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Why Does Palpatine Need Vader?

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, Jun 4, 2005.

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  1. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Don't get me wrongo, I understand why Palps would want to corrupt the Chosen One to his side.

    But it's like he NEEDS Anakin in some way - maybe to find the infamous power to extend life and save people from dying?

    Maybe Anakin DID discover that power, like he told Padme: "Love can't save you, Padme - only my new powers can do that."

    Palps is bragging about Vader to Yoda, then he gets freaked out when he senses Vader in trouble.

    Then he's obviously visibly relieved when he sees Vader still struggling on the lava bank.

    Then, After the Helmet, he is fairly tentative when speaking to Vader.

    This seems to go beyond Palpatine simply wanting to have another apprentice to continue the Sith line....
     
  2. Jedi knight Pozzi

    Jedi knight Pozzi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2000
    I imagine that it's as simple as Palpatine knowing a good bet when he sees one. :)
     
  3. stinrab

    stinrab Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    GARTH_MAUL posted on 6/4/05 12:32am

    But it's like he NEEDS Anakin in some way - maybe to find the infamous power to extend life and save people from dying?
    [hr][/blockquote]

    I think Palpatine already knows that power - at least the power to extend life, anyway. Afterall, how old do we think he is? He's got to be nearing 100 in ROTJ!
     
  4. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    This is the most complicated and interesting part of the film. Call me crazy - I think he cares about Anakin. He's known him for 20 years, and he's probably the only creature in the universe who he shares a 'human' relationship with. Sure, he's pure evil, the epitome of a monster, but he is still human. Just like Palpatine is the only family Anakin has left after ROTS (as far as he knows) so is Anakin the only family Palpatine has.

    Palpatine is like an abusive father, or an abusive pet owner. Anakin/Vader is like a child or pet to him. Sure, he'd trade him in for a better one, but I think in some sick and twisted way he likes having him around.

    Those 'compassionate' scenes at the end of ROTS really change Palpatine's character, I think in a very interesting way.
     
  5. Jedi Greg Maddux

    Jedi Greg Maddux Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 1999
    Short answer: Cuz Ani's still younger and more powerful than Dooku.

    Long answer: See short answer, with incessant wordiness.
     
  6. Darth_Surgent

    Darth_Surgent Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2004
    "Call me crazy - I think he cares about Anakin."

    I agree.
     
  7. Latorski

    Latorski Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2002
    I agree Palpatine likes Anakin. He also knows that Anakin, as a Jedi, has the potential to defeat him. As Sith master and apprentice, however, Palpatine and Darth Vader would be unbeatable.

    But I also feel it goes beyond simple political strategy and Jedi-Sith rivalry. Darth Vader is, in many ways, like a son. Way back in TPM, I always felt Sidious had a great deal of pride in (and even some affection for) Darth Maul. Dooku was more of a business partner. Palpatine is close with Anakin and there is a twisted father-son relationship there.
    Palpatine also thinks of Anakin as something special: a gift from the Force, perfection, a thing of beauty, a work of art. As a Sith, developing an apprentice as powerful as Darth Vader is Palpatine's greatest accomplishment.

    In bragging to Yoda and rushing to Mustafar, Palpatine is acting like a proud father and protecting something he views as a once-in-a-lifetime creation.
     
  8. episodenone

    episodenone Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2001
    perhaps the answer lies in a different question...

    why do the JEDI need anakin?

    the easy answer? to bring balance yada yada yada.

    but seriously...

    i cant remember anakin's line...
    but i remember palpy's [kinda] ... "the jedi need you anakin... more than you know"

    thus what does palpy really need [and want]? power ... unlimited power.
    who has that simply by being born? anakin.

    and how bad does palps need anakin? well, what he needs is the jedi to NOT have him!!
     
  9. hew

    hew Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 1999
    "In bragging to Yoda and rushing to Mustafar, Palpatine is acting like a proud father and protecting something he views as a once-in-a-lifetime creation."

    Yeah, by bragging to Yoda he's rubbing it in that he's stolen the Jedi's prize pupil away and turned him against them. But I see his rush to Mustafar as merely protecting his investment, not an act of compassion. He spent a lot of time seducing Anakin to the Dark Side, and the Jedi Purge has left him with few Force users to pick a new apprentice from.
     
  10. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 11, 2003

    After seeing that twisted smile he gives the camera after telling Vader he killed Padme, I don't believe he cared about Anakin anymore then he cared about Maul.
     
  11. Jomero

    Jomero Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 1999
    "After seeing that twisted smile he gives the camera after telling Vader he killed Padme, I don't believe he cared about Anakin anymore then he cared about Maul."

    I'm inclined to agree. And he had no problems with the idea of Luke offing Vader. I don't think Palpatine has a true caring bone in his body. He's the ultimate evil. He is almost literally the Devil.
     
  12. Worst_Jedi_Ever

    Worst_Jedi_Ever Jedi Master star 1

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    Jan 13, 2004
    After seeing that twisted smile he gives the camera after telling Vader he killed Padme, I don't believe he cared about Anakin anymore then he cared about Maul.

    This is a really interesting point, and there has been some discussion about the motivation for Palpy's lie. In the context of this thread, maybe he's telling Vader what he thinks DV needs to hear? It's kind of a tradtion among Force-using masters in the series to manipulate the truth to further a greater aim, don't forget. Obi tells Luke that Vader murdered Anakin not only because it's "true from a CPOV", but to protect him. Might not Palpy be doing the same thing, only to fulfill the Sith intention of increasing Vader's power by increasing his anger and suffering? Still fatherly, like Obi to Luke, but with a very different intention, and a very different definition of caring. Just a thought.
     
  13. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2001
    Two points have come up in this thread...

    Does Sidous care for Anakin? I think he does. If you believe this, then you see it in how he leans over Anakin on Mustafar etc. but it's inconclusive. There's plenty of reason to think he doesn't.

    Why does the Emperor 'need' Anakin? Interesting question. Looking at how well Order 66 went, you could see his plan coming to fruition with any good Sith Apprentice. How would it have failed with Maul or Dooku? I think the key is that Anakin is 'there.' If he wasn't, any Sith would do, but here he is with unlimited Force potential. If Sidous wants to resotre the Sith and wipe out the Jedi, he needs Anakin because Anakin will be either a friend or enemy, nothing in between. He's the wild card that must be controlled and owned for Sidious risks everything.
     
  14. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    The greatest facial expression in all of SW is when Palpatine tells Anakin, the "reveal" scene: "You can learn to the power to stop Padme from dying". Then he does this creepy little grin, and Anakin is obviously a little freaked out that Palps knows....
     
  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I would agree that there's no way he cared about Anakin anymore than Maul.

    After all, Anakin he only spent some 15 years with.

    Maul he actually raised from infancy to adulthood, teaching him everything he knows about the world, etc. If there was anytime that love was going to be inspired in Palpatine, I would have to guess it would be during this "parenting" experience.
     
  16. Spare_Parts

    Spare_Parts Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    ^ Well if you believe Sidious created Anakin then his ?parenting? experience would be more genuine for Anakin than Maul.

    The trouble with the Sith is you don?t know when they?re lying and when they?re telling the truth. It?s almost as bad as the Jedi?s ?certain point of view? excuse.

    If Sidious did create Anakin then he must be pretty powerful. I don?t see why he would need an apprentice that would be even more powerful than himself unless he could offer Sidious something in return. For example having enough power to stop people from dying.

    I kinda like the idea that Sidious is looking for a way to stop death so he can never lose his power. Like he said in the opera scene the fear of losing power is the greatest fear for those who have power.

    By using Anakin maybe he can stop this from happening. Anakin is so tormented by the fact his actions killed Padme he is on a never ending quest to use Sidious? knowledge of the darkside to bring her back. That?s why he can?t kill him and become the Sith master himself. I mean why after all this time when he resents being held back under Obi?s guidance does he suddenly continue to serve under another master in the OT?

    So in a way Sidious and Vader need each other and kinda form a Sith symbiosis. Sidious needs Anakin?s power and Anakin needs Sidious? knowledge of the darkside, but both are trying to find the secret to stopping death.
     
  17. darthpigskin

    darthpigskin Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Does he actually care about him? Yes, I think so, but only because he needs someone to be his lackey.

    Sure Palps is powerful, but he has to have someone to be his 'hand' (and I'm not talking about Mara Jade). He needs to have Vader to send him to do the dirty business. Yes, Stormtroopers can be one of his tools, but they're limited. Vader has to be the one to be the mediator for Palps.
     
  18. Soothsayer

    Soothsayer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 1999
    I think he knew Anakin was to be the most powerful 'force user' and he wanted to us his abilities for his own self-fish goals.

    Palps stats that together they can learn, ie, prolonging life. Palpatine wanted to learn the things that he felt only Anakin could teach him. Yes Palpatine would have to teach Anakin lots but in the end Anakin was destined to be stronger and Palpatine wanted to use that power.
     
  19. Ellbobin

    Ellbobin Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Because Anakin would Kick his ass if he was on the Jedi's side.
     
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