we know you don't like it, and repeating yourself only makes you sound belligerent.

    (note: the "you" and "your" in the above paragraph is any Purist who preaches endlessly. Imperial_Guard or Shelley, for example)

    I don't try to ram it down anyone's throat. I simply point out to Purists that there's a difference between facts and opinions: one matters, the other doesn't.

    That's all I've been saying in my posts. The "length" of my posts has no bearing on the content. Assuming you'd read the post itself instead of simply figuring I was trying to browbeat people, you'd have seen this.
  15. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    okay at second sight u just tried to explain detailed
    when i first read it it somehow looked a bit agresive
    maybe bcs u used human rights and stuff
    or maybe its just bcs im a stupid foreigner
    :(
    who is not so good in English and misread it

    here by i apologize in case u felt attacked by my posts
  16. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    No, I didn't feel attacked; it's okay. :)

    My "human rights" example was simply that: an example. I could have probably done the same thing using something like trade agreements and embargos (like say... "the US does not trade with Cuba. Does that mean Cuba does not exist? No. We're simply ignoring Cuba". That's simply another off-the-top-of-my-head example, like the blacks/Deep South/Amendment one).
  17. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    LFL and GL say that the EU is canon. Okay, great. That SHOULD end the debate right there.

    I'll wager you $50 you can't find a single piece of evidence that Lucas has ever declared the EU canon. Go away and read the relevant info again.
    And there is one ambiguous quote by a Lucasfilm Licensing (note it's Licensing) book editor, in an EU publication. Set that against the comments from Lucas, Steve Sansweet, and other sources, and it looks like a pretty shaky statement to cling to.

    Purists factor in their opinions as if they mean something. Once more, they don't.

    EU fans also overexaggerate the importance of their opinions too. I mention no names...
  18. ADMIRALSPUZZUM Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 4
    Syntax:

    Some really good points there. Using little stories is a good idea, but if you get TOO into realism sometimes you loose people because for them it is "a totally different issue" and you might not get the point across. Anyway, if purists wish to ignore most or all of the EU, that is fine! Because, like some of them said, parts of it ARE really stupid, corny, etc. I personally dislike Dark Empire and Splinter of the Minds Eye. (For Splinter, it's because of continuity, I actually enjoyed it somewhat.) Big EU fans think that all ye purists are limiting yourselves and that you are "missing out on the fun" but that only works if you HAVE any fun reading EU. Thats why they "ram it down your throats", they want you to have fun!

    But, as Syntax said, ignoring something won't make it go away, you just gotta live with it. So really, I don't ignore Dark Empire and Splinter, I acknowledge their existence but I don't agree necissarily agree with what happens in them.
  19. ADMIRALSPUZZUM Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 4
    "Ah, even more silence!" Admiral Spuzzum installs a umbrella next to his deck chair and goes to get more iced tea.
  20. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    The crux of the matter regarding whether or not the EU is *canon*, however, has nothing to do with opinion.
    LFL and GL say that the EU is canon. Okay, great. That SHOULD end the debate right there.
    But clearly, it doesn't.
    Purists factor in their opinions as if they mean something. Once more, they don't.


    Well, besides the fact that I'm pretty sure Lucas never said anything of the sort (as covered above), nobody has to accept it as part of anyone's continuity. I personally think it is an incredibly stupid and hokey idea for the Emperor to have some soul transfer between clone bodies. According to you, however, I have to accept that as part of the Star Wars universe. Or the stormtrooper/clone issue. I believe that the evidence in the movies clearly indicates that stormies are clones (note: I am not trying to debate this subject, that has been done to death; I'm merely using it as an example). But according to you, I should reject all that because some EU book says otherwise. To me, it's like if an EU book came out that said that Palpatine and Sidious were two different people (once again, I'm not saying that this would actually happen, since the prequel EU seems to fit well into movie continuity). Should I throw out common sense and a logical conclusion because an author says something else?

    This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are telling me that if I do not accept the EU as canon, I am wrong. I'll requote the relevant line:

    Purists factor in their opinions as if they mean something. Once more, they don't.

    In other words, it doesn't matter what my personal continuity is, it doesn't matter that something obvious to me (but not directly stated) in the movies contradicts the EU, I must accept it, because in the face of "official continuity", my imagination, speculation, and opinion mean nothing.

    It's not the EU so much that I have a problem with, it's that kind of attitude.
  21. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Finally, (for Kingpin) don't bring a thread entitled "why do you hate EU?" into the film forums and not expect some people like me to vent. I don't hang around the EU forum slamming the EU all day. (I've never posted there, in fact) but when you bring a thread devoted to the EU into a film forum, it's open season as far as I'm concerned.

    This is for Kingpin,

    In the heat of the moment, I included this in a post a few pages back and forgot that you had a Jul 02 reg date. You're obviously new to the forums and were just curious about why some people don't care for the EU. It is never my intention to try and "scare newbies away". I try to welcome them whenever I can actually. I sincerely apologize and want to take back this comment. I will say that you picked perhaps one of the most controversial topics in SW fandom, perhaps more than the relevance of Jar Jar. ;)

    I also want to be clear about one thing. I didn't just wake up yesterday and not like the EU. There was a time when I was excited about the SW EU revival back when Heir To the Empire and Dark Empire came out.

    I read Zahn, and Anderson, the "tales of" books, a few others. Shadows of the Empire as well. I have a chunk of SW Dark Horse comics. A few of the Marvel ones too. But Vector Prime was where I simply lost interest in following the EU. It just turned me off and I just wasn't interested anymore. The prequels became the focus of my SW attention and the EU, for me, just felt like a pale imitation. And nothing since Vector has persuaded me to get back into the post-ROTJ stuff. Maybe the prequel and intertrilogy era material will turn out to be better. Maybe not. Who knows? But I'm not going to go any further on that.

    Finally, the best answer that I can give to you is this: figure it out for yourself. Form your own opinion. Don't listen to me or anybody else in this thread. Go to the library or the bookstore and check it out. Go to your local comic book shop and scan the shelves. If you find stuff that you can enjoy, that's great. If not, no big deal either. And now, I'm "officially" done with this thread. ;)
  22. ADMIRALSPUZZUM Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 4
    I applaud you Imperial_Guard, a graceful exit and a good conclusion to the current brawl that has enveloped this thread recently.
  23. SirLancelot Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2002
    star 4
    i think this thread has lived out it's usefullness. we are just going after each other now
  24. Wesmin7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 3





    ...you know a thread is out-lived itself when people are only posting about other people's posts...



  25. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    I agree with both SirLancelot and Wesmin

    There is really no point to this thread now...all everybody is doing is bashing each other...

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