Why does Obi Wan have such a hard time dueling Dooku?

Bonafide swordplay? No, no, no, these are light saber duels. They are different. Star Wars is fake.

 

I love it Yosifett, love it. These are fictional characters doing fictional duels with fictional technology!! HAHAh

 

The choreography was based on Kendo, as an homage to the Samurai series of films and Hidden Fortress.

I don't know what the Prequel Trilogy is but, it isn't Kendo.

Dooku however is said to be a fencer, though in truth he does nothing in the films to suggest that, save one small moment in AOTC when Anakin opens up on him with two blades concurrently, and Dooku adopts a straight line fencing style, retreating and parrying from 6 to 8 position repeatedly.

 

wait a second joshuavance didn't you post like a masterpiece essay on all of the styles of combat featured or am I dreaming something? I remember hearing either Ewan or Samuel Jackson or Nick Gillard talking about the Jedi style of the PT utilizing bits from everything even chopping down a tree or baseball like swings. I thought that really spoke to the Jedi's versed styles. But I really don't know much about Swordplay, just that I liked the duels in the PT as much or more than the OT. In fact my favorite skilled/choreographed duel was Maul vs. Obi wan. One of my favorite emotional duels was ROTJ Luke vs Vader, but my overall favorite has to be Anakin vs Obi Wan. And coming back to the Anakin Obi Wan vs Dooku part deux , Dooku, just has Obi's number. Obi Wan is at the pinnacle of his sabre skills by AOTC and Anakin is not. That's why Dooku defeated them both in Aotc. However, Anakin surpasses Obi Wan and Dooku by ROTS. That's why Anakin defeats and executes Dooku.

 

obi wan was the most fastesest of all jedis when dealing with mall but not when it came to master of the old school dookio

I think Anakin looked the fastest when he was fighting Obi-Wan. Even the Yoda vs. the Emperor duel might have been faster than the Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul duel.

 

That wasn't me Half Wit, though it's nice to be put in the same category as Gillard etc Heh heh heh. Yes, I can see how you could easily be confused.


Obi-Wan the pinnacle of his lightsaber skill in AOTC?

I have to strongly disagree with that. The AOTC Obi-Wan could not have defeated the ROTS Vader, ROTS Grievous, or the AOTC Dooku.

The ROTS Obi-Wan defeated the ROTS Grievous and ROTS Vader but was beaten by the ROTS Dooku. (Though the circumstances are highly debateable)

The ANH Obi-Wan stalemated the ANH Vader.

So this by necessity means the AOTC Obi-Wan is far inferior to the ANH Obi-Wan given the 23 year time gap, as well as the ROTS Obi-Wan who was clearly superior to the AOTC Obi-Wan, but likely inferior to the ANH Obi-Wan. See?

My head hurts. Behind my left eye.

 

Well sinceGrevious nor Vader fought Obi wan in Aotc, we only are left with one judge of skill for Obi- Wan. That is the only opponenet we can base Obi-Wan's skills upon is Dooku, he failed to defeat him in Aotc and ROTS, thus not showing much of a dueling skill increase. I am sure he could hang with Vader and Grevious if he fought them in AOTC, Grevious was Dooku's student remember, not Dooku. So yeah We'll agree to disagree on something neither of us can really prove, going by the films alone.

 

Yeah, but since people love pointing out the little Gillard power and skill rankings, supposedly Obi-Wan graduated from a 7 to an 8 from AOTC to ROTS.

I actually thought Obi-Wan seemed a little weaker in AOTC than even TPM. I chalked it up to having focused on Anakin's training at the expense of his own skills for the last 10 years.

 

I also think that he just didn't go at Dooku with the same intensity that he did Maul. Anakin took the fight to Dooku pretty hard, but Obi-Wan seemed more interested in taking him in or getting some answers. I think it may have something to do with Qui-Gon, or maybe Obi-Wan sympathizes with Dooku a little bit after his inquisition on Geonosis.

 

I think the reason Obi-Wan seems to struggle against Dooku is a deliberate theme by Lucas,

If you notice in the films, anytime a student/teacher duo begins fighting each other, the student always comes up on the short end of the stick, as though Lucas is saying "you haven't learned everything quite yet, I still know a bit more".

Dooku couldn't take Yoda
Obi-Wan couldn't take Dooku
Vader couldn't take Obi-Wan

Dooku was sort of a Qui-Gon by proxy. Like a mirror universe evil Qui-Gon or even evil Old Ben.

It's like a deliberate nod of respect on Lucas' part to the role of "The Master in a student/teacher relationship."

 

I have to give it to you, this is one of the most well thought-out theories I've heard.

 

Thanks Yosh,


but somewhere a great while back, and I swear I can't recall where it was, I read that there is some type of flaw in the Yoda dynasty lineage of training: Yoda,Dooku,Qui-Gon,Obi-Wan,Anakin,Luke


The crap thing is, I don't even recall what the flaw was in the lineage of training. I don't believe this was an official qoute but, maybe Lord Sinister the master of qoutations recalls what it was, I'm not sure.

But, the fact two members of the lineage fell to the Darkside implies a great deal.

 

The crap thing is, I don't even recall what the flaw was in the lineage of training. I don't believe this was an official qoute but, maybe Lord Sinister the master of qoutations recalls what it was, I'm not sure.

In the Homing Beacon #126, Gillard said: "There's a line of training through Darth Tyranus and Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin. You can follow that line, and there's an aggressive fault in that line. Mace isn't of that line, and that allows you to give him unique talents."

 

Yes. The psychology of the master - pupil lineage, a factor it is.

 

Thanks Farell that's a good qoute, I'm not sure that's what it was but, that's the only thing semi-related I've read that sounds about right.

So violence and agression is the flaw then.

Yoda is the pacifist, Dooku a maverick.

Dooku passes that down to Qui-Gon, who in turn is a maverick, but reels his tendencies in far more than Dooku.

Qui-Gon passes the maverick notion down to Obi-Wan, who is a maverick slightly when much younger, but then becomes a very by the book textbook Yoda type Jedi later in life.

Anakin is the definition of maverick.

Luke is a maverick but like Obi-Wan, reels it in when a bit older and becomes the textbook type Yoda Jedi.


EDIT MESSAGE 1:

But you know, we have never really seen Yoda in his prime and youth, he could have been a damn rebel and wild man. He seemed quite spunky and feisty in TESB.
And you know how it is, real quiet, laid back people late in life were wild asses in their youth.

 

I think that Yoda may have been a crappier teacher than we all imagined he would be. I think he's been getting by for 800 years because, without the Sith, there wasn't as much temptation for his pupils. There was no true enemy. I think he did his best work on Dagobah. Being alone in that swamp with nothing but the ghosts of the past to haunt him put everything in perspective for him. The knowledge and skills were always there, just bogged down in tradition, procedures, philosophy, bureaucracy, and entrenched dogma. The Jedi Temple and the snotty, elitist views of the Council stiffled everything he knew about the Force. Yoda needed Luke for redemption just as much as Vader did.

 

Interesting. So Qui Gonn's death was massively significant. If he hadn't died when he did, meaning Obiwan became far more influenced by Yoda, there may have been less of a philosophical conflict between Obiwan and Anakin and things may have unfolded differently.

 

Right Sith Rising, exactly.


Even though it's a E.U. concept, that's where I believe the Unifying versus Living Force differentiation really came into play.

I think Yoda and Obi-Wan in their respective exiles really adopted a more unified notion and perception of the Force itself, marrying the two distinct philosophies to result in a more effective training regiment for Luke.

Qui-Gon seemed to deny the Unifying Force.

"I have a bad feeling about this."- Obi-Wan sensing Sidious and the greater plot
"I don't sense anything." - Qui-Gon

It seems that Qui-Gon was the opposite extreme of Yoda and Obi-Wan.

By the time of ANH, you have everyone beginning to sound like everyone else.
Qui-Gon undoubtedly upon his death learned that the Unifying Force or bigger picture was quite important and significant.
Likewise, Yoda and Ben learned that always thinking about the future and the bigger picture isn't the right way to go either.
So then you have Luke at the very end: a Jedi trained the way a Jedi should be. A true Jedi. With the capacity to love and have interpersonal relationships and live in the moment, but also having aspects of the Unifying Force and bigger picture. Minus all of the stagnant dogma, tradition, etc.


EDIT:

Unifying Force = Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi
Living Force = Qui-Gon Jinn
Living Force + Unifying Force = Luke Skywalker well trained Jedi

 

this must be the first time in histroy of TFN that we agree.

 

Yoda is not a crappy teacher you just don't see him teach much.

 

so sad that we cant agree in 2 posts in a row...

dooku cant take yoda but he doesnt get knocked out unconcious or cut in both legs and arms.in the only fight they had they looked pretty equal with a saber too me.

dooku was not obi wan's master,he was qui gon's master and the fact that kenobi survived the maul duel as a padawan while qui gon died a master makes me think that ROTS kenobi is MUCH MUCH better with a saber than qui gon ....but so is dooku.

 

I didn't mean that he was unqualified to teach, or that he didn't know what he was doing, just that he may not have been as wise during the PT as we imagined him to be when we saw TESB in 1980. He was experienced and wise, but had as much to learn about certain aspect of the Force as a Padawan. He was blind to what was happening all around him, but I guess nobody, regardless of their skill with the Force, can sense everything. Yoda can't sense Palpatine's trap, and Palpatine can't sense that Vader is 5 seconds away from hurling him over a railing.

 

Obi-wan could not beat Dooku yet because Dooku does have more experiance then Obi-wan and he was his master's master. after Episode 3 Obi-wan would have gone to level 9 and improved more if thing did not happen the way it did in episode 3.

 

i think that the "master of his master" logic is mostly psicological.

we cant know if obi wan post Rots would be 9.

 

Of course we can by everything that is established in the films.


1. Age is irrelevant to Force ability, indeed, the older an individual is the greater they seem to get IN the Force.

2. A character certainly doesn't weaken over time, as in each subsequent film the characters are only stronger.

3. Obi-Wan is a level 8 in ROTS. ANH takes place 20 years later. That's 20 years of Force growth.

It's kinda an unspoken given he would almost HAVE to be a 9 by then.

It's merely a logical inference. Remember when ANH came out, we didn't have cozy little ranking systems.