Why does Sidious bother following the rule of two?

Sidious seems to be very manipulative and sure of himself. Why would such a powerful Sith lord be so beholded to an old tradition?

 

he's confident but he's no fool

a Sith wants control, a Sith yearns for power, more Sith would mean he could be overthrown

just look at the OT, Vader alone can't do anything to Palpie but as soon as he's with Luke they manage to overthrow him(though not as Sith)

 

He may not want too many Sith he can't trust them all one could be a Jedi undercover or something and with too many Sith he can't be the ruler much longer

 

The best way to understand the rule of two is to realize that it is essentially a description of the Sith's nature, not the expression of someone else's will.

You are correct in that Sidious would never obey another person's will. If the rule of two were simply an order given by a previous Sith, Palps would ignore it. But although headstrong and proud people can always resist orders and instructions, noone can resist his or her own nature.

 

I think the rule of 2 is something Palpatine considers to his advantage, as it limits the number of possible people trying to take his positions of power.

With Darth Maul, he had a effective and willing killing machine, just waiting for the chance to kill jedi. But he got overconfident and Obi-Wan took him down. Perhaps, Darth Sidious sent Darth Maul to Naboo...knowing he would be destroyed, and eliminating a possible threat later on.

Darth Maul would have been awesome in the arena battle...but he was not the type of person to act as leader of the Seperatist movement. Hence, the arrival of Count Dooku..."the patsy" in Palpatine's climb to the top. Here's a guy who's purpose is to be "leader" of the side that has to lose the Clone Wars for Palpatine to assume control.

Darth Sideous "bothers" with the rule of two, because it ensure he doesn't have to look over BOTH shoulders.

 

What is the benefits of being a Sith apprentice if your never going to be a master,EVER!

One more question, Since the PT started Luca$ has not explained once why there are only two Sith at a time, All I got for my $8.95 was "Always two there are,no more no less a master and an apprentice".

Why?

He could have cut out the pod race scene if he needed room to explain this.

 

>>>What is the benefits of being a Sith apprentice if your never going to be a master,EVER!

Power.

>>>One more question, Since the PT started Luca$ has not explained once why there are only two Sith at a time, All I got for my $8.95 was "Always two there are,no more no less a master and an apprentice".

Why?

Why?
There is no "why"!




The Sith are an evil version of the Jedi. They are a corruption of the Jedi's knowledge, traditions and ideals. Hence "he was well trained in the Jedi Arts- my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith lord."

The Jedi train an apprentice, in order to pass on what they have learnt to another generation. A Jedi can't train more than one apprentice at a time- they have to wait until their apprentice is ready to go out on their own before they can train another.

On the other hand, the Sith don't train apprentices in order to share their knowledge or their power, or to continue the Sith line. They do it so that they have a lackey around to do what they're told. Or in Palpatine's case, so that he can attend to his masterplan without risking getting into trouble at the hands of a couple of lightsaber-wielding Jedi.

So there's no point at which a Sith would let their apprentice "graduate" and train another one. Why would they? What would they gain? Two evil apprentices, who would probably end up fighting each other?


Anyway, to return to the topic, Palpatine does kind of ignore the "Rule" in ROTJ, when he tries to turn Luke to the Dark Side while he's still got Vader. The result; the Sith wipe each other out.

 

Rules are made to be followed.

 

"What is the benefits of being a Sith apprentice if your never going to be a master,EVER!

Power."

What power.The only one with power is the master while the apprentice has to wait for the master to retire or die in order to be the new master.A Sith is basicially an evil version of a Jedi knight so I don't see them demonstrating any new power that they can't learn as a Jedi.

One more question, Since the PT started Luca$ has not explained once why there are only two Sith at a time, All I got for my $8.95 was "Always two there are,no more no less a master and an apprentice".

Why?
There is no "why"!


That where the problem is Scott.Your reason may be accurately telling the Sith origin unfortunately that has not been given in the movie so only die-hard fans would know this but what about casual movie goer who don't know the SW history.

Just throwing out the word Sith and 2 doesn't cut it without any explaining as to why because someone with logic will come along and dissect this weak theory asking a question like this:


1.Why would an apprentice want to be an apprentice forever?

2. How come 1,000 Jedi's can't destroy 2 Sith's(A group that has been around for years)

3.What makes a Sith more powerful than a Jedi? "lightning"

It just doesn't add up.


P.S. It's a stupid rule that has not been explained.

 

The Rule of 2 is something inherent to the Sith Order. If there are 3 or more, they would be fighting amongst themselves until one of them died, leaving 2 again. That's just the way it works.

 

Was this even said in the movie?!!!

 

No, it wasn't said in the movies... but if you read the Jedi Vs. Sith comics, you'd see why the rule of two was created by Darth Bane.

 

Queen_Leia,

>>>What power.The only one with power is the master while the apprentice has to wait for the master to retire or die in order to be the new master.A Sith is basicially an evil version of a Jedi knight so I don't see them demonstrating any new power that they can't learn as a Jedi.

What power? The power to fight with a lightsaber, do telekenesis, shoot lightning from your fingertips etc. etc. etc.

a) What makes you think that every Sith had the opportunity to be a Jedi?
b) Sith have more power than Jedi, because they aren't restricted by the Jedi's philosophy of avoiding the Dark Side.

>>>Just throwing out the word Sith and 2 doesn't cut it without any explaining as to why because someone with logic will come along and dissect this weak theory asking a question like this:

1.Why would an apprentice want to be an apprentice forever?

What makes you think that a) they would want to be an apprentice forever and b) that they plan to be an apprentice forever? (Is this something from the novelisation?)

I would assume that the apprentice would plan on one day becoming the master. I know Vader did, and I think Dooku does...

>>>2. How come 1,000 Jedi's can't destroy 2 Sith's(A group that has been around for years)

Because they don't know they exist- they think they have been wiped out (as is made perfectly clear in TPM) and they haven't been able to find them inbetween TPM and AOTC.

>>>3.What makes a Sith more powerful than a Jedi? "lightning"

Kind of. It's the unrestricted use of the power of the Force.


Anyway, it looks to me as if you're just complaining about stuff in the books etc. that isn't in the movie, which has been the case ever since books and films told the same story, and probably always will.

The reason for the "Rule Of Two" isn't directly explained in the film. This is because it is no more important to the story than (for example) the Jedi "rule" of not using the Force for attack. So long as you know that it's something in place, then you know what you need to know. And there's enough information in the films for the viewer to figure it out for themselves.

If you come away from the film wanting to know more, but lacking the imagination to figure it out for yourself, then go and $pend $ome money one of the many "£uca$" approved books out there...

 

You bring up some good points, Scott.
At the end of the comic series Jedi Vs. Sith, the Dark Lords use the Thought Bomb, wiping out all but Darth Bane (because he was strong enough and far away enough to avoid it) and also the character he takes on as his apprentice. This is where the Jedi fall into the belief that the Sith have been destroyed. Although it doesn't state that directly, I know I'd think they were all dead... They came back once... who says they can't do it again?

 

Jedi/Sith history 101
In the beginning the Sith were Jedi that began to experiment with the effects of the force under emotional states like anger, fear, and hatred.
Most of the other Jedi did not like that so they kicked out these Jedi which then moved onto the enexplored area of the galaxy and carved out a nice little empire for themselves, and continue to explore the darkerside of the force.
Eventually the Darklords of the Sith were rediscovered by the mainstream Jedi and the first great Sith war ensued. the jedi won and the original darklords of the Sith were wiped out.
However years later a Jedi fell to the darkside and discovered some lost tome of Sith teaching, studied it, and started teaching it to as many appretices as he could gather to form a new sith order to take over the galaxy and crush the Jedi.
Another Sith war occured. the Sith lost, were wiped out until another Jedi fell to the darkside and found some Sith teachings. And so it went on and on until finally a thousand years before the prequels at the last sith war one Sithlord (Darth Bane) realized they were in an endless loop and began to reform the sith into what we see in the Prequels.
To stay hidden, to work from behind the scenes rather than attacking the republic and the Jedi from without like a bunch of super-powered bullies wanting your lunch money. And also to observe how your enemies operate so you can take advantage of their flaws. (That's why Palps' plan is so masterful IMO that's 1000 years of watching and planning for you.)
The Rule of two is to prevent counter-productive power struggles within the order, and also to keep themselves hidden from the Jedi until they are ready to destroy them.

Now as to Why doesn't Sidious break the rule of two. Well if you're interested in the EU he adheres to the rule but not completely.
If you're just interested in the movies the rule of two is sancrosanct ignore everything mentioned before this. Only what GL himself scribbles on napkins or post-it notes are divine inspiration everything else is just the cash-cow.

 

"That's why Palps' plan is so masterful IMO that's 1000 years of watching and planning for you."

I'd just like to say that the Sith are so beautiful because of that! They've always been so patient. Because of their drives for revenge against the Jedi, they don't want to screw it up. Does anyone else see the beauty in that? I guess you can call it poetic justice. Although the Sith are ultimately driven by hatred and anger, they need other qualities if they're ever going to exact revenge.

 

Scott, you are a true fan that does their research but what about the regular movie-goers who have no intention of readingmillions of SW books to find the answer to something that Luca$ could have .


"The reason for the "Rule Of Two" isn't directly explained in the film. This is because it is no more important to the story than (for example) the Jedi "rule" of not using the Force for attack. So long as you know that it's something in place, then you know what you need to know. And there's enough information in the films for the viewer to figure it out for themselves.

If you come away from the film wanting to know more, but lacking the imagination to figure it out for yourself, then go and $pend $ome money one of the many "£uca$" approved books out there..."


Why is it not explained in the movie? WHat makes the Darkside so powerful other than it's eviler(sp).These thing need to be explain ON SCREEN for casual as well as for new fans to understand.

 

I like the rule of two because it adds to ESB and ROTJ. There is (either intentionally or not) an interesting subplot to go back and watch. Vader is trying to take his own apprentice and take over "You can destroy the Emperor..." The Emperor is trying to take a new apprentice to replace an aging Vader "take your father's place at my side!" Vader and the Emperor are playing a game against each other. They both need him to turn to the darkside, so they work together on that.

Interesting side note: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design!" Boy, that sure takes on a whole new meaning, doesn't it?

 

"Why is it not explained in the movie? WHat makes the Darkside so powerful other than it's eviler(sp).These thing need to be explain ON SCREEN for casual as well as for new fans to understand."
I can tell you why its not explained in the movies. It's intended to do exactly what it has done to you. It leaves you looking for answers. Where does one turn to find the answers? The expanded universe. I guess it's meant to captivate viewers and force them into reading and doing research for themselves. Oh... and its's "more evil".

 

>>>Scott, you are a true fan that does their research but what about the regular movie-goers who have no intention of readingmillions of SW books to find the answer to something that Luca$ could have

Funny you should say that, because I have no interest in reading any Star Wars books. I've read 2 Star Wars books in my life (Splinter of the Minds Eye when I was about 7- nearly 20 years ago, and Truce at Bakura about 5 or 6 years ago- only because I received it as a present.) Both of them left me feeling like Officer Barbrady in South Park after reading that Ayn Rand book...

So, my 'research' has only come from watching the films and discussing them here. Everything I know about the EU is purely what I have inadvertantly picked up from these forums. (In much the same way that a sweet dropped on a carpet picks up fluff...)

>>>Why is it not explained in the movie? WHat makes the Darkside so powerful other than it's eviler(sp).These thing need to be explain ON SCREEN for casual as well as for new fans to understand.

The reason it's not explained in the movie is because there's no reason to explain it in the movie. When Darth Vader and the Emperor talked about the power of the Dark Side in the OT, it made sense. Why doesn't it make sense any more?
Maybe Episode III will explain everything when Anakin joins the Sith- maybe not. Personally, I'm not bothered.

Look at the PT; for everyone who thinks it's cool that, say, Boba Fett was a clone of the original Stormtrooper, there's someone else who thinks it's an awful idea and the character's been ruined. (Not that he really had much of a character in the OT- more to do with the character they had imagined based on about 2 minutes of screentime and about 3 lines of dialogue...)

What isn't explained in the film is left for the viewer's imagination to join the dots and fill the gaps, meaning that they come up with something personal that means something to them.

Look at the Force. Very vaguely described, and yet major religions were (I'm told) falling over each other back in the late '70s to declare that the Force was based on their religion.

Or consider the fact that none of the films have actually explained what the "Dark Side of the Force" is- yet we all somehow "know" what it is without having it told us in the film, or going away and reading a book to find out what seperates the Dark Side from the rest of the Force.
There isn't even a point in the films that actually tells the audience that "the Dark Side is evil"- yet we all managed to figure out that it's bad.

My opinion on what makes the Dark Side more powerful than the Jedi philosophy (I don't think there's such a thing as "the light side") is that the Jedi philosophy is all about only using the Force in order to serve the Force, while the Dark Side is about using the power of the Force for whatever reason the individual in question wants to use it. So while it's more powerful in the small scale (the "here and now"), the Jedi philosophy involves working with the Force, which is more powerful, yet cannot act directly. But that's entirely down to what I think the Dark Side of the Force is- not everybody sees it the same way.

However, I don't expect Episode III to explain that to the audience who hasn't already spent a chunk of their life watching these films, and to be honest, I wouldn't want it to. That's what I've figured out for myself and I like it, it meeans something to me, and I would imagine that whatever anyone else figures out for themselves would have much more relevance to them personally than any explanation that I could come out with.
To me, that's a big part of the beauty of the Star Wars films- that so much of what goes on is left to the imagination of the audience; which I think is why
a) Star Wars toys were so popular- because these were the bits that kids could make up for themselves, and
b) why it is that when something like the Clone Wars (for example) gets explained to us, more often than not it's not as cool as we had imagined i

 

QUEEN LEIA

When you grow up, you'll realize a lot of things aren't explained in the context of the movies.

For instance, no one ever knew where Obi-Wan went when Darth Vader sliced him. That still hasn't been explained, although we might get a little hint before Episode III is done.


Lucas is writing the prequels for people who enjoyed his first 3 movies. He has no interest in dumbing it down for the average movie-goer.


The rule of 2 is built on the relationship we saw in the CT. It's canon. Did you see anymore Sith flying around in the first 3 movies?


It doesn't need to be explained because it's so simple. All you need is a throwaway line at the end of TPM and all of it should make sense by what you see on the screen.


Plus, you have to remember that one of the major themes in Star Wars is duality. It works to the advantage of the Sith and many others who chose to hide their true intentions.


You're right, it is easy to use logic to destroy an argument. I feel better already.

 

When you grow up, you'll realize a lot of things aren't explained in the context of the movies
While there is no need for name calling, I agree that GL doesn't need to spell out every little detail in the script. If you want the "pop-up video" version of SW...perhaps, you're going to have to wait for the DVD

He could have cut out the pod race scene if he needed room to explain this.
Except that the pod race scene contributed to the larger task of telling the story of Anakin Skywalker's rise to become a jedi...leading to his eventual fall from grace as Darth Vader...leading to his redemption in ROTJ. Sacrificing that or the sake of going into detail on the nature of the Sith's struggle with thirst for power would take away from the main storyline of SW. Don't confuse you're apparent dislike of the Podrace (and most of the PT) for it not being a vital contributing factor of the saga.

 

The rule of 2 is the traditional way of the Sith. Sidious is OLD SCHOOL SITH

 

the rule of 2 is simple, there are 10,000 jedi in the galaxy, now 2 sith can hide very well, but if there were 100 sith or so, the jedi would discover them pretty quickly, then the jedi would destroy the sith order....its all so ery simple really........and i happen to think that sith are not more powerful than jedi, but thats just me

 

Also, you notice that even in the Jedi order itself, a Master only takes one padawan at a time. Why? Because the experiences of the Master can be passed, one-on-one, to the Padawan learner. Against the Code, it is, for a Master to have more than one padawan. A Jedi can become great because of his training, if he is given personal attention, and the benefits of his Master are, for the time being, at least, passed on to him and him alone.

The Sith know this they see how it works. A thousand years ago, the Sith were wiped out, and, according at least to legends in the novelizations, Darth Bane began to rebuild the order. Since he was the only Sith in existence, he had a choice: Train many apprentices and once, risk infighting, and sacrifice personal attention to attend to them all, and, in all likelihood, never see an apprentice that would never be able to succeed him, or instead pour all his hate, malice, and Force-ability into a single vessel, groomed from day one to be a willing follower of his Master and the Dark Side until finally he must take Bane's place. Bane chose the logical option. The Dark Siders basically reached their peak when they were few in number, and they kept their strength alive by preserving their small number.

Now, imagine if Palpy had taken Dooku, Anakin, and a certain young Zabrak under his wing at the same time. Vader would have been a loose cannon, doing his own thing. He thrived with Palpatine because Sidious taught him to defy the order to be great. Tyranus would felt shorted - he was a great Jedi, after all - and would probably have made his own play for power in the Sith Order, though the other two would have no respect for him whatsoever. Maul, on the other hand, would never have gotten past basic training. He's obviously a skilled warrior, capable of handling a double-bladed saber, and a sight to behold. Imagine, however, that his training time is cut down to a third of its potential, that his Master does not have a special Mentor-Apprentice relationship with him. He'd just be a freaky-looking guy who's mad at the world.

Yeah, I'd say Sidious probably did a good job following the rule.