Why does it SUCK?????? A spirited discussion about Jedi Apprentice

No time now, but did just want to say, I was NOT suggesting the books should be longer. They could be the exact same length. They didn't have to go into Obi-Wan any deeper than they go into Qui-Gon now. Which they don't. That is it.

I'm not saying they should be longer. I'm not saying they should be more complex IN GENERAL. They should have had a more complex Obi-Wan. I'm saying they should have spent as much time and as much depth dealing with Obi-Wan as they did with Qui-Gon. And they did not. The books are called JEDI APPRENTICE. They should have focused first and foremost before anyone and anything else, on the apprentice.

 

Ghormenghast was not worth reading, and I gave up after the first hour of the TV series. But, oh, poor Jedi Faith --equating long books with the junk on your required reading list? You are missing so much!

I cannot figure out why people are put off by length (bearing in mind we're not talking about YA books here)... it's the STORY. If it's a good story & you're enjoying the characters, it doesn't matter how long it is. You won't even notice how long it is! But the stuff on required reading lists("Catcher in the Rye," "Animal Farm," and, Force help us, "Great Expectations") is the most boring, depressing, impossible to read stuff in the world. I have read a lot of what is considered "great literature." The only ones I actually enjoyed were the ones I chose to read on my own. Like "Rebecca" by Daphne du Maurier, or "Gone With the Wind."

We were talking about JA? No, sorry, this last arc, the "great romance" was the straw that broke the camel's back. Trite, implausible, with unsympathetic characters... And that's got nothing to do with the length of the book. You don't need 500+ pages to write an exciting page turner. Just creativity. But it seems she's burned out.

Jude's lost a reader. I'll finish the JA series, but I'm not bothering with the next one. When good authors go bad... it's happened to some of my favorite mystery authors, it's happened to SW (witness the entire debacle that is the NJO), I suppose it was only a matter of time. Guess I'll have to stay with fanfic. Frankly, most of it is better written.

Even the stuff aimed at 14 year olds.

 

Admittadly it came from no where but I can respect the fact that Jude Watson gave a reason for Qui Gon's protective feelings to Tahl.

Have you ever considered that Qui Gon's profession of love now completely explains why he was so completely ignored Obi-Wan on Melida/Daan?

Plus she got to die at a reasonably evil villains hands.

I didn't think also that Jedi Quest was entirely up to snuff either but the difference between Qui-Gon/Obi wan in terms of relationship is fantastic.

Anakin is exuberant, hyper active, and frankly a little bit street wise. Meaning he's not unwilling to see blood spilled and judge people to be beyond redemption.

It's no wonder Obi Wan is so unprepared to deal with him...I just hope we get to see some of the apprentice rub off on Obi Wan or the little tyke will completely outshine his master.

A Jedi Apprentice thread I do NOT WANT TO SEE!!!!!!! It may be called Jedi Apprentice but I don't want Anakin taking constant front center stage.

I want Obi Wan just like I wanted Qui gon in the previous books, a title shouldn't determine a book's focus.

 

To agree with Mistress Renata, I didn't read any of those books because they were on a reading list. I read them because I wanted to. Actually I think "All's Quiet On the Western Front" was on one of those "books you should read over the summer" reading lists, but I just read it because it looked interesting.

Believe it or not I did read the Gormenghast trilogy, back when I was 15. I liked the first book but the others I just read because I felt I had to finish the series.

Oh and Mistress Renata, I did want that Green velvet dress. Although I would have settled for the white and apple green barbecue dress.

Back to Jedi Apprentice. To add one more thing to the idea that because of Obi-Wan's age he isn't interesting enough. These are YA books. Look at all the the other books in the YA section. They all focus on characters who are in Obi-Wan's age range. Every other YA writer in the country can manage to write books focusing on characters aged 11 to 17 years old except Jude Watson in Jedi Apprentice? In fact, they focus on them almost exclusively, even more so than I think any of us are suggesting for the JA series.

The only reason you can say now that "Obi-Wan isn't interesting enough" is because Watson didn't make him interesting enough. Dave Wolverton gave her a great foundation for an interesting character in that first book. She managed to keep it up for a couple of books and then she dropped the ball and it's gotten further and further away from her as time has passed. She had a wide open path, she could do whatever she wanted, within reason. And she basically chose to do virtually nothing.

Have you ever considered that Qui Gon's profession of love now completely explains why he was so completely ignored Obi-Wan on Melida/Daan?

Yeah, and it stinks! (IMO of course ) It isn't like that's a good reason. It's not like it somehow makes him more sympathetic, although I'm sure that is what she wants. He's Obi-Wan's master, his padawan's training and well-being is supposed to come first and foremost from the moment he takes him on until the moment he takes his trials(which, going by TPM, is obviously something Qui-Gon never did manage to get straight)--it doesn't matter whether he ignored Obi-Wan because of twue wuuvv or if he ignored him simply because he's a self-absorbed long haired hippy. Basically, the reason doesn't matter. They are all bad. Which is the whole point.

It is, once again as it has been for virtually the whole series, explaining "Why Qui-Gon is..." not "What this does to Obi-Wan..." except in a very cursory fashion. And these books, as Jedi Apprentice books, should be about "What this does to Obi-Wan..." and "Why Obi-Wan is...".

What should have been done is for the effects of these things on Obi-Wan to be explored. It should be acknowledged and gone into with the same depth and focus she has given to Qui-Gon, like she has for instance, with his little romance with Tahl, like she has with his "trauma" with Xanatos, etc, etc. And we've only got a couple books left, even if she somehow managed to make Obi-Wan the central focus in all of them it doesn't make up for the fact that she's lost "years" of character development for Obi-Wan in the dozen or so books she didn't focus on him.

For the next series, we've already seen the path she is taking with Jedi Quest and JA: SE. Obi-Wan is not getting the "Qui-Gon treatment". Obi-Wan is still getting the "Obi-Wan treatment" AKA make him as superfluous and ineffective as possible. Meanwhile Qui-Gon is dead and he still manages to get the "Qui-Gon treatment" because he is mentioned on every other bloody page. If anyone is planning to read the next series, they might as well start getting used to it. It's going to be about Anakin Skywalker, Chosen One...oh and that other guy, you know the one who is supposed to be his master, instead of the late GREAT QUI-GON JINN...Obi-Swan, Nobi-One...Obi-Wan, that's it.

 

Naw Ibo

It's obvious we're never going to agree on this because I cannot relate to you how I feel about Young Jedi Knights

Okay yes I can....

* Shallow characterization

Obi Wan isn't interesting because he's a boring person, that doesn't make him any less likeable or endearing. He's like a young Rupert Giles or Willow....I think also his loyalty, sense of right and wrong, and nobility make him very interesting.

Jania, Jacen, and company were so disgustingly ripped off and cute that I wanted to be vomiting reading them.

* Cheesy plots

KJA's worst work ever was the Shadow Academy and the following Plague and ressurection of Black Sun...all of them were so blisteringly anecedotal of Leia, Han, and Luke works that they failed miserably and of course no one was ever in any real danger.

* awful dialogue

Obi Wan and Qui Gon sound like real human beings as opposed to the whiny Solo-babies, their wookie, and C3PO rip off.

To compare Jedi Apprentice to Young Jedi Knights is to quote Bobby Heanen comparing ice cream to horse manure.

 

Junior Jedi Knights suffered from the same problems to a lesser extent but were infinately superior I think in relaying an intelligent young mans throughts and feelings and creating an interesting partner.

Also the facing of Exar Kun's spirits and some of the encounters (like Palpatine's mist) were genuinely scary unlike the farce that was the routine encounters with bad guys on YJK

Jude Watson doesn't dumb down and YJK suffered dumb down immensley.

I totally also disagree with Qui Gon this, Qui Gon that....Obi Wan I think we'll see much more of once Episode II comes out and they will be equals in the new Jedi Apprentice

LIKE THEY WERE EQUALS IN THE FIRST

We saw both in equal parts in my impression and Obi Wan often was a better judge of situations than Qui Gon even as ther former knew people better

that was a partnership

 

I've never read Young Jedi Knights so I would never compare JA to them. I was talking about the whole section of YA books that surround the JA series. Not just Star Wars books.

I never said I didn't think Obi-Wan was insteresting. Obi-Wan is my favorite character. Which is why it drives me nuts to see all the opportunities to explore his "interestingness" passed up by Ms Watson. I think Obi-Wan is very interesting but not because of anything Watson has written. I said according to the comments in this thread it has been said that the reason JA couldn't focus on him is because, basically, he isn't interesting enough. You yourself just said he's "boring". My answer to that is, he wouldn't be if Watson bothered to take the time to make him interesting. But she's too busy feeding her obsession with Qui-Gon to do that.

Again, I'm not talking about who is the better judge of this or that or who is "right" most of the time. I'm talking about getting inside the characters. Watson has spent alot more time getting inside Qui-Gon than she has Obi-Wan.

I don't see what there is to question about the next series. We've gotten two books from her giving us a pretty extensive preview of what to expect. It ain't pretty. At least not from an Obi-Wan Kenobi perspective.

 

Ghormenghast was not worth reading, and I gave up after the first hour of the TV series.

Actually, I chose to read the Gormenghast Trilogy... My English class that year was pretty neat; I got to pick all the books I wanted to do reports on, so it wasn't really "required" in the sense that I didn't have a choice. And to it's credit, the Gormenghast Trilogy is not that bad... Yea, the set combined is bigger than a dictionary, but Mervin Peake does manage to create an entire world with amazing detail. It was impressive; the man certainly had an imagination. It's just that long books aren't my thing. And I haven't seen the movie yet so I don't know how well they adapted it...

I cannot figure out why people are put off by length... it's the STORY. If it's a good story & you're enjoying the characters, it doesn't matter how long it is.

I don't know about other people, but for me, it's a combination of lack of time, lack of attention span, and impatience. I have yet to find a book that actually engages me so much that I'd be too caught up in the whole thing to notice that it's going on and on. I simply don't have the focus for that to happen. With that in mind, I tend to look at the storyline secondary to the message the book conveys. After reading a book, I consider whether it was worth reading; was there something really cool in there?

And ultimately, I personally judge a book by the message it presents. The storyline is important, but the overall message stands out more. And then of course, what makes a book really great is if it arrives at a wonderful point without going round and round in circles first, which is why I like YA books more, why I love reading JA (back on topic after a massive digression... hehe). Less details, same conclusion, it's all good

It's going to be about Anakin Skywalker, Chosen One...oh and that other guy, you know the one who is supposed to be his master, instead of the late GREAT QUI-GON JINN...Obi-Swan, Nobi-One...Obi-Wan, that's it.

LOL! Well, you never know though... maybe something miraculous will happen and we'll get to see Obi-Wan more than we've seen so far in the second series...

Keep hope alive!

 

I dont have much to say exept




























I LOVE THOSE BOOKS!!! EACH AND EVERY ONE!!! THEY ARE MY BEST FRIENDS!! DO NOT INSULT THEM !!! OBI-WAN IS GREAT BUT ONLY BECOUSSE OF A GREAT MASTER!!! I SHOULD TAKE OFF THE CAPS!!! i love those books. i wich the series wouldent end and it would continue forever. oh how i love them. now i shall end with this simple quote "We all have knees"

 

Charlemagne19, you are dead on target about those crappy YJK books!! LOL!! LOL!!

~Obischick

 

I ove these books so much that it is going to break my heart to see them finished, I'm searching for scholastics e-mail so that I an e-mail them and complain!
On the bright side I now have my star wars obessed friend hooked on them too, she thinks that there great an she is only on the second book!

 

Okay Naw...

You've finally cornered me.

What exactly would YOU do to make the Jedi Apprentice series better?

I'm talking making up plots, how Obi wan's character would be different, etc.

I'm sure Obi Wan is very interesting and I know so...I'm just saying I think Qui Gon is more mysterious and has more oppurtunities for traditional development.

Especially since we know he dies in Episode One this will be the only chance we ever get to see him and Obi in action really

 

But Charlemagne19, in Naw Ibo's defense, it's not so much what she thinks she could do to improve JA. I mean, first of all, that'll be an endless debate. Take romance for example... You want more of it; a lot of us here cringe at the thought a Qui/Tahl-type thing happening again. It's a matter of opinion, and when it boils down to that, there will never be a unified agreement over anything. Besides, that's what fanfic is for! "Don't like it? Rewrite it!"

She and others are just arguing that the series title is "Jedi Apprentice" and yet the books fail to focus on the Apprentice. And it is a valid point, because it's rather obvious that Jude Watson prefers to write about Qui-Gon. She indirectly admits to it in interviews as well, because she always comments on how much she enjoys developing Qui-Gon's character by sending him through all these situations.

I kind of stand on both sides on this... I personally don't have a problem with the focus being more on the Master than the Apprentice, because to me the books are ultimately very good regardless of who's portrayed as the central character. Plus I look beyond what the book says on paper, and the indirect character development through actions and stuff is good enough for me. But, with that said, I also wouldn't mind seeing more of Obi-Wan in the story; it's one of the reasons I enjoy JA fanfics so much.

But in the end, whatever is published, I'll read without complaint.. Speaking of which, JA16 should be out soon......

 

Yeah. What Jedi-Faith said. Sorry, I wasn't avoiding the question I just wasn't around much the last couple days.

Besides I did make suggestions and I did point out specifically the sort the way I thought it could go. Not with storylines but simply in terms of character focus. Have you ever read one of Watson's interviews? Her favoritism is really quite obvious.

I wasn't suggesting the books should be longer, I wasn't suggesting they should be more violent, I wasn't suggesting the situations be more "adult", I wasn't even suggesting Qui-Gon be treated like the average adult in a YA book, which is to say given very little attention at all. I was suggesting she should have switched Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's places in terms of her attention level to them. Obi-Wan should have been getting the attention and development she was giving Qui-Gon and at worst I was suggesting Qui-Gon should have been getting the attention level Obi-Wan has been getting. Maybe it is "easier" to focus on Qui-Gon because he's the stereotypical rebel character BUT easier does not mean correct(remember the path to the Darkside ).

The books were entitled Jedi Apprentice, thus it was the job of the author to focus on the apprentice in the manner in which she instead focused on the master EVEN if it was a little more difficult for her to do so.

However, tommorow is the release of JA #16, so maybe this will be one of those "good Obi-Wan" books and I won't want to toss it across the room when I'm finished with it.

 

Oooooooooooh, Naw Ibo, you are SO going to hate the summary for JA17: The Only Witness...

From amazon.com:

Qui-Gon Jinn's heart is not in his work. After the death of his truest love, he is finding it hard to continue on as a Jedi Knight. When he and his apprentice, Obi-Wan, are sent to a hostile planet to protect the only witness willing to testify against an evil crime family, he finds it hard to focus. Qui-Gon must find a way to keep the peace fighting both his foes who attack and the enemies within.

And the QG-centered storylines continue, proabably right up to the very end of the series...

 

What do we have to do to get a "barf" icon here on the boards? Has Jude been watching too many soap operas or what...?!!!

 

LOL! Well, I'm hoping that Amazon got the description wrong. They messed up JA14's description, maybe they warped this one too...

 

Well there goes my theory of what is on the cover of "The Only Witness".......
I honestly thought that the eye belonged to one of the twins, as much as I hate say it,JA#17 sounds very generic, girls see's something she wasn't, bad guys want her dead, must tell the truth for the greater good,etc,etc, so I am really hoping that ther messed up the summary.

 

LOL!! Jedi-Faith, you are right. I hate it. LOL!! But I'm not surprised. Maybe in Book #18 they'll just leave Obi-Wan back at the Temple where at least he might actually have the chance to learn something besides babysitting Qui-Gon. Why have him in the books if he isn't going to be put to good use?

And the worst part about it, I'm going buy the dang thing anyway.

 

Well, got me a copy of #16 this weekend, read it through (takes me about 45 minutes), and thought..."Wow, this is really lame."

All the negativity that's been displayed in this thread is absolutely spot-on. It's really a shame that Jude Watson has been allowed to change the focus of these books to Qui-Gon.

The plot was poor, serving only to bring about this revenge storyline. It's too bad that Obi-Wan has been shown to be powerless and ineffectual. I'm hoping that she'll remember that the title is "Jedi Apprentice" and redeem herself and her characters in the next one. After all, we've only got two more to look forward to. Time to get back on track.

I'm with you, naw ibo -- I, too, will buy them and read them, even so...LOL

 

Hmmm... I actually thought JA16 was one of the better books in the series. Obi-Wan wasn't powerless; he actually saved Qui-Gon by discovering... errrr... maybe I shouldn't spoil it.

And I thought this saga was overall the best in terms of style. Putting the romance-vengeance plot aside, the delivery was done well. I couldn't tell who was good and who was bad, so the aspect of mystery was there until Obi-Wan reflected on all the events that have taken place. It wasn't like the last one where I totally knew it was Zan Arbor right after reading JA11. This time, all the hints were there, but not obvious enough to spoil the ending; it's kinda like watching the Sixth Sense before and after they tell you about the theme of red.

I did, however, dislike the "voice" that stopped Qui-Gon... it really should have been Obi-Wan, not Tahl. I mean, the whole time, Obi-Wan is thinking and dreading a showdown with Qui-Gon if it came to that, and yet when it should have come to that, he just stood there and watched. That's the one complaint I have about the book.

Other than that, I really enjoyed it.

 

<<Hmmm... I actually thought JA16 was one of the better books in the series. Obi-Wan wasn't powerless; he actually saved Qui-Gon by discovering... errrr... maybe I shouldn't spoil it.>>

I think my criticism has more to do with the overall "tone" of what the series has become; a vehicle for QG to wreak vengeance.

<<And I thought this saga was overall the best in terms of style. Putting the romance-vengeance plot aside, the delivery was done well. I couldn't tell who was good and who was bad, so the aspect of mystery was there until Obi-Wan reflected on all the events that have taken place.>>

That's very true, Jedi-Faith. I confess that my "opinion" on the book is being colored by what Watson has done with the new direction the series has taken.

<<I did, however, dislike the "voice" that stopped Qui-Gon... it really should have been Obi-Wan, not Tahl.>>

This is too funny -- that is exactly what I thought! It should have been Obi-Wan. He should have been given "the chance" to influence the outcome. Watson has done that in previous books, yet she ignores it in this one. Too bad.