PT Why does Vader continue to the dark side after Padme dies?

Why does Vader commit to the dark side after he realizes Amidala has died and Palpatine's promise to save her was not honored? Does he not sense he's been tricked? What reason does he have to obey Palpatine after he lied to him?

This is the most critical part of the saga and it never gets addressed. I want to like the Prequels, but it all seems for nought if this crucial motivation is never resolved.

 

Welome!

First he has no reason to suspect Palpy at that point.
Second, what choice does he have?
Third, he might still have seen it as form of freedom despite the suit at first.

Will expand tomorrow.

 

He's already committed to the dark side by that time, having turned on his fellow Jedi and slaughtered the younglings, and now with Padme dead there is no one else who could possibly convince him to change back. Furthermore, to admit he was wrong to switch to the dark side -- which of course he was, even from a purely selfish level, having failed to save Padme, which was his primary motivation -- would be to admit to himself that he killed all those Jedi and younglings for no reason, and that there was no justification for what he did. In a way, from his perspective, if the dark side is stronger than the light, it justifies those actions, not on a moral level of course but on a practical one. This is how people often justify evil deeds -- for example people will defend the practice of torture by saying it's necessary, or that serves a greater good, or that it's just the way the world works. Plus, he's just seen the dark side triumph totally over the light with Sidious defeating and wiping out the Jedi.

 

What would Vader go back to after Mustafar?

The Jedi are gone, The Republic has formed into a Galactic Empire, Padme and his child is presumed dead, Obi Wan "betrayed" him.

Vader made his bed/ mechanical suit and now he will lie in it. He might aswell live the life he's sacrificed everything/everyone for where he's #2 in the Galaxy instead of wallowing in his self pity. He wouldn't be strong enough to defeat the Emporer head on now that he's been injured, what else could he do?

 

I believe there are some lines that answers to your questions.

Why does Vader commit do the dark side after Padme's death?

Yoda: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

What reason does he have to obey Palpatine?

Anakin: "We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem… agree what’s in the best interest of all people… and then do it."
Padme: "That’s exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don’t always agree."
Anakin: "Well, then they should be made to."
Padme: "By whom? Who’s going to make them?"
Anakin: "I don’t know. Someone."
Padme: "You?"
Anakin: "Of course not me."
Padme: "But someone."
Anakin: "Someone wise."
Padme: "Sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me."
Anakin: "Well, if it works."

So, Anakin believes in dictatorship as a solution for the system, and he considers Palpatine as a wise leader.

 

Yep. Whilst the Padme motivation was brought to the forefront in ROTS as the key component of his fall, he did also genuinely believe in trying to bring about justice/order to the Galaxy. Consider what he thought the Jedi should be since childhood as we see in The Phantom Menace...

"I had a dream I was a Jedi. I had a dreamed I came back here and freed all the slaves. Have you come to free us. When Qui-Gon asserts that that is not the case he has a hard time believing that freeing them couldn't be his mission. Stating, "I think you have. Why else would you be here?" After which Qui-Gon has to explain why they're really on Tatooine.

Later on in Attack of the Clones he says, "Why else do you think we were assigned to her if not to find the killer? Protection is a job for local security not Jedi. It's overkill master, investigation is implied in our mandate." Like before he phrases what he wants to see the Jedi do as what he thinks should be self-evident logic. ("Why else...") He desires/believes in direct unhindered intervention from the powers that be as well as quick and decisive action. It's in the already quoted dialogue he has with Padme on Naboo, where he even concedes that a dictatorship under "someone wise" could be what works.

And then in Revenge of the Sith after Obi-Wan tells him about how there's a vote over giving Palpatine even more executive power Anakin's response is, "Well, than can only mean less deliberation and more action. Is that bad?" He also has a genuinely enthusiastic response to Palpatine's report that spies had located General Grievous and how that could finally lead to peace.order. Saying, "At last, we'll be able to capture that monster and end this war."

It also is brought up at the times he offers both Padme and Luke to rule by his side in Revenge of the Sith and The Empire Strikes Back respectively. Anakin tries justifying his action to Padme when saying, "I have brought peace to the Republic" through the elimination of the Jedi and Seperatists. And telling Luke that together, "With our combined strength we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."

It's interesting to read this all into the context of what direct unfettered action has or has not achieved in the movies. Like the inability to go back and free Shmi by force was a contributing factor to her eventual demise. Or how the liberation of Naboo was accomplished by forgoing the bureaucracy and Padme making the decision to go off and fight on her own in order to free her home without the help of the Senate.

To my understanding this motive in an earlier cut of Episode III was going to be brought closer to the forefront before it was decided that his desire to save Padme was the more important one to focus on. But for me personally, I think there's enough there to see that there was also some more to it. He did come to believe in what the Empire could bring about in being able to force "peace" and "justice" upon the galaxy and that'd be a reason he continued to serve it.

 

Because he has destroyed everything he had in the light side and he has nowhere else to go to. He's trapped.

 

As Torib said, he basically is rationalizing his actions and can't admit that he was wrong. Many years later its his son that makes him realize that he made the wrong decision and so he finally stops rationalizing his actions. You should watch the ROTS audio commentary - Lucas sheds a lot of light on this. Also, I think its implied that the darkside is actually capable of preventing other people from dying, but it's probably not a 100% thing, and it doesn't help when you choke the woman you are trying to save and you make her not want to be with you anymore. The darkside is the stronger side, so it would make sense that you have a better chance of saving the one you love with the darkside. Perhaps in order to achieve this, Anakin needed more years of experience with the darkside like Darth Plageus.

 

but Yoda said the dark side isn't stronger. it's just darksiders ofc think their side is stronger...

 

Yes, Yoda means that it will ultimately be your undoing.

And to the OP - if one wants to scrutinize the PT that much, he can easily tear a part the OT with the same standards.

 

I agree with Torib and Oierem. I'd add this also. The dark side serves Vader's purposes at that point. After the Jedi have been wiped out, his wife's death, and the rise of Empire, Vader's main goal is revenge. He completely realizes that he's been tricked, and he wants to kill the Emperor and replace him. (He was talking about that even at the end of ROTS.) The desire for vengeance fuels the dark side, so Vader's desire to kill off Palpatine is what makes him embrace the dark side.

 

no. luke asks him directly if the dark side is stronger and he says it's not. why would it be?

 

He means that because it ultimately will lead to your undoing, it is not ultimately "the stronger" side. Listen to Lucas's AOTC commentary during the scene where Anakin confesses his slaughter of the Tusken Raiders.

 

i guess i'm wondering what *you* mean by the dark side being stronger.

 

Thanks everyone for your responses and thoughtfulness. I really appreciate it.

Right, he's gone so far and there is nothing to return to. But what motivates his loyalty to Palpatine at this point? Palpatine was his friend prior to all this, yes, but Sidious's failure to follow through on this key piece of their agreement would null all of that, judging by how important it was to Anakin throughout the film.

If Anakin had given up on Padme, thinking she had betrayed him on the docking platform on Mustafar, then I could imagine he simply wouldn't care that the promise wasn't fulfilled. But she is the first thing he asks about after donning the suit. And he quite clearly is very, very upset that she has died.

I've often wondered about this quote, though, why exactly the path is non-reversible. Does Yoda simply mean it's a slippery slope or is it some peculiar, quirky fine print detail about the dark side that it literally consumes you after a handful of thoughts? Either way, this also proves to be a false statement in the end because the destiny of Obi-Wan's apprentice was not in fact dominated forever by the dark path.

Clearly Anakin has political ideologies that favor a more centralized authority, but I don't think he went on a children-chopping massacre because he was that passionate about civics. That feels far too weak. If you made a pie chart of the reasons Anakin turned it would be somewhere around 90% to save Padme and 10% miscellany. And that 90% turned out to be a farce.

I'll admit, this is the head canon I've been surviving on to this point. It's basically a perfect example cognitive dissonance. Anakin did a terrible thing in a rage, and when he comes to, instead of then fixing his behavior to align with his morality, he alters his morality to comply with his actions. This fits wonderfully with his redemption later on, because his altered sense of right and wrong was contrived and synthetic all along.

The problem is this is mostly speculation on our part, and probably wishful thinking because we want this story to make sense. We are missing the key part in the Vader arc, post-RotS where Anakin has to come to terms with what he's done and actually convince himself to become Vader without Padme. All this time he's been willingly marching down a path to become Vader who saves Padme. We need his new motivation after that doesn't happen.

I am not who you think I am.

Wow, I really love this! Thank you. Instead of fearfully making desperate excuses for something that appears like a plot hole, this fully embraces the text and makes the story even richer. He completely realizes that he's been tricked! We know that the Rule of Two is basically a handshake arrangement between master and apprentice: I kill you when I become more powerful, or you replace me if I can't. This is our way. We are Sith.

There's no sense of brotherhood here, no loyalty at all. These are Sith. Vader is not committing to Palpatine at all. He does not feel he owes him anything. He probably begins plotting his revenge immediately. Because vengeance fuels the dark side! Of course! This works for Sidious as well, his apprentice just keeps getting stronger.
Anakin's passion was once to save Padme, but Vader's is vengeance.

The more you think about it the more it makes sense...

 

The darkness had dominated Anakin's destiny till the very end, didn't it? I haven't seen any case of one returning from the Dark to the Light, and living and remaining alright into the Light.

Let's pretend Vader somehow could be saved in the end of ROTJ. Can you image him as a Jedi again? Don't you think he would easily fall to the darkness again?

I don't know what are the statistics (90-10 or so). But you probably have forgotten to consider some big percentage for Anakin feeling betrayed by the Jedi and being sick of their rules and lies. He didn't kill random children: they were Jedi.

I didn't understand what you considered to be a farce. At Anakin's point of view Padme died not because of Palpatine. She died in a accident, while his anger got exaggerated. And it wouldn't have happened if Obi-Wan didn't wanted to take her from him. So, it's Obi-Wan's fault. Again, it's Jedi's fault...

 

"To cheat death is a power only one has achieved but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret." Palpatine never says he has the ability but that it will take time to learn this with an immersion into the dark side. Vader could not fault Palpatine for not helping because he did not at the time have that power.

 

I believe that's all just padding. Without the promise of saving Padme, Anakin is just a disgruntled employee who doesn't like his boss. When it's all on the line, and Anakin makes his decision to kill Windu to save Palpatine, he says "I need him!" And he's not thinking about anything but the magic death-defying powers he's just been promised by Sheev.

I will say though, it's very crafty that it is Windu who Anakin has to betray. It is a very earned moment because there's been so much groundwork laid establishing conflict between the two. That's great story-telling. If it's anyone else standing there about to wield final justice against the Sith, there is probably a different outcome. Anakin is blinded by fear of loss in that moment and there is no one less qualified to get through to Anakin than Mace Windu.

Obviously there is no reason for Anakin to believe Palpatine is at fault for her death but he does explicitly say "I have the power to save the one you love" and never follows through. If you're saying Vader believes Padme died from his force choke and not from childbirth as his vision foretold, so therefore he doesn't hold Palpatine to his promise? I suppose that is reasonable and forgiving on Vader's part to let Sidious off the hook like that, but it isn't very satisfying. Plus we've never known Vader to be reasonable or forgiving.

 

It is stronger in the short term. There is a reason a Sith Lord can take on two Jedi at the same time. Check out the AOTC commentary. Lucas says it himself.

 

Its not really speculation though. Lucas says it in the ROTS commentary. You can make the argument that it wasn't conveyed effectively enough in the film, but after you hear it, the way Hayden plays it all of a sudden makes sense.

I guess that you do not view the OT with rose tinted glasses like a lot of other people do. Fair enough. But seriously, the OT is littered with flaws, a lot of which even I never really picked up on until recently. Anakin's turn in ROTS is actually handled way way better than Luke's near turn in ROTJ.

 

I think he can but it doesn't matter anymore after Padme dies (which I think Vader accepted as his doing). Mainly Palpatine allowed him to think that if he joined him it would guarantee Padme's life. This is a massive deception because once Anakin is on the dark side, he won't love Padme anymore. Even had she not died and he was able to claim her as his possession I'm not sure how long that would have lasted. Palpatine knows all of this and he deliberately didn't tell Anakin how it works (because once Anakin is turned, he knows it will cease to matter anyway). And really Padme can only be a thorn in Palpatine's side after Anakin is turned (she won't be useful to Palpatine anymore); I don't think he ever intended to help Anakin "save" her. So Vader has every reason to hate him for that deception (for being tricked into joining him).

I also wouldn't be surprised if the entire time they were together, Palpatine and Vader didn't work to find the secret to immortality. Vader probably wasn't very interested in it anymore. He's not trying to save people; he's a death machine. He hates himself so furthering his own existence wouldn't be a priority. And he wants to overthrow/destroy the Emperor, not make him immortal. I'm sure the Emperor worked alone trying to figure out how to prolong his own life, but it looks like that didn't work out for him.

 

This is really good to know, thanks. I'll have to hunt that down if it's not available on my digital copy. (Also, does anyone know if the novelization covers this at all? I know it's no longer Canon but it would help.)

And you're right, I don't think it is conveyed well and clearly it's not obvious as evidenced by the wide range of explanations given in this thread. But that is classic Lucas-- a brilliant story writer, but a flawed story teller. Nearly every issue I have with the prequels is a matter of missed execution and never anything regarding story or character. I believe the answer to Vader's motivation is out there, I'm just not seeing it. It's debatable whether that's a fault of mine or the film.

Also, I'm nearly 100% certain Lucas thought this out, and it's possible that he left this ambiguous for good reason. There's no great way to illustrate Vader's thoughts at this point, because he's lost everyone to confide in until Luke comes along. And he's certainly not going to dialogue his feelings of betrayal to his master. So from a film maker's perspective, what can you do?

I'm just spitballing, but imagine after Vader hears the news of Padme's death and instead of the controversial "nooooooooi" we see him take a few slow steps away from Sidious, disoriented, stunned, devastated. Then he gathers himself, pensive, clearly thinking something through, calculating his new world, silently. And then after a pause, bends his knee and bows before his master once again. Boom. Imperial march, roll credits. That's all I'd need!

 

Controversial NO? I don‘t think that No could be controversial at all, except in the cases where the person says as “well, errr, no“. There is nothing controversial in the roar of pain and suffering followed by the last word spoken by Anakin in the next ~20 years.
Anakin couldn‘t handdle his emotions. And in the same time the strong emotions are essencial part of his character and he is Anakin because of this. This can‘t be and moreover shouldn‘t be shown silently. Is it cheesy? If you mean melodramatic, yes, it is as every similar dramatic moment in whatever movie of that kind. This is not biopicture, is space opera, it has this type of moments, that are important as symbol and poetry of what is happening.

 

Actually, Vader would definitely fault PalpSidious. He made him believe the dark side would help Vader save Padme but he found out the hard way that its a lie. Vader may hate himself for killing Padme (or so he thinks) but he also hates PalpSidious for lying and tricking him into killing the Jedi and ruining his own life.

 

Darth Vader and the Lost Command answers the question for me.