main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Why does everyone think Suited Vader is so weak?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by dat_dude, Jun 3, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    I'll give you that, Rossa....to a degree :)

    Though in ANH it boiled down to either fight on & try to escape, thus drawing attention to the New Hope (which would be bad)...or just give in to the force & go out then.
    Either way, Obi-Wan knew he wasn't winning that fight.

    I did read that there was more filmed for the AOTC duels too, though Anakin's was much longer even if you include the cuts.
    Add all that to the novelizations of AOTC - ROTJ and I'm not necessarily "absolute" about anything.
    (though I never said I wasn't "biased" toward Vader). :)
     
  2. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    But then we agree:) I don't even think that OBW set out to win over Vader. It was not his destiny. Luke was their new hope, and as you say, he would only draw attention to Luke. He needed to be sacrificed so the others could explain. Also, Luke got a glimpse of the evil of the dark-side!!

    Suited Vader never was weak, as Anakin never was weak (in infancy perhaps he was:p ) All I think many will argue is that he could have become so much greater. Had he stayed a Jedi he would have been amazingly powerful. He needed time to understand and control his powers, not something the dark-side would help him with...
     
  3. DarthJuggalo

    DarthJuggalo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2005
    You're right OBW didn't set out to beat Vader. He didn't even want to fight. He new Vader was too much for him.

    If he was capable of beating Vader on the DS, then he would have. Instead, after realizing he wasn't able to defeat Vader he chose the most apropriate time to end the fight. There is no reason why not killing Darth Vader is better then letting him kill you, especially for the rebellion. So anyone who says it was a better idea for Obi Wan to give up instead of trying to win is crazy.
     
  4. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Although I agree that Vader most likely was a better duelist than OBW at this point, I still think he wouldn't have wanted to kill Vader anyway. The point of this is that the EMperor would be untouchable. Perhaps OBW still believed in the chosen one, but needed Luke to turn him. Although OBW says otherwise, he might just have said what needed to be said. Also, if he did defeat Vader it is unlikely that all would escape. In the end it was all that he could do... neither seemed to be much better than the other anyhow...
     
  5. -HD-YaebGinn

    -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    obi-wan was defensive to show that he didnt want to kill anakin.
     
  6. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    ^^Obi-Wan was defensive because he was at odds with his emotional attachment to his former apprentice...he knew what he had to do as a Jedi.
    But fighting the Chosen One was no walk in the park, at odds or no.

    I'm sure when Vader had him doubled over choking the crap outta Obi-Wan that he wasn't allowing Vader to crush his throat. :)
     
  7. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    I'm not saying that OBW had an easy time against Anakin/Vader in either fight, but in ROTS he turned out to be the better Jedi. Their force duel shows them as equals - neither can hold on and are consequently pushed backward. OBW are also near killing Anakin one or two times before the final blow. They were quite equal, with OBW being the smarter one in the end.

    In ANH it is uncertain who was the strongest. I would like for it to be OBW, but I fear it was Vader. However, OBW didn't stop fighting because he knew he would die anyhow. He stopped fighting to let the others escape, thus creating a distraction.
     
  8. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    He sure did...since one's a Sith. :)
    (just playing)

    Obi-Wan is a good Jedi & a smart fighter - I will give him that for sure.
     
  9. DarthJuggalo

    DarthJuggalo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2005
    I agree that they were basically equals in RotS. Although Anakin did get more shots in. But thats neither here or there. Just the fact that Anakin was portrayed as Obi Wan's equal speaks volumes for his power seeing how he is only a knight and Obi Wan is a Master.

    On the DS however, I believe Vader was too much for him. In the novel for ANH it states that Obi Wan knew he couldn't beat Vader shortly after the duel started.

    As far as a distraction, I believe killing Vader right there on the DS would be even more of a distraction for the empire which in turn would allow all of them including Obi Wan to escape. I mean there was only a handful of stormtroopers in the hangar. According to the PT, a few stormtroopers should've have been no problem for Obi Wan. He killed more then a handful outside the Jedi temple with Yoda in RotS. Not mention he had Han, Chewy, Luke and Leia there all with weapons.

    I just don't see how it was in their better interest for Obi Wan to die instead of Vader.
     
  10. jedi_prime

    jedi_prime Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 30, 2005
    As another has stated, Obi Wan's style of fighting was defensive in nature, so that is understandable. Obi Wan got a fair amount of attacks in, many of which were quite effective, particularly the kicks.

    Anakin lasted longer against Dooku, but did you see Dooku actually use the Force against Anakin? No, he reserved that for Obi Wan, whom he considered to be the more dangerous opponent, not to mention that Sidious wanted to test Anakin's skills.

    Dooku did indeed get whooped by Anakin, but had he actually used some of his Force abilities, it might have gone somewhat differently.

    Obi Wan did let Vader win, unless you somehow consider the part where Obi Wan was prevailing each time the two crossed blades and the fact that Obi Wan specifically brought his saber up to a salute prior to Vader swinging at him the last time. Oh, and the fact that Obi Wan wasn't actually there when Vader's blade touched the robes...

    In ROTJ Luke dominated the fight from the start. To believe otherwise is to ignore what is shown in the film. He crossed swords with his father, kicked him down the stairs, tried to avoid him, dodged a thrown saber. In the second sequence, he pushed Vader back to the elevator, prevented Vader from leaving the catwalk to the elevator, and finally sliced off Vader's hand. How, exactly, did Vader appear to hold his own in that fight? Also, why do you think he was conflicted. He didn't make the decision to save his son until Sidious was frying him.

     
  11. Apprentice_To_Master

    Apprentice_To_Master Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Let's put it this way. He makes up for what he lacks in strength in power and understanding of the force. He has so much knowledge of the light and dark side that he can use it to high advantage during combat and outside of combat while searching for things ( like luke) and seeing the future in the froce. One does not need strength or lightsaber skills to defeeat an opponent. Vader could easily cripple most Jedi Masters and Sith.
     
  12. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    I think that it was in the better interest to get to Sideous. OBW knew he could not defeat Sideous, nor could he get to him. Luke could get to him via Vader. Their only hope really was that Vader would help Luke. I don't think either OBW nor Yoda seriously thought that Luke could take out both Vader and Sideous. The fact is that no Jedi could ever get to Sideous had not Luke been let in by Vader. He was too highly protected.
     
  13. Sinjin_Sith

    Sinjin_Sith Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2006
    While I still believe suited Vader was powerful (not as powerful as he could have been without the past injuries), it is apparent Luke dominated the ENTIRE duel in ROTJ. To say Vader was conflicted is also very true, I think, but not really valid because we have to remember so was Luke. Neither was trying to kill the other... and especially Luke was very open about his lack of desire to fight and possibly hurt his father. You can argue that Luke was probably MORE conflicted about fighting... but that's unnecessary. Both father and son were half unwilling participants in this duel that Sidious manipulated them into. Their inner conflicts washed each other out, and Luke was better through the duel.
     
  14. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    ..one thing that makes me despise the PT in a small way is how the general perception of Vader has changed to "crippled old man".
    Not once in the PT was he shown as "crippled"...messed up & creepy, sure.

    and lightning doesn't deflect blaster shots - I only saw one person do that. :)
     
  15. BleepsSweepsCreeps

    BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Obi Wan was clearly not as powerful as Anakin was, I thought the films made that quite clear. The only reason he was able to defeat him on Mustafar was because Anakin was consumed by confusion and anger, which is why in ANH he refers to himself as being the learner rather than the master. For that brief moment he was able to conquer his emotions against Dooku, he was virtually unstoppable. Had Anakin been able to remain that way the entire film, Obi Wan wouldn't have stood a chance on Mustafar... no one would have.

    "When I left you I was but the learner, but now I am the master!", says Vader in ANH. This implies that Anakin had grown much wiser over the years, and was indeed able to conquer his emotions and utilze his anger. I'll say it once and I'll say it again, you have to ignore the fight choreography and just pay attention the actual story. Darth Vader, even while in the suit, is still stronger than just about everyone. Only Luke can defeat him.
     
  16. Psycho_Sith

    Psycho_Sith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Dark Lord does a great job expanding on just that which you're talking about...such a good book.
     
  17. blicknasty

    blicknasty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2004
    The Darth Vader character is inheirently weak. Power is not assigned. You have it or you don't. The weak are the ones always scammering to get a piece of that power.
     
  18. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    I completely disagree. There was not much difference between them. Their force duel CLEARLY show that, as you so eloquently put it. Nothing seems to be clear though, since we are constantly debating it;) "Now I'm the master" only taught him, NO... he wasn't. I think he didn't understand anything when OBW just dissapeared... Also, Anakin was emotional, a wreck of emotions, but isn't it emotions that's supposed to give a Sith strength? You're just making excuses. OBW was just as emotional, but he was able to surpress his emotions, thus making him better!
     
  19. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2004
    The one thing i dissagree with int his is when you say to ignore the fight choreography in ANH.

    I dissagree, it is not the best that it could have been but i truly think the style is perfect.

    Slow, almost Samauri like and a lot less flashy and fast than in Episode 3.

    The main point of the way I watch Episode 4 in light of the duel in Episode 3 is to watch vader waiting for Obi-Wan to really make a move.

    Darth Vader will not try to make the same mistake now, Obi-Wan couldn't have stood toe to toe with Anakin on Mustafar, but he could beat him in a moving fight.

    Eventually taunting and using the terrain against him, this time on the Death Star they are locked in a duel on a flat Deck surrounded by walls and...storm troopers.

    Thus it is fought with a completely different style, a more hesitant style because one combatant knows he's won if he doesn't make a mistake and the other is just trying to buy time not win.

    Other than that I agree with you over all, I do think the duel in episode 4 could be filmed better now, but i like it as it is.
     
  20. BleepsSweepsCreeps

    BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2004
    "The one thing i dissagree with int his is when you say to ignore the fight choreography in ANH."

    I think you misunderstood me. It's not that I don't respect the choreography, it's that I don't think it should be used as a form of evidence to support the "Vader is weak" theory. People watch the duels of the OT, and because they're less visually satisfying, they assume that the combatants were weaker. This is why many say Vader was weakened after being put into the suit, and that Luke was merely a padawan. Story-wise, that couldn't be further from the truth. Both Luke and Vader are the strongest combatants to ever grace the galaxy.

    Had ROTJ been filmed today, I'm positive both Luke and Vader would be doing backflips over the Emperor's balcony.
     
  21. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Yep I missunderstood, I took you litteraly as in "disregard" the duel. As you just put it I would agree with that thought.
     
  22. Sinjin_Sith

    Sinjin_Sith Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Is there a question that suited Vader is roughly 80% of the power that Sidious is? That seems acceptable.

    Now, was pre-suit Vader more than 80% of Sidious? It doesn't seem that way to me... Sidious was the most powerful in ROTS. So I would say suited Vader is at least equal to pre-suit.... and with so much more time and wisdom he probably was a bit more formidable than he was in ROTS.
     
  23. BleepsSweepsCreeps

    BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2004
    is there a question that suited Vader is roughly 80% of the power that Sidious is? That seems acceptable.

    In terms of wisdom and mastery over the dark side of the force, no. Sideous was able to forsee the future much clearer than Vader ever could, and this is because he is more knowledgeable of the force in general. That is what separates the knight from the master, not power. In terms of sheer power, suited Vader is still stronger than the Emperor. He is only mentally subservant to him, not physically.


    Now, was pre-suit Vader more than 80% of Sidious? It doesn't seem that way to me... Sidious was the most powerful in ROTS. So I would say suited Vader is at least equal to pre-suit.... and with so much more time and wisdom he probably was a bit more formidable than he was in ROTS.

    In ROTS during his duel with Dooku, he encourages Anakin to "use" his fear and anger and as a result he's taken out rather shortly. Remember Dooku was no slouch, but rather one of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy. The fact that Anakin took him out in almost an instant says a great deal about how powerful he was. When he faces Obi Wan on Mustafar however, he's not in control of those emotions but rather they're in control of him, and that is why he's defeated by a more patient Obi Wan. Had Anakin been able to revisit that state of emotions he utilized versus Dooku, Obi Wan wouldn't have a stood a chance... nor would anyone for that matter. Darth Vader in the Original Trilogy is in that state constantly, hence making him unbeatable by anyone except his offsprings.
     
  24. DarthJuggalo

    DarthJuggalo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2005
    I agree both were conflicted. Luke however did not "dominate" the entire duel.

    The only time Vader was in serious trouble is when he mentioned Leia. That happened to be the time when Luke stopped being conflicted and was overcome by his hate.

    The only other time where Luke did anything to Vader was kick him down the stairs. Which in turn was followed by Vader throwing his saber at the catwalk, knocking Luke off of it.

    So basically we trade a kick for a thrown lightsaber both causing each other to fall. Then Luke hid from Vader until he mentioned Leia. Luke was hell bent on killing Vader at this point. This is the only time where Luke seemed dominant to me. Although he didn't seem very dominant while crying for daddy on the ground[face_laugh]. I'm sorry, that part just always cracks me up. FATHER PLEASE!!!!!!!

     
  25. -HD-YaebGinn

    -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2005
    ANH Duel- If Obi-Wan was the one fighting at the age he would be chronologically, and not Alec Guiness's age, Obi-Wan could have won the Death Star duel. He would be still spry at around 50 years old and could beat Vader.
    Vader is alot stronger now that he has robot emplacements but is also less manueverable. His style of fighting is no longer the quick, fluid movements, it is now the extroadinarily strong and constant attacks. If Obi-Wan was around 50, he would still be quick enough and strong enough to take Vader in the Death Star. But there is no way he could at 70.

    RotJ duel- It was an even duel. Luke had been trained solely to fight Vader by both Obi and Yoda for months. And he is very strong in the Force. Vader was still strong in the Force, but much of it is devoted to keeping him alive, so he cant do the same stuff he did before. Neither of them wanted to kill each other. At the end, when Luke tapped into the dark side, he did beat Vader fair and square. At that time, he really wanted to kill Vader, and Vader was still in the not wanting to kill luke mode.


    Suited Vader- Not as strong as powerful as pre-suited Vader. He is both older and greatly more damaged. He is stronger physically, and wiser, but doesnt have the vigor he once had.

    Obi-Wan could stand toe to toe with Anakin, at least as much as Anakin could stand toe to toe with him. They are both equal. They did stand toe to toe with each other in the control room for a good little while. It was a draw. Then again on the little platform. What some dont see, is that it was a perfectly even fight. Obi-Wan was just as good a fighter as Anakin, then in the end his wisdom won out and he won the duel.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.