main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Why does everyone think Suited Vader is so weak?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by dat_dude, Jun 3, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    Not taking anything away from Luke, but you do know Vader wasn't trying to kill him don't you?
     
  2. Sinjin_Sith

    Sinjin_Sith Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2006
    I do believe Vader wasn't give it his all, offensively, while dueling Luke in ROTJ. However, I don't believe he let Luke win. When Luke came at him with his fury, Vader could not defend himself against Luke's power and avoid his own defeat. And yeah, he was also caught off guard. Frankly, the better player/fighter doesn't always win.

    Vader is definitely hampered by his ROTS defeat, but I don't think he's weak. He's still a very powerful Sith lord. In that moment though, Luke overpowered him squarely with his abilities and some help from the Dark Side.

    In my mind, the reason Luke became good enough to do this, is that he had a type of determination and spirit that his father lacked. Frankly, Anakin had a comparitively cruddy attitude and his abilities made him arrogant and too sure of himself. Anakin saw how much better he was than the other padawans, had his head inflated by Palpatine, and knew he had made an unprecedented rise. But in truth, he could have progressed even faster if properly driven... and Luke demonstrated this. Luke was driven to be the best he could be by dire times and circumstances. Beyond his early and limited time with Ben, he had no one to compare himself to but the great Yoda, and Vader, who knocked Luke around in TESB and made him realize how much harder he needed to work. So he was driven to realize the quick gains (yes, even on his own) that Anakin COULD have made, but did not.

    That said, Luke was not yet as skilled as Anakin/Vader in ROTS. But Vader wasn't quite that either, with the saber. And in the moment, Luke got the upper hand and did overpower (a still powerful) Vader squarely.
    In ROTJ, Vader was indeed powerful, and so was Luke. They were a bit behind what Anakin was headed for before his injuries... but they weren't weak.

    Anyway, who screwed this page up?
    Is it that 'face_applause' post?
     
  3. Aeneas_Falco

    Aeneas_Falco Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    80% as powerful as the Emperor is still extremely powerful. Sidious went through a handful of Jedi Masters as if they were Battle Droids, and he fought Yoda to a draw. 80% as powerful as that is enough to serve up a beat down to most of the Old Republic Jedi, with the exception of Yoda, Mace, and maybe Obi Wan.

    Luke was able to defeat Vader with bare bones training because he's a prodigy. He's the son of the 'Chosen One' and apparently the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree. Both Palpatine and Vader make comments about Luke being powerful, and Sidious fears that he could destroy them. If Luke was a punk neither Vader or Sidious would have given him that appraisal.
     
  4. BleepsSweepsCreeps

    BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2004
    I've argued this for a long time, and I'm glad that some people are finally starting to see my side of it. I too firmly believe that in terms of sheer power, Darth Vader is stronger than everyone by the time of "A New Hope". Was his mastery of the force on par with Sideous or Yoda? Probably not, but judging by his words and actions it would appear he was coming along rather quickly. Listen to the way Vader speaks about the force in "A New Hope"... he's grown much wiser as a result of his actions on Mustafar. He was no longer that same young boy, but rather an older, more focused Dark Lord.

    Lucas claims Vader was 80% of Sideous... I don't buy that at all. In fact the only reason I think he says that is so he can legitamately defend the lackluster duels of the Original Trilogy in retrospect when compared to the Prequel Trilogy. Had the original three been filmed now rather than back in the 70's and 80's, I can assure you Vader would appear unstoppable in the eyes of the viewer. After all, how would he lose his power after "Revenge Of The Sith"? Sure he was severely burned, and yes he may have lost a few limbs... but the force is a power of the mind and spirit, not the body. Everything Yoda teaches Luke in "The Empire Strikes Back" affirms that fact. The force is something beyond the physical realm, therefore I don't see how the loss of a few limbs would weaken an already powerful Jedi Knight's ability to tap the force. As long as his mind was intact, his abilities would have remained. And if he truly was weakened by his injuries, why is he able to create a small earthquake after finding out about Padme's death? Clearly that is the strongest display of power in the entire saga, is it not? I would find that even more impressive than the flinging of senate pods by Sideous and Yoda. The fact that he was able to create an earthquake, even after his injuries, shows that it had no affect on his power whatsoever. I'm not purposely trying to disagree with Lucas, but his films seem to be telling a different story.

    As for Luke, he's just as powerful as his father and a serious threat to Sideous.

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi"
    "Luke, you could destroy the Emperor. He has forseen this"
    "He has grown strong."
    "Ineed you are powerful as the Emperor has forseen"
    -------------------------------------------------------------

    By the time of "Return Of The Jedi", Luke was VERY powerful. I'm confident that had it been filmed today, the duel between Vader and Luke would have been more visually satisfying than any of the other duels in the entire saga. A common misconception by a large majority of fans is that the two most powerful characters square off in "Revenge Of The Sith", being Yoda and Darth Sidoues. That's incorrect. That duel takes place in "Return Of The Jedi" between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker, and it is correctly places in the epic saga's final chapter. Knowledge and mastery of the force is what separates a Jedi from a Jedi Master... not power. In terms of power, Vader and Luke are stronger than just about everyone. Ignore the fight choreography, and just pay attention to the story.

    Of all the main characters we're introduced to in the saga, here is how I would rank them in terms of power. Remember, power... not mastery of the force. This means while Yoda's ability to forsee the future outweighs Luke by a substantial margin, Yoda knows Luke is the only one capable of destroying Vader and Sideous. Why? Because Yoda knows Luke is the only one powerful enough to do it.

    In terms of POWER:

    1. Luke Skywalker (ROTJ)
    2. Darth Vader (OT)
    3. Yoda = Darth Sideous = Mace Windu
    4. Dooku
    5. Anakin Skywalker (ROTS)
    6. Obi Wan Kenobi (AOTC & ROTS)


    Remember though, for that brief moment where Anakin was able to focus his anger on Dooku he was practically unbeatable! Had Anakin been able to control his emotions, he would have ALWAYS been in that state! In fact Obi Wan only defeats him because Anakin was overtaken by his anger, rather
     
  5. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    I can't see that being close. No way was Luke stronger than Sidious, Dooku or any of the others on your list.
    Vader not wanting to hack his Son to pieces does not make Luke stronger..."not by a long shot".
    No one will really know who would stomp whom in an all out brawl because the stories are not that straight foward, they have depth to them & many factors involved.

    Could Yoda have taken out Darth Vader after ROTS? Probably, but not with a legion of Stormtroopers backing Vader.
    Could Vader have cleaved Obi-Wan in half on Mustafar? Probably if Obi-Wan hadn't had the experience & wisdom to jump back onto the bank at the last second.
    Did Maul had Obi-Wan his a$$? Oh yeah he did! Then he got cocky and didn't see an obvious death sentence coming his way.

    ..it's not so easy, BleepsSweepsCreeps
     
  6. -HD-YaebGinn

    -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Luke was greatly underrated by the fans, because you dont get a feel that he has trained with Yoda for 3 months or more. It seems like a few weeks maybe from the films. So when he does well against Vader in ESB, it looks Vader look bad, not Luke look good.

    Also, after RotS, you dont see Vader doing as well because he is clunky in his new legs and arms. (Frankenstein scene) by ANH he is almost as good as he was in RotS. definitely as much of a better fighter, just not as strong in the Force, cause he has to devote strength to helping him stay alive.

    And Vader looks bad in RotJ by the crappy way Luke fights. He hits the wall (at the end) more than he hits Vader.

     
  7. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    When in actuality it was months he was on Dagobah.
     
  8. -HD-YaebGinn

    -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    correct, and they (yoda and spirit ben) trained him solely to be a good fighter. not to discovder the flower within or whatever, or think on the living force, they trained him pretty much only to be strong in the force and to whup butt with a lightsaber. which mkaes me think Yoda had a saber on dagobah.
     
  9. Droid

    Droid Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2000
    Vader didn't allow himself to be beaten in that lightsaber battle at the end of ROTJ. Sure he wasn't trying to kill Luke but he lost fair and square. In terms of experience that would be like a black belt martial artist losing to a green belt. The only way that can happen is if the black belt has lost a considerable amount of skill from the time that the title was bestowed.
     
  10. DarthJuggalo

    DarthJuggalo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Sure Vader lost but, you can not base Vader's power on a duel in which he didn't want to fight.

    If you are fighting someone who wants to kill you and you don't wanna kill them, I guarantee you lose 99% of the time.

    I believe if Vader was fighting at full capacity he would take Luke out rather swiftly. Luke just didn't have the experience or the training.
     
  11. -HD-YaebGinn

    -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    You are assuming Luke wanted to kill Vader. Vader tried to kill Luke all the time, Luke only tried to kill Vader at the end. (he wasnt playing catch when he tossed his saber at Luke, you know)

     
  12. mjerome3

    mjerome3 Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 11, 2000
    Vader is not weak by any means. He's still very strong in the Force. He's still equals to what Count Dooku and Darth Maul were and even as a burnt up, crippled man who happens to be a walking life support system, he's probably still a bit stronger than they were.
     
  13. rogueadam

    rogueadam Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2006
    I don't think suited Vader is weak, but his suit makes his movements a bit clunky . In other words, he is weighed down so he can not move as fast as another skilled fighter.
     
  14. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    That's true and it is a fact but look at Yoda in the OT and Palps they can barely move and are aided with a cane. The force lets them control themselves and gives them that energy and speed. We don't see that in the OT, okay Palps walks down a few steps and while zapping Luke he is upright and doesn't need the cane but it is only displayed since the PT came out, AOTC in particular that both Yoda and Palps can depend on their powers. So why can't Vader be quicker? If Vader supposedly has 80% the power of Palpatine that should make him quicker than what he is shouldn't it?
     
  15. Aeneas_Falco

    Aeneas_Falco Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    Exactly, or at the very least Vader was fighting to win. It could have just as easily been Luke laying prostrate and missing a hand, except Luke got the better of Vader. He beat him fair and square, and quite convincingly. The only time Luke was ever on the defensive during that duel is when he was unwise to lower his defenses. ;-)

    Vader lost because Luke had grown since the two last battled. Vader was facing a much more difficult opponent as by RotJ Luke is a Jedi in all but name.

    I think since the release of the PT people pay too much attention to the speed in which the duels are fought in the OT. The only reason why the duels in the OT are slower and more deliberate is because the special effects were more primitive in the early 80s.

    Jedi and Sith fight while harnessing the power of the force. Physical handicaps do not get in the way when one is using the force. That is why Yoda is able to flip around like an acrobat even though he normally walks with a cane, and why an old man like Dooku is able to beat off two Jedi several decades his junior. Vader's wasn't limited by his suit, he was only limited by the special effects of the 1980s. Both suited Vader and RotJ Luke are supposed to be powerful. I think this is a case where people shouldn't get too caught up in minor details and instead pay attention to the story.
     
  16. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    EXACTLY! If you re-read my post I was answering another that passed on Vader's suit/limb replacement as making him slow, heavy and not as skilled, when im confirming that although that's true it should not matter as it doesn't with Yoda or Palps, that was my point with the PT. The OT never showed Yoda or Palps jumping around with CGI until the PT came out;)
     
  17. AnakinSucks

    AnakinSucks Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2005
    Obi-wan would have destroyed him sooner if it was not for his love for his "brother"

    Dooku (shot) KOED him in 2 seconds.

    Dooku (older and more shot) let him win the rematch.

    Obi-wan (old man with walking stick)was hammering him before he let Vader win.

    Luke (little skinny boy with no training) KOED him in the second round.

    THe emporer killed him by accident. ROFL!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Vader is a bum.
     
  18. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    :rolleyes: I disagree with your points. That summarisation is narrow minded.
     
  19. AnakinSucks

    AnakinSucks Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2005
    I'm just joking around. LOL.
     
  20. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Vader is less powerful than the Emperor. Lucas' statements stand, as he knows more about his own story than anyone else. If Vader was as strong as the Emperor, he would be able to use lightning and easily overpower Luke. Its obvious that Lucas always intended for the Emperor to be stronger than Vader. This is why the Emperor is Vader's Master and uses force lightning.
     
  21. -HD-YaebGinn

    -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    somone in a diff thread mention lightning shorting out Vader's life support so he didnt use it.

    Vader could be as powerful as the emperor, but he has to devote enrgy to keeping himself alive.

    exactly- the OT duels are fine, and are only not as good compared to PT because of technology. If the tech was the same as the PT tech, everyone would think Luke is the bomb.
     
  22. Darth_Rojar

    Darth_Rojar Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2006
    I like many have argued with my friends about this constantly.

    My theory is that vaders more then a match for any remaining or pt jedi which may have been out there, but he knows that sidious always has that slight edge on him. during the fight in rotj i think he was trying to stir up lukes emotions to make him turn to the darkside and free him from sidious's rule by killing him and having vader as his master. when this back fires and sidious is torturing luke, vader knows that luke still isn't strong enough and steps in.

    He is very powerful and second only to sidious, people say he's to slow and has restricted arm movement....... has anyone ever seen the way a samuri fights,they are able to defeat their apponents with..... little movement!! and what did GL base darth's look on??????????????
     
  23. -HD-YaebGinn

    -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    1. It's not that he wasnt strong enough (even Yoda can be hurt by lightning heck, even Sidious can as we saw in RotS) it's that he was unarmed. He threw his saber down and left himsefl wide pen on purpose.

    2. Restricted movement? He didnt seem restricted in RotS with his fake arm. I assume he's doing fine with all his limbs fake.
     
  24. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Man are you way off.

    Obi-Wan was on the defensive 99% of the ROTS duel.

    Anakin lasted longer against Dooku than Obi-Wan.

    Dooku in no way *let* Anakin beat him in ROTS, he got whooped...period.

    Obi-Wan never had a "walking stick" in ANH nor did he let Vader win.

    Luke only beat Vader by tapping the dark side in ROTJ - and no, Vader was not trying to kill his son.

    You last comment I'm just not gonna touch.
     
  25. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Although I agree with you more than Anakinsucks, I think you are both too absolute in your arguments. Obi-Wan was on the defensive in the duel in ROTS because it's the way he fights. He looks for an opportunity and then takes it. It's what he did to Griveous and what he did to Anakin. His tactics worked. He was better than Anakin in that duel. Anakin may have been slightly more powerful, but OBW better nontheless.

    Anakin surely did a better figure against Dooku in both cases than OBW. However, I heard rumors of the AOTC scene with Dooku fighting OBW was actually longer...
    In ROTS Dooku lost to Anakin, although personally I've never been a fan of how it happened.

    In ANH OBW can actually be said to let Vader win. He dropped his guard intentionally. Before that neither seemed to dominate the other.

    Luke beating Vader in ROTJ. I don't think he would have beaten Vader if Vader had not been so confused about his feelings. There were times when we saw Vader dominating Luke, from the start - then he was not quite as confused... Vader was overall more powerful than Luke in ROTJ
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.