Why does ROTS' opening pretend Palpatine is not Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by -maynard-, Aug 16, 2005.

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  1. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    i dont get it. in anakin/obi-wan vs. dooku, the camera cuts to palpatine cheering the Jedi like he's at a baseball game

    dooku obviously knows who he is-the whole thing was staged.

    who in the audience doesnt know who palpatine is? excluding the OT, the guy under the hood is clearly Palpatine. why else would this palpatine guy be plastered all over the movies if he was completely innocent?

    its painfully obvious who he was, that his cheering was an insult to anyone's intelligence

    somebody? anybody?
  2. COMMANDER76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    they left it that way for all the kiddies that don't know
  3. Darth_Fruit_Fly Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2005
    star 4
    If Palpatine would have revealed himself at THIS juncture, Anakin and Obi-Wan would have killed him. It's as simple as that.
  4. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    I guess to anybody who has not read the novel, it would appear that Dooku does not know that Palps/Sid's are the same Person.
  5. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
  6. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    My 7 year old son didn't realize that Sidious and Palpatine were the same person
    until Anakin turned. This is the same moment my son realized that OT Darth Vader
    was Anakin. It was an awesome moment of discovery to experience with my child.
    It was, really, the only way to recreate the ESB surprise of my childhood.

    Kudos to GL for crafting the tale that way. It was a fanatastic parent/child
    moment.
  7. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    he doesnt have to reveal himself. he just doesnt have to cheer like Manny Ramirez just parked one
  8. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    ok. but what about when dooku tells obi-wan in AOTC that a dark lord of the sith has control of the republic and hundred of senators on under that lord's influence?

    he didnt know who that person was?
  9. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Well, I think Dooku was just playing on Obi Wan's attachment to Qui Gon and
    desire to save the Republic. It was the "join me, and together" moment of
    AOTC akin to ESB. I think Dooku absolutely knew who and what Palpatine was,
    especially since he was not latched to Coruscant and blinded by the darkside
    in the manner of the Jedi council.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Not everyone figured out Palpatine was Sidious. Some foolishly believed that there was a twist. A clone, a twin or genetic freak. Something. But for storytelling purposes, Lucas treats the PT as if it's someone's first time watching the Saga in order. Or for someone who has seen the clues planted and are making the connection. Palpatine must continue with his charade until the time has come, which is does when he reveals himself to Anakin. This sequence is designed to make the audience start to realize, if they haven't already, that Palpatine is not the benevolent figure that he seems to be.

    And Dooku does know that Palpatine is Sidious, even without the books to help you. His shocked look is one of betrayal. Not to mention that he never once makes an advance on killing Palpatine, during the duel, would be a huge clue. His whole speech to Obi-wan was a double front. First, to get Obi-wan to join the Sith so that they could grow in rank and file. Second, if that failed, to confuse the Jedi and sow the seeds of their eventual destruction. They'll figure it out sooner or later and come knocking on Palpatine's door. Only he'll be ready for it and will use it to sanction "Order 66." Third, Dooku's unaware that he's setting up his own demise.
  11. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    good point,but all he say's is :

    OBI-WAN: The truth?

    COUNT DOOKU: The truth. What if I told you that the
    Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the
    Sith?

    OBI-WAN: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware
    of it.

    COUNT DOOKU: The dark side of the Force has clouded their
    vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the
    influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

    OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.



    This does not suggest that he know's Sideous/Palpatine's true identity
  12. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    What are you people talking about? He didn't do the little cheer to confuse the audiance. The Jedi were holding their own against Dooku. He wasn't "faking" anything. He had no further use for Dooku. He wanted Dooku to lose. He was cheering Anakin on.
  13. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    This does not suggest that he know's Sideous/Palpatine's true identity

    Actually, it does. He basically tells Obi-Wan the whole truth, he just leaves out the words "Supreme", "Chancellor" and "Palpatine".

    BTW: It's not obvious to everyone that Palpatine is Sidious. Let it go.



    This kind of anger is so unnecessary
    /LM
  14. SithOWNtheJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 3
    I have tons of friends who arent into star wars have no clue at all that palpatine was sidious
  15. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    A lot of people who are not really SW fans but casual viewers weren't aware of the Palps=Sidious identity. Perhaps even the majority of the "normal" viewers weren't aware, I guess. I even know people who call themselves fans and weren't aware until ROTS.
  16. sithjoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2002
    star 2
    I read the book before going to see the movie, and I never got the impression that DT didn't know about Palps being Sids????

    Sids was meant to help him if things got out of hand anyway.

    As for the pretense, well he needed Anakin to repeat his failure at the Tusken camp, and murder again. Yes, it was a fair fight and all that, but he chose to murder DT.

    When the time was right, Yoda away saving Wookies, Jedi council spread far and wide, then Palps played his trump card and 'everything proceeded as I have predicted..."

    As far as the movie goes, believe it or not, there were some people who actually didn't know that Palps = Sids.

    I for one am glad of this, as it makes ROTS watchable as a stand alone movie to the non-fan, as well as the third chapter in the series for us fans.
  17. BothofUs Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2003
    star 4
    What are you people talking about? He didn't do the little cheer to confuse the audiance. The Jedi were holding their own against Dooku. He wasn't "faking" anything. He had no further use for Dooku. He wanted Dooku to lose. He was cheering Anakin on.

    I agree. He didn't even want Dooku to win!
  18. 3_Foot_Jedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 1
    Also, I've not seen TPM for a while but I seem to remember that at the end when Qui-Gonn's body is burning the camara focuses in on Palpatine while they are dicussing whether or not they had killed the Master or the Apprentice, which is the first time I became aware of it.
  19. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Sidious acts like a coward because it is what's needed to turn Anakin, and to contrast Return of the Jedi's climax, plain and simple.
    I actually thought it was cool how they pretended like we didn't know who Palpitine really was -Lucas knows 90% of people watching realised it already anyway. It's like a comedy, almost. The Opening crawl is also from character POV rather than audience POV, describing Dooku as the Sith Lord, and the situation as a kidnapping.
    If you don't agree that there is a ROTJ link at all, read the Revenge of the Sith/Return of The Jedi thread on the Saga forum before you start with the flames =P~
  20. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    I noticed that just last week, it had been a long time since I watched TPM, and it was the first time I noticed it as well, nice foreshadowing by GL.

    I agree as well. It looked to me like he was rooting for the more promising apprentice, Anakin.
  21. Palpy560 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2005
    star 4
    I figured out Palpatine was Sidious at the end of Epiosde I when the camera pans to his side after Yoda and Mace talk.
    Dooku knew the truth as did Maul.
    The only inner-circle bad guys who didn't know were Jango and GG.
    And it was probably done for the kids.
    Which I can appriciate. It's sort of like a mystery that parents and older kids realize but the little one's do not and so when he reveals himself they are like "coooool!"
    (I was too, even though I knew, that was such a nice job by Ian)
  22. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2005
    star 1
    Dude, Palpatine has a multi-personality dis-order in which HE can control. He is in his Chancellor mindset during the whole begening, with some of his true self seeping through. Sidious is like God, dude. Grow up and get saved!
  23. Sidious_T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2004
    star 4
    How is it that after the movie, the book, the rumors,some people just don't get it??
  24. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2005
    star 1
    Are you reffering to me, Sidios T?

    I don't know what you are talking about if you are.

    I don't personally like the character of Sidous at all. I love Palpatine but as Sidous I hate him. Hated him since 83. What a cheesy villan. His first scene in ROTJ cracks me up everytime and thats not GOOOD. Ruined ROTJ IMO.


    Hahahahahahahaha!

    What a joke....
  25. Lord_NoONE Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2001
    star 5
    It's all about illusion for the uninitiated. GL just took his time setting up the remainder of the story for the audience. It's also got a lot to do with the internal consistency of the storyline. The characters do not yet know that P=S and therefore the storyteller cannot pretend otherwise.
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