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Why does it SUCK?????? A spirited discussion about Jedi Apprentice

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Obischick, Oct 15, 2001.

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  1. Cow_Girl

    Cow_Girl Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2001
    The thing that kind of bothered me about jedi quest that before Obi-wan did anything at all he would sit down and think "Hmmmm, what would Qui-gon do here?" and that got very annoying after a little bit. The part that I'm mad about is that there was tiny little scene where we siri and Obi flirting (That's how I say it anyways) and it only lasted a couple of lines, and took place in the present and I would have loved to have seen that scene go on just a little bit longer or have jude watosn expand on it some more, but she doesn't but meanwhile she can use entire paragraphs just explaining teaching that qui-gon might have told Ob-wan ten years ago!

    Note-I love the jedi apprentice series, but since "jedi quest" is not really part of the series that is way I had to have that little rant there...
     
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well I have one thing to say...

    Obi Wan Kenobi had better **** sleep with Siri that's all I'm saying.

    Call it vulgar, call it disgusting but even if we have to have "Tavira's lesbian interspecism covered up with headache" allusion I want it to be known there was something going on between these two.

    Hey I've got an idea...do a BIG book for us adults as well as kids and make the allusion they sleep together.

    I don't care if it's called JEDI APPRENTICE I want to find out about Obi Wan Kenobi and I want to see he and Siri snuggling close.

    Let's see that as some of Obi Wan's "recklessness" maybe rubbing off on Anakin.

    *Mild Spoilers ahead for Episode II-I'm talking extremely mild and don't even know if it's true*
    >
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    Maybe it's in fact the reason Anakin doesn't listen to too much of his "older brother" if Obi Wan Kenobi has an affair on the side that he chooses the Jedi Knighthood over.
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    *end spoilers despite their mildness*

    Why do I want Obi Wan to have a torrid affair? Well the reason is ****** the man has such a cruddy life that he needs a great romance of it and I don't think that Tahl's romance with Qui Gon was enough.

    I mean they didn't even kiss.

    Yes they made up for it with Qui Gon's yawning "me and Tahl were best friends since etc" type deal but Siri and Obi Wan could barely stand each other.

    Obi Wan had a crush but he's nearly 20 and hasn't even kissed yet.

    At least let him experiment if he's going to be a monk, preferrably with Siri.

     
  3. Obischick

    Obischick Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Wow, the thread lives.....

    Hi Nawibo!! Cool...nice to see you've found my little thread, and you manage to say all the things I wanted to say, only better. :D

    I have not read the special edition ones. I really hate the fact that they are starting books between EP I and EP II when EP II hasn't even come out yet...sheesh.

    I'm tired, but I'll be back and ranting tommorrow, arn't you all thrilled? :D

    ~Obischick :)
     
  4. ValedaKor

    ValedaKor Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2000
    This has been an interesting thread to read...

    Having been involved in the YA market (and I'm sure I'm the oldest of you here by a very, very wide margin), I'll attempt to explain how these types of books are expected to be structured. First of all, as I'm sure you've noticed, the English construction in them is very basic. This leads directly into the "psychological" construction of YA (Young Adult) literature -- angst is generally not an issue. Jude Watson is following the forumula almost exactly. Each book teaches a lesson, a "moral to the story," as it were. You have a young boy experiencing life for the first time, with an older mentor providing lessons, admonishment and encouragement along the way. BTW - what you will not have is any hint of any sort of sexual subplot -- sorry for those of you who would like to see that! LOL

    What I'm assuming Jude Watson will do, especially with the current plotline, is have OB1 basically "reverse roles" with his Master, enabling us to see him as he expands into his role of "grown-up."

    I agree with Naw Ibo -- <<As I said, the books have gotten more Qui-Gon-centric over time.>> I believe this is due entirely to the fact that Jude Watson knew the series was wrapping up with #18, and she is going to show us "Obi-Wan as leader," rather than the other way around. That being said, I too feel that Qui-Gon has been given much too prominent a role; but, author (and editor) know best, I suppose.

    <<That's the real complaint here. We rarely get to see Obi-Wan through anyone else's eyes.>>

    Don't forget, Naw Obi, that these books are not written from a totally omniscent POV. Third person limited is all you're going to get. YA books don't usually feature too much introspection, anyway - not with this POV.

    <<As soon as we met her I said to myself "Oh she's just given Qui-Gon a love interest". Tahl is like her very own Mary Sue).>>

    Very good, Naw Ibo! Very perceptive. The minute I "heard" about Tahl I thought, "Oh, she's sure to be the Star Trek officer in the red shirt!" I was right, of course <g>.

    <<There are many books which manage to put a stronger focus on the youngsters as opposed to the adult teachers in their lives--so it can't be that difficult. In fact that is just what most young reader books of this type do.>>

    Yes, but they don't have "He Who Must Be Obeyed" at Lucasfilm to answer to! And a Del Rey timeline that must be followed.

    In any event, what I think we are seeing for the last several books is really the essence of QG fading away, to be replaced by the emergence of a "youngster growing up fast." I can see this in the comments about who is taking over these books -- since we know that QG will not figure in the next series, ergo, we have a young Jedi Knight who has learned from his mistakes and those of others, and now gets a chance to put all that into practice. Unfortunately, history would appear to repeat itself at the end, but that's another story....
     
  5. Jedi-Faith

    Jedi-Faith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2000
    Obi and Siri... Uhhhhhh... gross visual there... :mad:

    Four words: not going to happen.
     
  6. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    I think a little part of my point was missed(easy to see why with how long my last posts were :) ).

    I do not expect Watson NOT to show the negative aspects of Obi-Wan's personality, what I object to is that she doesn't show enough of the positive aspects and she doesn't really give him much of a personality.

    To the other point regarding POV in a YA book. I'm not looking for long internal narrative passages. I'm comparing his treatment to that of Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon is related in the text the way Obi-Wan should be(I don't mean the events and experiences, which would obviously be different for a master than a padawan). The point is if she can devote all that to the master, she should have been doing it for the apprentice.

    To the examples of things Obi-Wan has done--those things are not covered in nearly the detail or depth Qui-Gon's travails are. Sure Obi-Wan comes out of them better than Qui-Gon in some cases, but somehow it just ends up making Obi-Wan seem shallow, like his feelings are fleeting and not that deep so relatively easily gotten over, while Qui-Gon is really deep and feeling.

    As for Yoda pointing out that Qui-Gon shouldn't have left Obi-Wan on M/D without at least trying to figure out why he was doing what he did, sure, as I said, it was glossed over. Yoda said something, a moments thought was given to it and then it was over for the most part. This from the man(Qui-Gon) who dwells on everything--everything except Obi-Wan.

    Also I not even have suggested Qui-Gon use some sort of trickery with Obi-Wan. :) What I mean is Qui-Gon gave Obi-Wan no guidance. He saw almost immediately that Obi-Wan was having some emotions over the situation there, that he was having conflicting feelings, that he was getting involved--but he dealt with it. This is the situation Master/Padawan relationships were formed for--to help Padawans put into practice all those things they learned sitting in the Temple, easier said than done.

    Qui-Gon basically left Obi-Wan to fend for himself here instead of getting involved with him, asking him questions, making him "think" about the situation instead of just "feeling" it. Doing the things masters should do in that kind of situation. That is what I meant by Qui-Gon dropped the ball--not that I thought he should have forced Obi-Wan to come or anything like that. He could have headed off that situation before it ever came to that if he hadn't let Obi-Wan basically go off and do whatever he wanted to during that mission, with only the tersest of "warnings". That is a big part of what was glossed over.

    And Watson isn't going to make up for it with Obi-Wan in the next series either. I've read two of her first attempts(JA:SE Deceptions, Jedi Quest) and believe me, it ain't happenin'. :D

    I think I gave the example above--now on more than one occassion she mentions something about Obi-Wan having a quick and clever mind. But this is not demonstrated in any kind of meaningful way. He does manage to adopt a clever disguise at one point in JQ. BUT he contributes NOTHING to the resolution of the story. He's literally just there basically because I guess they feel they can't just not have him appear in more than half the book. And again, his mistakes are dwelled on while we are given little evidence of his talent. Almost every time he does have a decent idea, Watson still manages to credit Qui-Gon for it--and he's been dead at least 4 years in these books! LOL!!

    For instance, when Siri and Anakin are in the cell, Siri mentions something about how Anakin reminds her of Obi-Wan and how you always had to work extra hard just to keep up with him. You'd certainly not guess it by this story. And you'd never guess that by going back to the JEDI APPRENTICE. It's certainly never mentioned he's particularly talented or smart or has any kind of areas he's talented in. He's just a Jedi Apprentice. LOL!! In fact just about the only time he actually did something smarter than a fellow padawan was when Siri ran off and got over her head in that fight in Book 12 o
     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Please Watson is already hinting at it. You can practically feel them undressing each other with their eyes every time they meet...she's not a recurring character for any old reason dangit!

    As for Qui Gon dropping the ball yes it was a big deal but you have to realize again that we're supposed to identify with Obi Wan's plight and that Jedi don't often think like normal men. Obi Wan at 13-14 was already a man in Qui Gon's eyes and let's not put to fine a point on it...

    killed hundreds of people.

    Qui Gon is not a very good master as he illustrates by pointing out his "second failure" with a Padawan. I think it was practically soaking the book his self righteousness that Jude has never been too easy to play up.

    As for Obi Wan being a deep thinker how do I say this....does it occur to you he isn't?

    Obi Wan has only since Melinda/Daan actually stopped being a man who asks questions later and reacts first. He's quick to judge and very impatient.

    We see this constantly, see the Day of Reckoning where he judges the street thief by his occupation instantly and heck see the Phantom Menace where he says "another pathetic life form"

    The largest effect seems to be of Obi Wan's experience that instead of learning to think for himself he lets the council think for him and WOULDN'T YOU after his experiences?

    The man has been drilled into obediance from day one and realize with Anakin his relationship is WHAT QUI GON WANTS.

    Obi Wan doesn't want a padawan, he wants Qui Gon to be happy....

    Why he needs to get laid pardon my vulgarity, it'll give him anotehr selfish reason to think on his own like Melinda/Daan

    The only thing stronger than Obi Wan's loyalty to his Old Master has to be his loyalty to the cause of right and usually they go hand in hand.

     
  8. Jedi-Faith

    Jedi-Faith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2000
    And Watson isn't going to make up for it with Obi-Wan in the next series either. I've read two of her first attempts(JA:SE Deceptions, Jedi Quest) and believe me, it ain't happenin'.

    LOL! I liked JA:SE... Of all the stories, that's the one where Obi-Wan is generally the central character. Of course, there's still Qui and Tahl... skip that :D

    Almost every time he does have a decent idea, Watson still manages to credit Qui-Gon for it--and he's been dead at least 4 years in these books! LOL!!

    Hehehehe... the dead are very powerful apparently! Remember, "strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" ;) But seriously, I didn't read enough of JQ to form an opinion over that... but I'll definitely be annoyed if I keep seeing that happen.

    ...Siri mentions something about how Anakin reminds her of Obi-Wan and how you always had to work extra hard just to keep up with him. You'd certainly not guess it by this story. And you'd never guess that by going back to the JEDI APPRENTICE.

    Well, there is one reference; not enough, huh? :D

    Siri was taken at like age 11. Really he's portrayed as being quite average.

    Was she taken at 11? I always thought Siri was almost Obi-Wan's age, since she was Bruck's friend. Hmmmm... And if Qui-Gon wasn't so stubborn, Obi-Wan would have been taken at 11 when he fought for him the first time. I really have a feeling that Yoda was meddling in this thing the whole time. My theory... hehe, too much fanfic I guess :D

    I agree PLEASE NO SIRI AND OBI-WAN.

    LOL! I certainly hope they stay in character, although it's a little weird now cuz the official site has an entry for Siri Tachi. I wonder if they're thinking of putting the character into the movie; not many other purely EU characters get listed...

    Something to think about ;)
     
  9. Jedi-Faith

    Jedi-Faith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2000
    Thank you for yet another nasty visual...

    Uhhhhhhhhh NO..... I can't "feel them undressing each other with their eyes"; that's just you and your imagination... Anyway, do people actually do that (the eye-undressing thing)?!?! GROSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! :mad:

    I'm pretty sure that Obi-Wan's not out to get laid; he's quite the rule-abiding Jedi.

    But I do agree with you about the Phantom Menace portrayal of Obi-Wan. Jude Watson actually portrays him as a better person in the books than the movie does.
     
  10. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    As for Qui Gon dropping the ball yes it was a big deal but you have to realize again that we're supposed to identify with Obi Wan's plight

    How can we identify with Obi-Wan's plight when we don't even know what it is? It's that his master is too busy with everyone else, with his own "selfish" desires(which of course he convinces himself are selfless and right) to realize what is happening to his padawan. But this is never really dealt with.

    Obi-Wan was actually doing exactly what Qui-Gon would have done, in other situations(I believe Obi-Wan even makes mention of this), he can't understand why Qui-Gon won't help and would just leave them. Qui-Gon never takes the time to explain the difference, if there is one. He hasn't taken the time to even try and show and explain, in this "real world" situation, how his lessons from his Temple training are important.

    I'm not talking about Obi-Wan's childhood or adulthood here, I'm talking about a Teacher/Student relationship. That is what the master is supposed to do. Qui-Gon didn't. And this fact has never really been dealt with sufficiently. Even in book 15, where Obi-Wan gives a brief thought back to Melida/Daan(when Qui-Gon at first won't go back and help the workers camp) and suddenly that is cut short. Jude Watson won't go into it. She's got to go into in the next book or 17 I'm thinking but it just doesn't make up for a dozen books that could have been dealing with all sorts of issues and haven't

    I also have to disagree, Charlemagne, I don't know where you get the idea Siri and Obi-Wan "are mentally undressing each other". LOL!! They acted more like a couple of 8 years olds ("Did not!"Did too""Never") than anyone undressing each other mentally. LOL!!

    Oh I have no doubt that is what Watson would like to do(just like I knew Tahl was doomed as Qui-Gon's love intereste from the second she showed up) BUT things may prevent that from happening(fingers crossed). If she stays in character, neither Obi-Wan nor Siri would do such a thing. They are both dedicated, serious, by the book Jedi. They'd nip it in the bud so fast Watson's head would spin.
     
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I disagree....

    Obi Wan has broken the rules before and will do so again

    "Without the Council's permission if I must"

    Okay maybe I'm reading too much into Obi Wan and Siri here but it's more believable than Qui Gon and Tahl. The fact remains they bicker and rival and I think that they do have an attraction to each other.

    In my opinion all attraction has it's roots in a bit of envy and admiration and they have it for each other in spades, just wait til Hormones kick in.

    In any case Naw Ibo I think you've hit a problem with the Jedi Books but one I think you should realize something.

    Obi Wan forgives Qui Gon.

    Obi Wan you must realize again is trained more as an adult than any other man should and at 13 suceeds in WINNING a war. He basically tells his master to shove it and doesn't see that the Jedi should not intervene if not wanted here....

    Yes Qui Gon could explain it and yes they failed each other (I want to put my life at risk for a bunch of people I've known fifteen minutes because I know better than you that they are right and the other people deserve to die)

    Qui Gon knows he's failed and Mace Windu even says to his face in typical reserved style "Leaving an adolescent on a war ravaged world is your idea of being a good master?"

    Qui Gon is by no means portrayed as right in this case nor sympathetique but neither is Obi Wan portrayed in that light. Yes he helped bring an end to the War but he also screwed up royally in objectivity and Qui Gon he didn't TRUST to help.

    Both recognize their faults and aren't going to bring it up because I don't think honestly it was that big of a deal to them.

    Obi Wan doesn't blame Qui Gon for Xanatos
    Qui Gon doesn't blame Obi Wan for Bruck's death
    Neither blame the other for not getting each other out of various life threatening situations faster.
    They recognize and accept each other's faults and ocasional laspes in good judgement.

    Qui Gon for instance isn't there emotionally for Obi Wan during half of these things because he doesn't GET his padawan.

    There's a generation/training gap.

    It's very realistic I think and no sign of Qui Gon sympathy.

    In truth I think what your detecting is not focus on Qui Gon but the fact that as a man whose lived considerably longer than Obi Wan Qui Gon simply has more personality depth than his apprentice and experience to draw on

    Thus he "stands out" more on the page than Obi Wan who is in a way "everyone's boy". Like Luke compared to Han Solo when your older you realize Luke isn't that interesting.

    Especially compared to Obi wan! Imagine a book series where Obi Wan and Luke skywalker survive their first mission and go after bad guys.

    Obi Wan would mop the floor with Farm Boy in undestated truths, cool quotes, and strangeness.
     
  12. Jedi-Faith

    Jedi-Faith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2000
    Okay maybe I'm reading too much into Obi Wan and Siri here but it's more believable than Qui Gon and Tahl.

    I don't see how it's any more believable than Qui-Gon. In fact, between the two, I'd expect Qui-Gon to be the one to fall in love the way he did than Obi-Wan. Qui is ultimately WAY more emotional than Obi-Wan; that's more than obvious with the way the two approach situations differently. Qui-Gon trusts his feelings; Obi-Wan tends to more often consider logic as well...

    The fact remains they bicker and rival and I think that they do have an attraction to each other.

    That is what I fear the most. You have a good point with that because Jude Watson does tend to show attraction through bickering. Den and Andra, Qui-Gon and Tahl, the two in JA10... Scary... :_|

    But the whole thing with the rules, Obi-Wan declares that he'll train Anakin against the council's wishes if needed because of he needs to honor Qui-Gon's dying wish. Through the rest of the movie, he's always the one who wants to do things by the book.

    I don't see Obi-Wan going well with Siri, but only time will tell as to what Jude Watson or maybe even George Lucas will make of it.
     
  13. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    weird, I edited and for some reason it posted below as a seperate post. :D Read complete post below.
     
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Is it necessarily chucking the code?

    What if Obi Wan honestly finds himself in love with Siri? What if he is willing to leave the Jedi Order if God forbid we find that is the punishment for it (not apparently with Kidi adi Mundi) or such.

    I think it could be an intriguing story.

    Siri may not die either, they may simply share a night of passion (i'm not dropping this) and decide that it can never be.

    And Obi Wan becomes the crusty bitter Alec Guiness we know....

    Well the death of the Jedi Order MAY have something to do with that too
     
  15. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    Obi-Wan is NOT a rule breaker generally. Obi-Wan is by the books, Obi-Wan was by the books in TPM except for training Anakin as his master's dying request. That is something very out of character for him. Remember Yoda scolding him at the end of TPM, "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you, need this you do not". Because it was out of character for him, Qui-Gon was the defiant, rule breaking one.

    The situation with Anakin's training is very different. It's not something for "himself", it's for Qui-Gon whom he feels he's failed and has alot of guilt because he couldn't save. Very different from suddenly just chucking the Jedi Code because of a few hormones.


    As for the rest, that is what the purpose of these books should have been for--to give Obi-Wan that personality. Qui-Gon has one from the film, Obi-Wan really didn't to a large extent. To show us how he developed into this by-the-book young man despite having Mr Rule Breaker for a Master. If you write about Qui-Gon more and focus on him, of course he's going to have more personality in the books. Had Watson kept on Dave Wolverton's track there wouldn't be a problem. He had the right balance, she managed to sort of keep it the first couple of books. But then her "crush" on Qui-Gon took over and that was the end of that.

    I mean, Harry Potter books are directed towards kids too, but they still manage to keep the kid characters front and center. I know they are much longer, but many short books have done the same thing. It isn't impossible and it can't be that hard for writers or there wouldn't be so many of them.

    While alot of fanfiction is not high quality writing or even plotting, more than a few of the really good ones do at least manage to come up with situations and/or issues which should have been dealt with from Obi-Wan's perspective and just weren't or were rushed over so she could get back to Qui-Gon. If these unpaid "amateur" writers can manage it, why couldn't Watson? I've read a couple of series-style ones that would probably nearly as long at the JA series when all printed out--that have done it. Like I said, they aren't necessarily up to the standard, but they are close enough to show that a real professional writer who is getting paid for it could do it if she tried.

    EDIT: Obi-Wan is NOT leaving the Order again. He did that once. He'd never do it again. Especially not with a padawan to look after. One who is very difficult and one whom he is determined to prove his master right with. He'd not risk it, he's got an example to set and if nothing else his portrayal as a master in these books shows he takes that responsibility very seriously.

    Nope bad idea. How about trying to write one of these things without the forced romance? I've yet to read a Jedi romance that is done well. And that includes Tahl and Qui-Gon. Maybe Watson can be original for once and not do the obvious thing?
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm sorry I just don't get what you want.

    What issues in a adolescent-teenager's book do you want done from Obi Wan's perspective. You've mentioned Qui Gon's betrayal but the fact remains that Obi Wan probably doesn't think of it that way.

    The Harry Potter Books are indeed about harry Potter and his three friends but they also have 300+ pages to deal with the trials and tribulations of a young man with many complexities. It's one of the things brought up in Deceptions (yes it was abominable Qui Gon's overstatement there-even I'll agree with that) that Obi Wan's main fault is he doesn't have most of the complexities that Anakin does and is unprepared like Qui Gon to deal with them.

    Why I suggest a girlfriend for Obi Wan, it will help shake his life up

     
  17. Jedi-Faith

    Jedi-Faith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2000
    I've never read Harry Potter, but my friend is obsessed with it. I've been considering reading one to see what the hype is about...

    While alot of fanfiction is not high quality writing or even plotting, more than a few of the really good ones do at least manage to come up with situations and/or issues which should have been dealt with from Obi-Wan's perspective and just weren't or were rushed over so she could get back to Qui-Gon.

    Perhaps I speak from a biased perspective, but the majority of fanfiction that I have read that could qualify for what you describe involve situations that are far from appropriate for the age level JA is aimed at. There are only two kinds of fics that I have seen that do a good job of character development; one is torture/angst, the other is mush. Jude Watson can't freely write with either aspect the way fanfic authors can. She can write to only one rating, she has no disclaimers, and she can't include author notes to point out that a certain part of the story should be taken a certain way. Interpretation of stories falls only on the readers, and it can become very dangerous if you write something that might be questioned.

    Modern society is very concerned with the treatment of children. With torture/angst, if Obi-Wan is constantly placed in the centre of things, people might bring up any number of issues regarding violence or abuse. But no one will complain if you put an adult through the same kind of torment. And if you look back on all the books, the major character developments for Qui-Gon comes from emotional torment or even physical torture (JA12). First, it was Xanatos, then in Mark of the Crown he questions his future and his legacy, then Obi-Wan leaves the order, then Xanatos reappears, then he gets abducted, and now Tahl dies. It's not to say that Obi-Wan didn't have his fair share of pain: he gets sent to the Agri-Corp, he almost gets killed on Bandomeer, he almost gets his memory wiped on Phindar, Cerasi dies, he kills Bruck, he gets semi-brainwashed in JA9, his master gets abducted, and now his master goes loco on him. In fact, in hindsight, more stuff happens to Obi-Wan than it does to Qui-Gon. But Jude Watson doesn't dwell on it, so you don't notice it. Dave Wolverton did this too; when Obi-Wan was attacked by the Hutt, we only know that he was hit and then strangled, but for Qui-Gon, we get nice details on that really nasty wound he gets from the space pirate. You can contrast JASE part 2 with JA15 as well; in SE, Obi-Wan as an adult gets shot and we know where he was shot and how painful it was, but Obi-Wan has a teen in JA15 receives a leg injury and that's all we know about it (there's no mention of what kind of wound it was or even which leg it was on!). Ultimately, if she started going in depth with everything that happens to Obi-Wan as a teen, people may start questioning her motives for doing that, as you question her concentration on Qui-Gon. It may be "Jedi Apprentice", but in the end it's better to have a bunch of angry readers older than the target audience than a mass of angry parents of children for whom the books are written for.

    As for mush and the common complaint I've seen that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fail to develop a close relationship in the JA books, again it's to prevent misinterpretation. There is A LOT of grey area when it comes to mush, and often the distinguishing factor is the author's note, something Jude Watson doesn't have. I've mentioned it before and I'll say it again; it's been said that the relationship depicted in JA12 is questionable. I think she's done a fairly decent job in finding ways to indirectly show their relationship through the situations they're placed in. Yes, to me, it could be better. But again, it's angry readers vs. angry parents. Kids won't dissect the books the way we do. They'll read it for the story and not for all the tiny details that are or should be here.

    I will read a Harry Potter book sometime. I want to see the way they approach storytelling... It's been awhile since I've read any YA novels aside f
     
  18. Jedi-Faith

    Jedi-Faith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2000
    I agree that Obi-Wan's character lacks the complexity that Anakin has, or even the Qui-Gon Jude Watson has created has. The bottom line is that we don't know much about Obi-Wan from the movies. The character of Qui-Gon Jinn, in one movie, was given more depth than Obi-Wan Kenobi, who we've seen in four films now. All we really know is that he became a General, that he survived the purge, that he was Qui-Gon's apprentice, and that he trained Anakin because of a promise. As for personality, all we saw in TPM was, well, I talked about that already. GL didn't give people enough to work with, and that is probably why his character is often so badly portrayed.

    In JA, Jude Watson writes the character based on the assumption that he's not the unforgiving nor the emotional type. Bad things may happen, but he stands tall against them and faces them head on. That's his strength; that's how he'll be able to survive the catastrophes that he'll face.

    But no, a girlfriend is not the solution; a girlfriend would turn the thing into more of a soap opera than it already is. They're Jedi Knights, not hormonal people whose lives revolve solely around silly romances. They're guardians of peace and justice; they have far more important things to be concerned about.
     
  19. Obischick

    Obischick Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Jedi-Faith. go read a Harry Potter book right now!!!!

    They are what JA should have been.....*sigh* shorter though.

    Obi-Wan and Siri, well that was what I first thought when we first met her. I knew that was what Jude Watson was gonna do. It was fate. I HATE THAT!! I wanted to rant, but I don't have the books right here right now, so I'll hold my anger back till tommorrow.

    ~Obischick
     
  20. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    Oh my god!! LOL!! :D I would never suggest the type of fanfiction you are talking about. The ones I had in mind weren't of that type. They wouldn't need much toning down. :D Yikes! I do know what is and is not appropriate. I was talking about a way of dealing with characters anyway. Not specific situations and not descriptions of physical injuries or anything like that. My main thrust was "mental" an "emotional". They certainly aren't the worst YA books but they don't match up to the really good ones in terms of exploration of a youthful main character. (and who said the relationship in #12 was questionable? I always read the reader reviews on B&N and Amazon and haven't seen anything suggesting that from either the kids or the parents?)

    Actually as for the physical pain stuff, I thought that 12(whichever one has Qui-Gon captured) was one of the "good" Obi-Wan ones precisely because Qui-Gon was captured and phsically injured. I don't even view that one as one of the Qui-Gon focused books. LOL! So I guess my focus really isn't on the physical injury stuff.

    The very fact that Obi-Wan isn't all that spelled out on film is what makes him a ripe subject for writing. His youth is NEVER going to be covered in the films. She could have done whatever she wanted(within reason) so long as he ended up like the man who was in TPM. She could to get him there anyway she wanted to. Qui-Gon was a full fledged Jedi Master in TPM, he's already that in the books, he just wouldn't be changing all that much. He didn't need much expansion. This was a HUGE missed opportunity.

    Dave Wolverton gave her a good start. Obi-Wan was almost NOT a Jedi. He was almost completely passed over and sent to the agri- corps. That situation with Bruck and their rivalry, Obi-Wan's inability to not take the bait. I've always said Obi-Wan reminds of the "great kid" who ends up trying to kill themselves and then everyone goes "But he always seemed so happy and well-adjusted". Not that he'd try to kill himself--but there's enough there to suggest there IS more to him than his surface but for some reason she has chosen to almost completely ignore the opportunity to explore it.

    Let's go back to those central books, Melida/Daan--he'd practically killed himself just be taken as an apprentice, then two books later he's ditching it all for people he's just met? Sounds like someone with self-worth issues, stemming perhaps from his rejections earlier at the Temple perhaps?. He went where he felt like he was wanted and needed. Never covered in any kind of meaningful way in ANY of the books. Even those jokes about "pathetic lifeforms" in TPM--subconsciously it is often said that we make fun of weaknesses in others we are afraid of in ourselves...hmmm? Look at his face when he's tossed aside in favor of Anakin? Something Obi-Wan has never completely gotten over. He's just been rejected for the "something better" that came along. Something he may have been waiting for as much as Qui-Gon was just waiting for Obi-Wan to betray him like Xanotos had?

    These are just some of the situations that are ripe for hints as to some further "issues". You can build a genuinely interesting character on those kinds of foundations. Goodness, Qui-Gon was raised in the same Temple Obi-Wan was. If it could create a Qui-Gon Jinn the Rebel it could certainly create an Obi-Wan with some complexities. Age has nothing to do with it.

    You don't need 300 pages to do that with a youthful character anymore than you do with an adult. There is nothing she's done with Qui-Gon in terms of character exposition and development, that she couldn't have done with Obi-Wan(the situations would be different because he's a padawan of course).
     
  21. Mistress_Renata

    Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2000
    Hm, well even though naw ibo and I generally don't see eye-to-eye on all things Obi Wan, I'll venture my two credits' worth anyway:

    I think the whole series went downhill after #8. I'll read the last ones, just to wrap it up, but I'm probably not going to bother with the new Obi/Ani ones; I'm certainly not going to waste my money on them.

    Obi-Wan was actually pretty proactive during the Bounty hunter/Zenn Arbor line; he was running around doing a lot more than Qui-Gon, who pretty much spent most of the time in a test tube... literally... The first few, and the Wolverton one showed a good balance. Now they're skewed by book (#10 was, IMHO, particularly awful; she could have left the Jedi out altogether and it wouldn't have made a difference).

    The most recent ones (Mara Su/Tahl) though, are a big disappointment, not to mention very out of character. I mean, please "He finally declares his love only to have her die in his arms, so he vows revenge...") Jude, babe, turn off the soaps and watch the OT a few more times. And the miners' raid & Obi-Wan's injury were so patently put in there just to slow down his great rescue, contributing nothing whatsoever to the rest of the plot.

    Not to mention, if we're going to really go out on a limb here: is it just me, or did Tahl really have it coming? I liked her character at first, but what a B!tch she turned out to be! I was so sick of all her preaching to Qui-Gon about how he needed to understand his apprentice, he needed to communicate, blah, blah... the minute Qui-Gon expressed a concern over Bant, it was "Don't tell me what to do with my apprentice! It's none of your business, it's between her and me!" Well, Ms. Hypocrite, considering he's trained THREE apprentices, and you've only just bothered to take ONE before walking out on her to go undercover in a dangerous situation...

    Okay. I'll stop ranting now. I could go on and on... I won't. But I feel better. :D
     
  22. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    LOL!! Hi Renata! :D

    I can never remember which books had Test Tube Qui-Gon, like I said I think the main one was #12--that one was a "good" Obi-Wan book in my opinion. Wolverton's had a good balance, Watson managed to keep that up for a couple of books and then it started to go down hill.

    I agree about the contrivances in the last ones in particular. Watson does that in Jedi Quest too. As I said in a previous post, Obi-Wan didn't even need to be in the final half of the book at all. He literally contributes nothing towards the resolution of the main plot and as a subplot it isn't interesting enough and it doesn't develop his character enough to make it worthwhile.

    These books are for 8 to 12 year olds, right?--when I was 10 I was reading Gone with the Wind, Wuthering Heights and All's Quiet on the Western Front. I wasn't a genius, but even saying I was an above average reader, if I could read them, certainly other 8 to 12 year olds could handle something a little more complex than what she is giving them. I remember being in third, fourth and fifth grade and having kids read those Judy Blume books for book reports. They were very popular for book reports actually--if kids that age could handle them, they could handle a young Obi-Wan character with a more complexity than what Watson has given him.
     
  23. Mistress_Renata

    Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2000
    But you know, I suppose Jude's aiming at boys, who, by and large, AREN'T readers! Girls (as a rule, there have been studies) read everything & everything, including so-called boys' books. (Me, I was reading Lord of the Rings & Rebecca, as well as GWTW --did you want that green taffeta dress too? ;) )

    So, for that reason, I suppose she has to "dumb it down" and lay off the relationships thing.

    But oh, please, gods: NO OBI/SIRI ROMANCE!!! BARF, BARF, BARF! (And thousands of 11 and 12 year old boys would agree with me!!!)

    --Renata
    (thinks she's gonna have to stop reading the Literature board, it only makes me angry at the authors bent on screwing up the EU...)
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Hey hey hey hey!

    Jude Watson is NOT dumbing down her books dangit! It's supposed to be easily readable mass produced fiction and Jude is FAR FAR FAR FAR more intelligent in her writings than the VAST majority of authors of her "target audience" and more to the point quite a few adult star wars authors.

    Jimmy of Star Wars! (my new personal curse)

    She's dealt with brainwashing, illegitamate children, Communism, Totalatarian education, ecological issues, A Kosovo like War situation, a father's love for a son, betrayal by those closest to one.....

    You take that back!

    *says in best Annie voice*
     
  25. Jedi-Faith

    Jedi-Faith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2000
    LOL! Just checking on that Naw Ibo... :D Honestly, I've never read a fanfic that doesn't heavily involve either aspect; point me to one if you have time :)

    I agree with Charlemagne19; JA is far more complex than most books placed in the 8-12 age group. Jude Watson mentioned in the Insider once that she doesn't dumb the books down too much because kids will automatically find more info when they come across something they don't know. She only mentions that violence is something she tends to avoid directly talking about; it's the reason why most of the fights Obi and Qui get into are with droids or nasty creatures and not people.

    But you have to remember that Jude Watson is not the one who determines the age group, or the requirements for books for that target audience. She's only follow rules, one of which is length. Give her 300+ pages to work with, and I think we'll see plenty of character development. But, I think her limit is 144 or something, so she can only focus on the really important parts and go quickly over the details that aren't necessary for the overall story. The requirements to the 8-12 age group are also an average sort of thing. You'll have people who read a lot more complex books than that; you'll also have people who do zero reading at all.

    And if you're like me, you can't put up with loooooooooong books unless there's a report and a mark involved to force you to read it. And even then, I might not finish it, like the Gormenghast Trilogy (good lord, 3000 pages or something... :_|). I haven't read any of the books you've listed actually, because they were never required for any of my English courses. My bro is reading Wurthering Heights right now for Gr. 11 English, but I won't tell you his opinion of it ;) :D
     
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