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PT Why does the Trade Federation Invades Naboo?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Master star 3

    Sep 4, 2012
    It's obvious. The Chancellor is not allowed to send Jedi to "settle" anything without permission of the Senate. That's perfectly reasonable, because otherwise the Jedi would become something like the SS for Hitler. An organisation that "settles" conflicts purely based on instructions by one single man (the Chancellor). That's not democracy and that would clear the way for massive abuse because the outcome of a conflict would solely depend on the decision of one man (think about corruption etc.)
    Valorum's move with the Jedi was morally well intended, but it was obiously not correct in a judicial and democratic sense.

    Valorum can't overrule the Senate. The Senate decided to send a commision to Naboo.
    Using the Jedi as witnesses would be the end of his career and bring the Jedi into trouble as well.

    Naboo was attacked. The TF was part of the Republic as well. So it's more like a part of the Republic attacked another part.

    Well, I understood why the characters do what they do without reading any book. So either I'm a genius or it isn't that difficult at all ;)
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    No that is not obvious as nothing of the sort is ever said in the film. All we do know is that Valorum sent the jedi without asking the senate first. We don't know if this is illegal, a violation of procedure or a minor matter. The latter seems to the most likely because no one makes any big deal about what Valorum did or that he broke the law in any way.
    Palpatine is able to tell the jedi to do things without asking the senate and yes even before his extra powers. Also comparing the jedi to the SS is a rather big stretch.
    Second, if the senate has to ok the sending of the jedi or anyone else then the TF would know about it as they have a man in the senate. If no such ok was given then the TF could simply turn away any "ambassadors" of the republic as they were there in violation if the law. But they don't, they were not suprised that there were ambassadors there, that they were Jedi however was. And note that none of the TF guys said anything about the chancellor overstepping his bounds.

    Having the jedi appear as witnesses doesn't overrule the senate as he could have them called right at the start or be with Padme. Second the senate did not decide to send a comission, the blue guy said something to Valorum and he offered Padme the choice of a commision to be sent. She refused. The senate itself never made any deciscion in this matter. Or rather they made one, remove their leader when they have just been attacked.
    Third, about his career being ended by calling the jedi, again nothing of the sort is ever said. People just make that up to explain away his inaction. And his inaction it curiuos as the same guy had the balls to send two jedi to settle a dispute the senate could not resolve.
    Lastly, you argument defeats itself. If Valorums career would be ended by calling the jedi as witnesses because he sent them to Naboo. He already made the choice to send them to Naboo. Had they done their job and forced a settlement then the fact that the jedi were involved would become known. And according to you, end Valorums career. Which he apparently doesn't think too much about given he sent the jedi anyway, so calling them would make no difference. And given the extreme seriuosness of the situation, calling them makes all the sense. And if the Jedi are in trouble by going to Naboo, being witnesses doesn't change that.

    So galatic civil war then. Bottomline, war has begun. In AotC the senate gave Palpatine extra powers just on the word that the seps would attack. Here the TF have ACTUALLY attacked and the senate does nothing. Except make themselves leaderless.


    Really? So based on just the films, nothing else. Who ordered the clone army? Why didn't Padme call the jedi as witnesses? Why did the TF remove all but one of their ships, esp since they knew Padme would come back there? What do the Sith want revenge for?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  3. Alessandro Sanfilippo

    Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 16, 2013
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    No I am simply pointing out that the film isn't as clear and detailed as you make it sound.
    I am just giving alternatives to what Palpatine might be planing since we don't know what his original plan was. We know that he used Padme to remove Valorum. However we also know that this wasn't his original plan. What that plan was is never said, nor why the TF invaded Naboo. Which is what this thread is about.
    Same thing in AotC. Was the original plan that Jango would hire Zam, who would fail twice to kill Padme, and Jango would kill her with a Kamino dart and Obi-Wan would be able to trace it and go to Kamino and then Jango would lead him to Geonosis and this the senate would hear about the sep threat? Given how unlikely all these events are I very much doubt it.

    Really? So how can the senate decide on taxes? The UN doesn't tax the world.
    Also, why is there such a big deal in AotC about some systems wanting to leave the republic?
    If they are there own goverments and the republic is like the UN, why should anyone be stopped from leaving? And how can people argue that they should raise an army to keep those systems in the republic?

    Not so weak and useless as he sent two jedi to settle the Naboo blockade. Given how highly illegal it was according to some here, that took massive balls.
    And again, Valorums character is inconsistent. First he strong and assertive and then he is weak and timid and with not much of an explanation as to why. Had the character been established better then it might have worked. As it is, it is plot convinience. The plot needs this to happen and so it does.

    So that means she can't think for herself? She also went back to Naboo over Palpatines objections so here she can do what she wants but when the plot needs her to do what Palpatine says, then she does so.

    "Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

    And how would the jedi know that the TF had not attacked any other worlds? The TF blacked out communication and stopped people from leaving. If they had done this on ten other worlds and there no one got out. Then the jedi would not know if the TF had done any other attacks.
    Naboo was blocked out and apparently no one in the senate or jedi council paid that much mind.

    The film says the TF controlled those worlds and apparently that control was to such an extent that the Jedi did not dare to go there. Instead a planet run by criminals was deemed safer.

    Since the TF was apparently the source of some of the corruption in the republic, why is siding with them any better? And money and power is what corruption is all about. So they would be happy with having a corrupt senate as then they can do as they please and the senate can't do anything.
    Which is what TPM showed really. The TF could blockade and even invade a whole planet and the senate did not lift a finger to stop them.

    What? At the start of AotC some systems want to leave the republic but they haven't yet done so. But the seps were already building their own army to attack the republic and make it do what ever they wanted. The seps were the agressors here.
    Staying in the republic isn't taking away their power as it would be no different from how they have it now. Nothing indicates that the TF or the other seps have it worse than during TPM.
    If the movie had showed the senate and the republic as significantly less corrupt than before then them wanting to leave makes more sense as they now have lost power. But nothing indicates this, the senate and the courts seem as corrupt as ever.

    If the senate tries to use force to prevent them from leaving then that might qualify. But the republic hasn't done that. There is talk about the senate creating an army but there is also a strong opposition to that, most notably Padme.


    But again, Padme coming to Coruscant fits his plan like a glove IF that plan always was to let the invasion be known and use that against Valorum. So he is acting against himself here. Unless his original plan wasn't to let the invasion become known in which case his actions makes more sense.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  5. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Master star 3

    Sep 4, 2012
    If it wasn't a violation and illegal, there wouldn't be a point for the chancellor to do it!
    That's the point of it. If something is not allowed, you either don't do it or do it secretly. That's just logical reasoning.

    Some simple facts have to be assumed, because no film has the time to name every single detail.
    We have so assume Han Solo had significant reasons why he didn't pay off Jabba the Hutt. It's necessary. Otherwise his actions would seem illogical.

    That's because nobody is in a position to do that.
    The senate doesn't know about it. The TF would hit heir own mark because the Jedi could make their crimes public, then.

    Protecting a senator that was target of a assination attempt it not comparable.

    I don't think that's a stretsch in any way. It just shows how it could end if a single man was allowed to send members of a powerful group in order to "settle a conflict" without a legislative mandate. The SS "settled" several conflicts during its existence.

    And you make up that Valorum coud just call the Jedi without problems. That's not said in the film. What's said and seen in the film:
    1.) the chancellor sent the Jedi secretly
    2.) the chancellor did not call them as witnesses
    These information make it obvious to me that there was a significant reason why the chancellor sent them secretly and did not call them as witnesses.
    Your claim, however, is that there was no real reason why the chancellor sent them secretly (why do it write it in the opening scroll, then?) and because there was no reason (that's your assumption which imo doesn't make sense) the chancellor should have called them as witnesses.

    No. Of course a deal between the Jedi and the TF would have been something like: "Ok guys, you immediately dissolve the blockade and leave the planet. In exchance, we'll just forget about what happened here and you won't be punished. That's the deal."

    That's because the TF was still part of the Republic by the time of TPM and their crimes have not been proven, yet.

    Not you're throwing in a lot of different topics that largely extend your original statement.

    Who ordered the clone army? That's irrelevant in order to understand the plot and the characters actions. Relevant is that the Sith are in control of the army by the time of AOTC and ROTS and that is made clear. Who ordered the clone army is just as irrelevant as to know how the rebels stole secret plans about the death star.
    Why didn't Padme call the jedi as witnesses? That's a legitimite question. Given that the Jedi were her only real allies at this point, it is reasonable to assume that she didn't want to endanger their continuing loyality and help (how that would endanger their loyality: see points above)
    Why did the TF remove all but one of their ships, esp since they knew Padme would come back there? Only one ship appeared on the screens of the Queen's ship, that doesn't mean all of the other ships were removed. However, the planet was under control, so there was no reason to block space.
    They knew Padmé would come back and they were ordered to wipe them all out. The Queen's ship breached through blockade before. They were planning to kill them all on the planet (since they knew Padmé would try to reconquer the palace).
    What do the Sith want revenge for? Irrelevant. They want to control the republic and destroy the Jedi. Palpatine wants to become dictator. That's important. "at last we will have revenge" is just about to tell you that there is histroy between the Jedi and the Sith and the Sith don't just dislike the Jedi because they wear brown cloaks.

    Samuel Vimes
    Nothing personal, but won't respond further. This has nothing to do with you as a person, I'm just tired of all these discussions after so many years. That's why I hardly respond to such posts in the first place these days. I did it this time, so I did my duty and answered twice. Now it's over, though ;-)
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    We know why Naboo was invaded, it's his homeworld. What better way to make yourself gain public support, than having your home targeted. We know what his plan was, because he needed to show Valorum as weak and himself as strong. Signing the treaty would help with that.

    Success or failure wasn't important. What was important was that Zam would do this and then be eliminated, which would bring the Jedi to Kamino and to Geonosis. This is clear because the Archives were erased and the analysis droid couldn't locate the origin of the dart. When Sidious says everything went as planned, it tells us that the whole thing was a set up.

    I didn't say exactly like it. The individual systems have their own rules and regulations. The Senate lets them have their leash go as far as possible. They step in when it comes to larger matters. If the Trade Federation wants to blockade a world, they can do that. If they want to invade, that's a different matter.

    The leaving of the systems is an issue, because it starts to affect the economy and those that left, start to side with an organization that is threatening war. The Military Creation Act was to try and keep law and order, since the Jedi were spread too thin. Those that opposed it did so because they were either pacifists, or feared that the opposition would spring into action to oppose such an action. Padme and Bail were against the army, because they didn't want the Republic to become more of a military government, dictating actions. They wanted a return to common sense discussion and debate.

    He does it secretly because he believes it to be a simple blockade that can be settled discreetly, without the Senate's knowledge. When he learns that it is a much graver situation, he tries to do what is right, but is afraid to lose his political power. This time, it is out in public and he cannot bring himself to bypass the committee because of his fear.

    She follows his lead because she's inexperienced when it comes to the Senate. She is trusting him to make the right choices for her people, because she has no reason to believe otherwise. That's why when she leaves for Naboo, Padme tells Palpatine that his expertise in the Senate is where he is best suited. She is more suited to settle the matter back home on her own. She even tells Anakin ten years later that she wasn't that experienced when this all went down and she wasn't sure if some of the choices she made were the right ones.

    The transmissions weren't blocked until Sidious told Nute to begin the invasion. Ergo, up until then, communications between Naboo and Coruscant were ongoing. That's why Padme and her cabinet knew that the Chancellor were sending ambassadors and Palpatine is talking to her, when the transmission is cut off. If any other world was in blockade, similar transmissions about it would have already occurred.

    You misunderstood. The Jedi wouldn't take Padme to a world that the Federation has jurisdiction over, in order to hide and make repairs. Nute would send the word out to search for the Queen's ship. That's why they went into the Outer Rim and to Tatooine, where the Hutts have domain. As Qui-gon said, the Hutts won't be looking for them, which gives them an advantage. That's why Maul was sent out in search of her.

    Not everyone knows that the Federation and the other Confederacy leadership are the root cause of the corruption. Dooku has spent the last year blaming the problems on Palpatine and the previous administration and not the Confederacy leadership. The picture that has been painted makes it look like the Senate itself is to blame and that the Federation was only responding because they were taking the blame unjustly.

    But it is the Republic that attacks the Separatists, by sending 212 Jedi and about a million clones to Geonosis. The Republic was the aggressor here, not the Separatists.

    Meanwhile, a Jedi Knight created a clone army ten years earlier. Said army is used by the Jedi, under the authority of the Senate, to prevent the Separatists from leaving the Republic.

    "Turn a negative into a positive." It fits because Palpatine made it fit. He had to take something into account that he hadn't in the first place. Namely Anakin Skywalker. Maul would have succeeded had Anakin not been found by Qui-gon like he had been. Qui-gon wouldn't have turned around in time to see Maul bearing down on him, had Anakin not complained about being tired. Maul wouldn't have died on Naboo. But Palpatine used this to his advantage and began integrating himself into Anakin's life, while using Dooku as an alternative. Padme wasn't meant to come there, but Palpatine came up with an alternative plan and it worked. Same again when Anakin didn't turn after killing Dooku and instead went back for Obi-wan, Palpatine had to come up with another plan and when he sensed the boy's anguish over Padme, he used it to his advantage.

    The Sith. That's obvious when Palpatine orders the Jedi to be eliminated and that the Council said that they never gave authority to Sifo-Dyas.

    Planet is under control and the one ship controlled the Droid Army.

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."

    MACE WINDU: "I do not believe that the Sith would have returned without our knowing."

    MACE WINDU: "The oppression of the Sith will never return."

    PALPATINE: "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace."

    The Jedi took control from the Sith. You'd be a little bit ticked off at that.
  7. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army. Dooku found out about it, and killed Sifo. Dooku then provided the money necessary to fund the army, as well as recruiting Jango to be the clone template.

    There's nothing wrong with needing to read the books in order to understand this. Since the books are all a part of Star Wars too, they are all valid sources of information.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    Dooku might have provided some of the later sums, maybe- but Darth Plagueis provided the initial donation before his death, and Palpatine secretly channeled huge sums of money from the Republic budget.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 8, 2002
    The blockade was a protest against the taxation of trade routes in the outlying territories.

    The real reason for the invasion is made pretty clear in the film: The Sith made them do it. I know a lot of people don't like that answer, but that pretty much sums up the reason why they did it. All the other stuff regarding Palpatine's election as Supreme Chancellor wasn't known to them, and therefore played no part in their desired intentions. The TF were against the idea of invasion at first, but their greed got the best of them. Why Naboo of all places isn't made clear, since I'm sure there are a ton of undiscovered worlds out there for the taking.

    Lucas not explaining what makes the Queen's homeworld so special was a mistake, in my opinion. This little detail, however, was mentioned in the EU. I think they should have mentioned the rare and enormous amount of natural plasma resources that the planet was known to have. One line of dialogue from the TF, or one of the Queen's advisors that were just sitting around, would have explained so much of why the greedy bastards would take such a risk. But I guess Lucas was afraid that the reasons would be too similar in storyline to the Dune series and decided against the idea of establishing this little fact.

    Hopefully, one day they'll film the Darth Plagueis novel, which would cover all this.:confused:
  10. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    They invaded Naboo at Sidious' request, yes. However, Sidious' reasoning to convince them to do so was as an act of revenge against Palpatine, who was the one responsible for championing the taxation bill to Valorum in the first place.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 8, 2002
    Yeah, but the film doesn't tell you that information. In fact, it sort of implies that the taxes were implemented without Naboo's consent.
  12. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    Phantom Menace(s) indeed.:cool:
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    I know that. But not everyone is into the EU and Lucas didn't address it in ROTS, because he had a lot on his plate and it wasn't meant to be that big a deal. Originally Obi-wan is told that it was a man named Sido-Dyas, which was the Kamino way of saying Sidious. Obi-wan then says that no such Jedi exists with that name and double checks with Yoda and Mace, who both concur. Lucas felt that it gave away too much and thus he changed it in 01.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Faulty reasoning, simply because you do something in secret doesn't make this something illegal or a violation. It only means some other people did not know about it. Superman has a secret identity, that doesn't make that illegal. Writing an article under a pseudonym keeps your name secret but that isn't illegal either.
    The opening crawl to TPM says that the senate is blocked and unable to resolve this matter.
    So Valorum sends the jedi in an attempt to break this stalemate.

    Well plenty of people have brought up Han's actions as being a plot hole or lacking in logical sense.

    Circular reasoning, you assume that everything the characters say and do must have a perfectly logical reason. So everything the character does has a sensible reason, if it did not they wouldn't do it and since they do they must have a sensible reason. QED.

    We don't know why Valorum sent them in secret since the film never says. The most probable reason I mentioned above. Likewise their sending is never said to be illegal or very damaging to him and given that their involvement would eventually become known, that is highly unlikely. Why he or Padme doesn't call them is also never addressed.
    Either they both just forgot or Lucas needed the senate not to act and them not acting in light of jedi evidence would look implausible.
    Valorum KNOWS what has happened on Naboo and would understand the gravity of the situation.
    Since the same Valorum showed initiative and drive by sending two Jedi to settle a dispute it makes no sense for him NOT to call those same Jedi as witnesses to this act of war. If Valorum had a legit reason for not calling the jedi it should have been addressed. But it wasn't, hence why I find this plot point rather poor. And your reason doesn't work, Valorum has already made use of two jedi and that use would become known so calling the jedi or not does not matter.
    What? First the blockade is KNOWN, that was the whole point of the blockade. Neither side can pretend the blockade never happened and if the blockade goes away people will notice and wonder what happened.
    Second, what you describe here have the Jedi act like thugs which is totally against their character.
    They were sent to settle the dispute and if they had done so, the blockade would be removed but their involvement would become known.
    The senate would have been inforedm that the blockade has been reomved, don't you think people would ask questions? Nute would have told his people "The jedi made me sign this treaty." and people would know the jedi were involved. Or are you suggesting that the jedi kill Nute Gunray and all the other TF people do keep this quiet?
    The seps were still a part of the republic in AotC as well, they hadn't yet broken away.
    In AotC one jedi reported via radio that the seps were PLANING to attack the republic.
    In TPM, two jedi reported in person that the TF HAD attacked the republic.
    Yet in TPM the senate did nothing.

    Samuel Vimes
    Nothing personal, but won't respond further. This has nothing to do with you as a person, I'm just tired of all these discussions after so many years. That's why I hardly respond to such posts in the first place these days. I did it this time, so I did my duty and answered twice. Now it's over, though ;-)[/quote]

    Fair enough.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    This makes no sense, the blockade was known, that was the whole point of the blockade.
    If it suddenly were to go away, people would notice and ask questions. And the involvement of the jedi would become known and that Valorum sent them. So, as I said to Samnz, if the sending of the jedi could cost Valorum his power then he has already shown is he is ready and willing to pay that price. Thus his actions now runs counter to his already established character.
    Valorum was willing to risk his career in order to stop a tax dispute, that this same person won't risk his career in order to act against a war is totally illogical.
    If something happened to him between the sending of the jedi and Padme arriving on Coruscant that explains this then it should have been in the movie. As it is now, the character is just inconsistent.
    And Padme looks like an idiot for not even suggesting calling the Jedi, esp when Valorum mentioned a commite. Then she could have said "No need, call the two jedi that the TF tried to murder and helped me escape."

    You miss my point, it seems that no one or Coruscant had noticed that Naboo was cut off from any communications. Thus if some other planets had been attacked in a similar way, no one on Coruscant would know about it. So my point is that the Jedi don't know whether or not the TF has attacked any other worlds.

    This is exactly what I said, the TF controlls many worlds and that control is great enough that the jedi can't risk going there.
    You said earlier "TPM established that there were planets that were friendly to the Federation and that they had a presence." I responded with "TPM established that the TF CONTROLLED many other planets. Many enough that from Naboo, Tatooine was apparently the only planet they could reach that the TF didn't control. I would imagine this would be quite a number."
    To which you said "And control is broad word."

    So what exactly are you arguing against? I said that the TF controlls many worlds and the jedi dare not go there. They instead opt to go to a planet run by criminals.
    Very nice info, however none of this is in the film. What Dook has been doing or what the seps want or why is never really explained. We are just told that some systems want to leave the republic for some reason. Again it seems that EU keeps getting brought up to explain the movie.

    The seps were planing to attack the republic, a republic they thought to be without any defences apart from the jedi. So the seps were not responding to a threat, they were planing for an attack on their own but then the republic go the drop on them.


    But "turn a negative into a positive" apply to the situation Palpatine is faced with after the queen has fled Naboo. If he plans to have the invasion become known then Padme coming to Coruscant fits that plan. So he is best served by doing nothing.
    Why are you talking about Anakin and Maul and all that?
    If, as you say, Palpatine goal was always that the invasion of Naboo would become known and force Valorum out, then Padme escaping fits with that plan, in fact he just got served a gift. Thus he should not have sent out Maul as it is in his interest that Padme get to Coruscant.
    But instead he does the exact opposite of that, and works against what you say his plan is.

    However if his original plan was something else and only after Padme got to Coruscant did he alter his plans to make use of her. Then his actions makes better sense.
    I have often acknowledged one of Palpatine's better qualities is his ability to think on his feet and alter his plans to fit current events.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  16. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    Palpatine's Plan A was to have Padme sign the treaty so that he could then say "Hey, look what happened to Padme! She was forced to sign a treaty against her will! Isn't Valorum a terrible Chancellor for allowing that to happen?" The treaty itself was irrelevant to Palpatine's plans; it was just a tool to help him destabilize Valorum's rule.

    There's nothing wrong with using the EU to explain what is unclear in the films. It's all Star Wars, and all of the information in the EU is perfectly valid.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  17. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    No need for the EU to do anything when The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones & Revenge of the Sith made things crystal clear:

    The only explanation we need for that unknown reason is: Darth Sidious.

    The TF didn't do anything until he told them to. Dooku played the CIS, then left for a meeting with his Master to provide a report in person. And lastly, the Droid Moron moved the CIS pawns to Mustafar just as Sidious instructed... so the films provide a plenty of reason.;)

    But I'm glad the EU gave us more to chew on.
    Visivious Drakarn likes this.
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    The crawl says secretly, which means that Valorum has not informed the Senate. A secret means that you do not tell anyone what you know. Then there's this.

    PALPATINE: "… the Republic is not what it once was. There is no interest in the common good. I must be frank, Your Majesty, there is little chance the Senate will act on the invasion."

    AMIDALA: "Chancellor Valorum seems to think there is hope."

    PALPATINE: "The Chancellor has little real power… he is mired down by baseless accusations of corruption. The bureaucrats are in charge now."

    This is why.

    PALPATINE: "Enter the bureaucrats, the true rulers of the Republic, and on the payroll of the Trade Federation, I might add. This is where Chancellor Valorum’s strength will disappear."

    This is why. Valorum couldn't bring himself to go against procedure in public.

    It would look like the Naboo and the Federation had resolved the matter without intervention from the Senate or the Jedi Order. That's what Valorum had hoped for. That was before it was known that there was an invasion and not just a simple blockade.

    But Palpatine manipulated her into not doing so.

    PALPATINE: "Our best choice would be to push for the election of a stronger Supreme Chancellor. One who will take control of the bureaucrats, enforces the laws, and give us justice. You could call for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum."

    AMIDALA: "He has been our strongest supporter. Is there any other way?"

    PALPATINE: "Our only other choice would to be to submit a plea to the courts…"

    AMIDALA: "Our people are dying, Senator… more and more each day. We must do something quickly to stop the Federation."

    PALPATINE "To be realistic, Your Highness, I’d say we’re going to have to accept Federation control for the time being."

    AMIDALA: "There is something I cannot do."

    AMIDALA: "With the Senate in transition, there is nothing more I can do here… Senator, this is your arena. I feel I must return to mine."

    She listened to someone that she trusted to guide her into doing what was right. As Palpatine said, she was young and easy to manipulate.

    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Zam wasn't meant to lead anyone to Kamino. That would mean the bombing of the landing pad was not meant to succeed, which doesn't make sense. And there was no way to assume that a Jedi would have a personal contact who would be able to identify a saberdart. After all, the temple droids couldn't identify its origin; were it not for Kenobi's connection with Dex, the trail would have gone cold there. As far as leading anyone to Geonosis is concerned, if this was so important you'd think Jango would have reacted differently; he was visibly disturbed after Obi-Wan's questioning and it did not appear that he had been planning to leave at that point. The Kaminoans would have been bound to try to contact the Republic eventually once the army was ready. It's important to avoid interpreting Sidious' dialogue to mean that literally everything happening in the film was planned. It is just that it conforms to an overall plan which is flexible enough to adapt to different circumstances.

    In Qui-Gon we already have a kind of implied precedent for Jedi sometimes acting independently or without the knowledge or permission of the Council. Sifo-Dyas may fit into a similar mold. Even if the idea was not really his in the first place, he could have been manipulated into placing the order and later killed off.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Actually, it was. The dart was used to eliminate Zam. As to identifying the dart, Dooku and Palpatine aren't stupid. They know that the Jedi would turn to other resources and not simply give up, because the analysis droids couldn't turn up something. Police and FBI don't just quite when something doesn't pan out. They exhaust all avenues. You really think Palpatine was going to leave it all to chance that the Jedi would find the army, when Taun We says what she says...

    TAUN WE: "Master Jedi, so good to see you. The Prime Minister expects you."

    OBI-WAN: "I'm expected?"

    TAUN WE: "Of course! He is anxious to meet you. After all these years, we were beginning to think you weren't coming. Now please, this way!"

    Jango is a hired gun. He's not in on the plan.

    According to Taun We, that was not the case.

    Per the EU, we know that he was manipulated and set up. Going by the films, the impression you're left with is that Sidious did it himself. And given that it was originally written that way, it is not difficult to draw the conclusion.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    It wasn't. If the landing pad attack had succeeded, there would have been no dart.

    But they don't know for a fact that any Jedi has the specific resource needed. If it had not been for the chance occurrence of Obi-Wan's connection with Dex, there could have been nowhere at all to turn. Did someone say something about "leaving it all to chance"?

    Then there's no way for the "planners" to assume he will end up having to use a particular type of attack which will lead back to Kamino.

    Really? Taun We stated that the Kaminoans would never have contacted the Republic, no matter how much time had passed? I don't think so.

    "But surely the Kaminoans would have contacted us, Master."

    "Eventually. But grown greater in numbers the Separatist army would have."
    - Labyrinth of Evil

    How it was originally written is largely irrelevant in the sense that by the time of the released film Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi and no longer a reference to Sidious. And audiences saw that canon version of events before they learned of the obsolete "Sido-Dyas" stage of the script. Going by only the released film, Sifo-Dyas being manipulated and killed off after the fact is an equally viable conclusion to draw.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012

    I'll try to be more brief.
    The argument was that Valorum broke the law by sending the jedi, my response is that doing something in secret =/= illegal.
    As for the rest, valorum sent the Jedi to settle the dispute, that does not sound like someone without power, plus Palpatine could be lying as he is trying to poison Padme's mind against Valorum.

    Since the involvement of the jedi would become known, he has shown that he can do this so this reasoning doesn't work.
    Also, you haven't shown that calling the jedi as witnesses would be any violation of procedure and Valorum could have made this choice before the start of the session.

    You don't know this. The blockade was a very public thing, the whole senate was involved with it and unable to resolve it.
    If it were to go away people would notice and ask questions. Also Nute would inform the rest of the TF that the jedi made him sign some treaty and then the involvement of the jedi would become known.
    Ex, take the stalemate in the US congress about the budget. If that was resolved, say by the President submitting to the demands and scrapping Obamacare. Don't you think this would become known? Of course it would. Same here, there is no way the involvement of the jedi would have remained a secret. Ergo, if this was a violation of procedure, then Valorum was perfectly willing and able to do this, despite the cost. So here, with far higher stakes, that he doesn't call the jedi either before the session even starts or during it.
    And if the accusations were baseless, why did they affect him to this degree? Also, Palapatine names the blue guy and the others as being on the pay roll of the TF and yet he uses them ten years later and no one thinks this is odd?

    This would make more sense of Padme had actually suggested calling the jedi and Palpatine managed to dissuade her. As it is, she seems to just forget about them.

    If those are the same ten thousand systems Dooku mentioned, then they were willing to join before the republic had done anything.
    And the seps we see with Dooku all seemed to be totally onboard with attacking a defenceless republic and do what ever they wanted to it.
    So their motivation could simply be to loot and plunder the republic and enslave it's citizens and those ten thousand systems could be thinking the same. In fact, given thow cowardly the TF is and the rest of the seps were expecting an easy victory over the republic, their loss could have the effect that systems could instead stay with the republic as it was nowehere near as weak as they had thought.

    But he didn't. If Palpatine was planing for the invasion to become known through the treaty, then Padme escaping would lead to the invasion becoming known and now he need not bother with the treaty. So he should have done nothing. But instead he sent Maul and went with the original plan anyway, despite not needing to.

    You still miss my point, Naboo went silent and noone on Coruscant either didn't notice or didn't care. Thus if other worlds went silent in the same way, those on Coruscant would not notice or care. So unless the Jedi have been in contact with every system in the republic during the last two days, they don't know for sure that there haven't been any other attacks. And even so, the TF has shown itself to violate all laws by doing this, who says they will not do so again? Naboo they first had a blockad and then invasion. But if the gloves are off, why wouldn't they simply arrive and attack right away? Qui-Gon was suprised with what the Tf were doing and noteds that this was unexpected. So other unexpected things could happen.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Zam still has to be killed. First rule of assassination, kill the assassin.

    Watto did, but Qui-gon used the Force to move the Chance Cube so that it would land on Anakin's color and not Shmi. Qui-gon also said that another solution would present itself. But again, that's different from the Sith manipulating events and people to do what they want. The Sith know that the Jedi that will investigate will not just simply quit, when the going gets tough. They would find someone who could identify it. No, they didn't know about Dex. But they knew that Obi-wan would find someone who had been to Kamino and would identify it for him.

    Dooku encouraged Jango to carry the toxic dart and use it to eliminate Zam, with the promise that it wouldn't be used to track him down.

    Right, but the Jedi don't know yet that they were being manipulated into finding the Clone Army. They're playing catch up and making incorrect assumptions.

    Equally viable is that Sifo-Dyas was killed and Darth Sidious or Count Dooku used his name to place the order. And given that Sidious knows about Order 66 and issues it, is your big clue that he did it.

    Except you can see that he is right because Valorum appears confident and full of swagger right up until Mas Amedda whispers in his ear and then he deflates, by which point you can hear that disapproves of the motion to table this until a committee has investigated. Palpatine wasn't lying. He was telling the truth. Not everything a Sith says is a lie.

    But he didn't which is because he cannot use them, due to the fact that he did not have the authority to send them out in the first place. The Jedi's involvement with a blockade wouldn't have been known. But it went beyond that and became a matter for the Senate. It could have been done as backdoor solution without the Senate being the wiser. But because Sidious had a much larger plan in mind, he torpedoed any chance Valorum had for using them. Not without endangering his career.

    This presumes that Nute would have talked about it. If, if, the Jedi had succeed, Valorum might have been able to gotten away with it. But because it came back to the Senate, it didn't. His power disappears because he caves into the motion to form a committee. It shows that he isn't as decisive as he appears. That's what Palpatine uses to take control of the Senate, by not being indecisive.

    The Senate believed the evidence Sidious planted for them and took action against him.

    The Senate put Mas Amedda in as Vice Chancellor and only the Senate could remove him. In reality, Mas Amedda was in Palpatine's pocket.

    She's aware that the Chancellor wasn't supposed to send them.

    That's why it was never going to happen. The Sith were going to force the Jedi to come to Geonosis and start the war, thus making the Jedi look bad as well as the Republic for having an army that invaded their world. That's why Obi-wan was allowed to send out his transmission.

    You're still missing the picture. Palpatine wants the treaty signed before she could get to Coruscant, but he is aware that they didn't make the jump to lightspeed to Coruscant. He sends Maul because he wants that treaty signed, but upon her getting away, Palpatine changes the plan. The same way he planned to turn Anakin through the fight with Dooku on the Invisible Hand, but it didn't work. So he had to come up with a new plan.

    But no other world has been blockaded. Only Naboo. And when the blackout occurred, Palpatine kept it quiet for as long as possible. He knew the minute the transmission cut out that the blackout had begun and thus kept a lid on it. Just as he pretended to be unaware that the Jedi had arrived, when he knew full well that they had. It's like in "Aliens", when Burke put the two Facehuggers in the sleeping quarters where Newt and Ripley were. Then shut off the camera as soon as they woke up and tried to signal Hicks for help. Then he later pretended that he had done no such thing and accused Ripley of being paranoid. The badguy knows the truth and will cover up for it.

    But they didn't happen. So it doesn't matter. If the Federation went after other worlds, they wouldn't be able to hide it.
    timmoishere likes this.
  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Changelings must be a dime a dozen, then; I'm surprised we haven't seen more of them. If the bombing of the landing pad had sufficed, there would have been no reason to kill Zam, unlike in the film where Zam ended up in Jedi custody. It becomes increasingly unreasonable to see the saberdart as any part of the Sith plan. Even if the Sith had some way of knowing that Jango wouldn't simply carry out the attack himself without using a subordinate, there would have been no way to be certain either that he would feel the need to eliminate his subordinate in the first place or that he would use a saberdart to do so.

    I think Jango's probably smarter than that. A blaster bolt is also pretty hard to trace back to a source. Why not just use that? And it's true that the saberdart wasn't identified by the Temple droids, so under "normal" circumstances the trail would have gone cold right there. Only because of the chance connection between Obi-Wan and Dex did the Jedi find out about Kamino.

    It doesn't matter if they don't quit, if there's not necessarily anything there for them to find. It's the same reason they don't know Palpatine is Sidious even though they've been looking for Sidious.

    There would be no way to know that for certain. It would be a giant leap of faith.

    There is nothing that proves incorrect the assumption that the Kaminoans would have eventually contacted them at some point. In fact, that only makes sense. What does not make sense is to assume that the Kaminoans would never have contacted the Republic regarding the situation, no matter how much time had passed. Such contact could easily be the way in which the Jedi were intended to learn about the army. If they are making an incorrect assumption in this passage it may simply be the concept that it was beneficial to them to have found the army at the time they did. We as the viewers know this is ultimately not borne out.

    That is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not Sifo-Dyas was alive when the initial order was placed, as in either case Sidious ends up both knowing about Order 66 and issuing it. On the other hand, there is no evidence that the Kaminoans even knew about Order 66, and it seems safe to say that it would not have been part of Sifo's order.
  25. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    It pretty funny finding darth-sinister making this same argument in another thread. Truth be told, while the Sith did indeed manipulate the events of the PT, what we're trying to iron home is that fact that they are not micro-manipulating every little character action like you seem to think they are. In order for this to occur you are assuming two things:

    A. The Sith are omnipotent.
    B. Everyone else is a moron.

    While a lot of stupid decisions are made on the actions of other characters (Jar Jar, the Jedi Council) Implying that Dook/Sidious were able to foresee and plan every single action performed by intelligent and strong-willed characters such as Jango Fett and Obi-Wan is ridiculous. No Jango Fett would not be so easily tricked into a frame-up. No the Sith have no reason to think that Obi-Wan would know a former slimeball with connections to Kamino, or would push onward looking for a planet that there is no record of in the most comprehensive galactic database in the galaxy.
    darth ladnar likes this.