Why Doesn't QGJ Contact The Jedi For Help?

To those who feel that Qui-gon and OB1 are involved in some kind of insurrection, please consider this: As someone said, the Jedi are not lawbreakers nor are they the villains in the movie. Chancellor Valorum sent the Jedi as ambassadors to Naboo to find out what's going on and why the Nemoidians are blockading Naboo, probably at the instigation of the Senator from Naboo, Palpatine. It is the legitimate function of any head of state to send ambassadors to anywhere he/she feels necessary with or witout the approval of a senate or any other body. This is something that happens in the real world all the time!
Since the Jedi are never perceived as the villains and outlaws in the movie (Maul, the Nemoidians and Sidious/Palpatine are the villains), one must assume that they are on a legitimate and lawful mission on behalf of the chancellor and galactic senate. Once again, the Jedi are sent as ambassadors to Naboo, not as spys, crooks, outlaws or any other such thing!

 

((( gez - "If their mission was an act of insurrection, as you say, then why would they even risk being seen? They'd land in a hanger and get out seperately. No, your logic doesn't make sense."

PMT - The safety of the Naboo people outweighs their services to the Republic. That is why they took the risk and for your information, they were on a landing platform that's far, far away from the galactic senate chamber. )))

Whaaat??
Suddenly when they get to Coruscant they throw caution to the wind and decide to get out in public view, even tho they could easily land in a hangar.
You now say that the safety of the naboo people is paramount and yet in your scenario they wait around on Tatooine for 2 days rather than call the Jedi for help. But when they get to Coruscant suddenly they think 'To hell with being cautious, we'll land in full public view'.
What you're saying makes no sense.

The reason they land in the open is because they have nothing to hide.

Qui-Gon couldn't contact the Jedi for help even if he wanted to.

Your evidence of this ...?

The Chancellor will tell them the plan of action just as Palpatine told them his when he suggested that an army for the republic be assembled "to counter the increasing threats of the Seperatists".

And the chancellor's words in the Senate aren't a secret. When they decide to go to war it isn't a secret.
I'll ask again - "How can the mission be secret if the entire Senate (which comprises hundreads, thousands of people) know about it???"

You do understand what "secret" mean don't you?

((( gez - If this mission was an act of insurrection then the Nemoidians would know this (they're represented in the Senate) and when QG arrives they'd just tell him to get lost or else they'll be telling the senate about this Jedi act of insurrection."

PMT - If the Nemoidians tell the Senate about the Jedi's involvement in the Naboo situation, the Senate will ask them to prove it. If the Nemoidians offer the Senate their proof, then they automatically expose their illegal operation on Naboo because it will show the Nemoidians deploying their droid armies in an attempt to invade Naboo and take control of it. )))

Look at the exchange above - notice how (once again!) you've managed to ignore the key point, even with me underlining it!! See the words: "and when QG arrives" ? When QG arrives the Nemoidians aren't doing anything illegal, and they aren't even on Naboo at this point.
What's the point in debating with you if you repeatedly ignore points even when they're underlined?

((( gez - Think about this - according to you their mission is an act of insurrection, so QG knows this, the JC know this and yet they go ahead knowing that if the Nemoidians tell the Senate (and they would) the JC will be dismantled.

Do you seriously think that makes any sense?"

PMT - Knowing that the Nemoidians would risk getting themselves in trouble in the process, it makes perfect sense that Qui-Gon and the Council took the risk.

But they don't know any such thing . When the JC send QG on the mission they don't know that the Nemoidians have an invasion army or are planning any illegal activity.

g

 

"What's the point in debating with you if you repeatedly ignore points even when they're underlined?"


Talk about ignoring the points other people make!!

 

Loco For Lucas-"You've pretty much nullified your entire point right there."

I haven't nullified anything because even with the lives of the Naboo people at stake, it would still be too dangerous to call for help like Qui-Gon pointed out.

Darth Geist-"Yet the reach the Senators' apartments in a short taxi trip. After meeting in plain sight, surrounded by witnesses."

First of all, the Jedi were NOT in Palpatine's apartment since they stayed on the landing platform to tell Valorum about the "complicated" situation and second, the only people that were there aside from Palpatine and Valorum are those blue gaurds but they're too busy gaurding the Chancellor to know what's going on.

"As far as your fervent believe that intelligeance agencies should broadcast whatever they're doing to whoever can hear them, come back when you've learned the meaning of the terms "security clearence" and "need-to-know"."

Now, you're being a hypocrite.

You expect me to believe that unless a terrorist incident has occured, The President and our government should remain clueless until someone shoves an explosive up their asses? I think YOU should know the meaning of the term "need-to-know" because that's what I've been trying to tell you.

"And if you somehow believe that the Senate would have launcehed into action as soon as it had proof of the invasion, you were watching the wrong movie."

I believe you are the one watching the wrong movie because if you'd listen to what Panaka said, If the Senate ever found out that the Trade Fedearation made an illegal invasion on Naboo, they'd have their franchise revoked and they would be finished.

Gezvader28-
"Whaaat?
Suddenly when they get to Coruscant they throw caution to the wind and decide to get out in public view, even tho they could easily land in a hangar.
You now say that the safety of the naboo people is paramount and yet in your scenario they wait around on Tatooine for 2 days rather than call the Jedi for help. But when they get to Coruscant suddenly they think 'To hell with being cautious, we'll land in full public view'
What you're saying makes no sense.

The reason they land in the open is because they have nothing to hide."

Except their involvement because the opening scroll clearly states that Qui-Gon and Obi-wan were secretly dispatched to Naboo and they're NOT in public view when there's only Palpatine, Valorum, and the blue gaurds to greet them because they're involved in this matter as well.

"Your evidence of this...?"

"It's too dangerous to call for help."
"It sounds like bait to establish a connection trace."

Qui-Gon doesn't want to risk the radio transmissions being traced by anyone, especially the Trade Feds or the Senate.

"And the chancellor's words in the Senate aren't a secret. When they decide to go to war it isn't a secret.
I'll ask again-"How can the mission be secret if the entire Senate (which compromises hundreads, thousands of people) know about it???"

The Senate are the ones who organized these missions and they give the Chancellor approval to deploy the Jedi on these missions in the same way they gave Palpatine approval to create a clone army.

"Look at the exchange above-notice how (once again!) you've managed to ignore the key point, even with me underlining it!! See the words: "and when QG arrives"? When QG arrives the Nemoidians aren't doing anything illegal, and they aren't even on Naboo at this point."

But Nute Gunray IS and so is Rune Hakko and other Nemoidians who are operating the Droid Control Battleships. The ones that were refuting Padme's accusations in the Senate Chamber know that they can't snitch on the Jedi knowing that they risk having the Jedi support Padme's accusations thus exposing their illegal operation.

"What's the point in debating with you if you repeatedly ignore points even when they're underined?"

I'm not ignoring your points but you're ignoring mine. Every time I answer you, you always pretend that you're not listening and continue posting the same qu

 

First of all, the Jedi were NOT in Palpatine's apartment since they stayed on the landing platform to tell Valorum about the "complicated" situation...

*sigh* We're talking about how far they were from Palpatine's apartment, PMT. Not who went where.

...and second, the only people that were there aside from Palpatine and Valorum are those blue gaurds but they're too busy gaurding the Chancellor to know what's going on.

Leaving aside the fact that "gaurds" of that caliber make it their job to watch everyone and observe everything, you've forgotten not only the cab driver, but anyone else who might happen to fly by or look out a window.

Valorum met his supposed "co-conspirators" personally, in plain sight. Even Nixon would never have been that dumb.

There is no basis for your conspiracy. None. You made it up. You've as much as admitted that already. Why are you still clinging to it now?

"As far as your fervent believe that intelligeance agencies should

Now, you're being a hypocrite.

You expect me to believe that unless a terrorist incident has occured, The President and our government should remain clueless until someone shoves an explosive up their asses?

PMT, you don't know how intelligence agencies work or communicate (let me again point you to the words "security clearance"). You're pretending that they broadcast everything, when they clearly don't, because your make-believe conspiracy depends on it. That's all.

By the way, "hypocrite?" I don't think it means what you think it means.

I believe you are the one watching the wrong movie because if you'd listen to what Panaka said, If the Senate ever found out that the Trade Fedearation made an illegal invasion on Naboo, they'd have their franchise revoked and they would be finished.

PMT, the Senate Chamber sequence went out of its way to show, at every turn, that the Senate had decayed to the point of being useless, and that even if the law were on Naboo's side, no one would enforce it. Do you not understand that?

Why do you think Amidala didn't wait around for the Senate to take care of things for her? Because they never would have. The film makes that absolutely clear.

Making up extra material for movies you like is all well and good, but recognize the difference between what you yourself invent and what's actually there.

 

"*sigh* We're talking about how far they were from Palpatine's apartment, PMT. Not who went where."

But we don't see Palpatine's apartment anywhere near the landing platform when Amidala's ship landed so what makes you think that the taxi trip is that short?

"Leaving aside the fact that "gaurds" of that caliber make it their job to watch everyone and observe everything, you've forgotten not only the cab driver, but anyone else who might happen to fly by or look out a window."

The cab driver ought to have the same knowledge that we have about this movie to know what's going on but he doesn't and anyone in either the flying cars or the buildings will be too busy with their own affairs to have any interest in Valorum's private meeting with the Jedi.

"Valorum met his supposed "co-conspirators" personally, in plain sight. Even Nixon would never have been that dumb."

One thing I've learned about the prequals is that the best place to hide is in *plain sight*. None of the Jedi know or sense that Palpatine is a Sith Lord and he's standing right in front of their faces so if it's easy for him to do that, then its easy for Valorum to conspire with Qui-Gon and Obi-wan.

"There is no basis for your conspiracy. None. You made it up. You've as much as admitted that already. Why are you still clinging to it now?"

What have I admitted? Nothing. You are the one making things up by saying that anyone is above the law as long as nobody knows about it but that is NOT true. A law is still broken regardless of whether or not somebody knows about it and when the cops find evidence or witnesses, the suspect will be sent to jail.

"PMT, you don't know how intelligeance agencies work or communicate (let me point you to the words "security clearence"). You're pretending that they broadcast everything, when they clearly don't, because your make-believe conspiracy depends on it. That's all."

THIS ISN'T PRETEND OR MAKE-BELIEVE!

"Security Clearence" doesn't give intelligeance agencies the right to withhold information from the President. If they have info surrounding terrorist activities, then it's best to inform the President so he can deploy the armed forces to combat against terrorism.

What good is our troops if they know nothing of what's happening in the world?

"By the way, "hypocrite?" I don't think it means what you think it means."

I know exactly what it means.

First, you say that intelligeance agencies shouldn't say jack to the President and now you say only in a need-to-know basis(which I have been saying over and over)? Which is it?

"PMT, the Senate Chamber sequence went out of its way to show, at every turn, that the Senate had decayed to the point of being useless, and that even if the law were on Naboo's side, no one would enforce it."

Nobody but the Jedi. They weren't called the "defenders of peace and justice" for nothing.

"Do you not understand that?"

I understand that just because the Senate is decaying doesn't mean they will not act against any incoming threat. They didn't sit around and wait for the Seperatists to unleash their droid armies on them, did they? NO, they sent the clone armies upon the Seperatists' turf for a pre-emptive strike so they would have done something about the Naboo invasion if they knew it was happening.

"Why do you think Amidala didn't wait for the Senate to take care of things for her? Because they never would have. The film makes that absolutely clear."

You don't know that.

Several senators have asked Amidala for proof that her home planet is being invaded by the Trade Federation and she didn't have any so how does she expect the Senate to help her when she has no proof?

"Making up extra material for movies you like is all well and good, but recognize the difference between what you yourself invent and what's actually there."

I already know the difference and your making up stuff as well.

 

But we don't see Palpatine's apartment anywhere near the landing platform when Amidala's ship landed so what makes you think that the taxi trip is that short?

For one thing, it's a taxi. For another, we see the taxi's trip. Your claim that they met far from anywhere important holds no water.

The cab driver ought to have the same knowledge that we have about this movie to know what's going on but he doesn't and anyone in either the flying cars or the buildings will be too busy with their own affairs to have any interest in Valorum's private meeting with the Jedi.

That's a hefty assumption, PMT; would you make that same assumption, as you claim Valorum did, if your job and the stability of the Republic were at stake (as you relentlessly claim that they are)?

"Valorum met his supposed "co-conspirators" personally, in plain sight. Even Nixon would never have been that dumb."

One thing I've learned about the prequals is that the best place to hide is in *plain sight*. None of the Jedi know or sense that Palpatine is a Sith Lord and he's standing right in front of their faces so if it's easy for him to do that, then its easy for Valorum to conspire with Qui-Gon and Obi-wan.

Palpatine is a Machiavellian genius. Valorum is a doddering fool. Palpatine is well-liked. Valorum has enemies, and when you have political enemies, they watch your every move. Sorry, but there's no comparison there.

"There is no basis for your conspiracy. None. You made it up. You've as much as admitted that already. Why are you still clinging to it now?"

What have I admitted? Nothing. You are the one making things up by saying that anyone is above the law as long as nobody knows about it but that is NOT true. A law is still broken regardless of whether or not somebody knows about it and when the cops find evidence or witnesses, the suspect will be sent to jail.

Show me which law they broke, PMT. Not one you made up, one from the film. Show me.

Again, you've got no ground for your conspiracy, other than that your argument depends on it.

THIS ISN'T PRETEND OR MAKE-BELIEVE!

PMT, I hate to break it to you, but... never mind.

"Security Clearence" doesn't give intelligeance agencies the right to withhold information from the President. If they have info surrounding terrorist activities, then it's best to inform the President so he can deploy the armed forces to combat against terrorism.



Who said anything about withholding information from the President, PMT?

What good is our troops if they know nothing of what's happening in the world?

Troops are told exactly what they need to know to do their job, and nothing more.

"By the way, "hypocrite?" I don't think it means what you think it means."

I know exactly what it means.

No, you don't. A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does another?not someone who contradicts himself, which I haven't.

First, you say that intelligeance agencies shouldn't say jack to the President

No, PMT, I didn't say that. You're imagining things again.

and now you say only in a need-to-know basis(which I have been saying over and over)? Which is it?

As repeatedly explained, only people with the proper clearance and the need to know, such as the President, have access to the information we're talking about. If you're trying to argue that the entire Senate of any country, real or fictional, has that clearance, you don't know what you're talking about.

Nobody but the Jedi. They weren't called the "defenders of peace and justice" for nothing.

And their help consisted of two guys, who wouldn't have gone had Amidala not led the charge. ("I can only protect you. I can't fight a war for you.")

"Do you not understand that?"

I understand that just because the Senate is decaying doesn't mean they will not act against any incoming threat. They didn't sit around and wait for the Seperatists to unlea

 

Palpatine is a Machiavellian genius.

Or is that GL?

 

Except their involvement because the opening scroll clearly states that Qui-Gon and Obi-wan were secretly dispatched to Naboo and they're NOT in public view when there's only Palpatine, Valorum, and the blue gaurds to greet them because they're involved in this matter as well.

They're surrounded by skyscrapers. If this mission was an act of insurrection why would they even risk being seen? They could easily land in a hangar. The film just doesn't support your theory.
And "secret" doesn't mean "illegal".

Qui-Gon doesn't want to risk the radio transmissions being traced by anyone, especially the Trade Feds or the Senate.

Obviously he's worried about the TF but there's no evidence that he's worried about the Senate hearing it.

The Senate are the ones who organized these missions and they give the Chancellor approval to deploy the Jedi on these missions in the same way they gave Palpatine approval to create a clone army.

No. It's not the same way at all. The clone army matter was not a secret.
The entire senate can't be told about a secret mission, it would be absurd.

But Nute Gunray IS and so is Rune Hakko and other Nemoidians who are operating the Droid Control Battleships. The ones that were refuting Padme's accusations in the Senate Chamber know that they can't snitch on the Jedi knowing that they risk having the Jedi support Padme's accusations thus exposing their illegal operation.

That all happens AFTER.
When QG is sent on the mission all they expect is to settle and negotiate the TF's blockade. They don't know the TF is planning an invasion.
So why would they risk commiting insurrection to settle a matter which isn't even illegal.

You've no evidence that they were committing insurrection other than to equate "secret" with "insurection". And to use all sorts of events which happened AFTER the JC decided (according to you) to commit an act of insurrection.

But as soon as they do, Qui-Gon and the Council know that the Nemoidians will not snitch on them knowing that they'll get themselves in trouble in the process.

But that's all AFTER they've decided to go on the mission.

A SECRET mission is just that - secret. The guy who asked for it , Vallorum, has the authority to do so, the guys who carried it out, the Jedi, regularly go on secret missions.

A secret mission can't be announced in the senate, how could it be a secret if hundreds of people know about it?

Let me ask you:
Are the Jedi authorised to go on secret missions?
Yes?

But you think the whole senate should know?
Yes?
How can they be secret if the whole senate knows about it?

g

 

Nevermind.

 

Darth Geist-"For one thing, it's a taxi. For another, we see the taxi's trip. Your claim that they met far from anywhere important holds no water."

You claimed that the taxi trip was short but Palpatine's apartment was nowhere to be seen when Amidala's ship was making its landing. We do NOT see the apartment until we go to the next scene so it is your claims that don't hold any water.

"That's a hefty assumption, PMT; would you make that same assumption, as you claim Valorum did, if your job and the stability of the Republic were at stake (as you relentlessly claim that they are)?"

Wouldn't you? How many people in the galaxy, much less those on Coruscant really cares about politics and what politicians such as Valorum do in the Senate? As Anakin said, "the biggest problem in the universe is that nobody helps each other" so not many people care a great deal about what Valorum does.

"Palpatine is a Machiavellian genius. Valorum is a doddering fool. Palpatine is well-liked. Valorum has enemies, and when you have political enemies, they watch your every move. Sorry, but there's no comparison there."

Valorum isn't a fool, he's just a wrongfully-accused man "mired with baseless accusations" and besides, how many many enemies does Valorum have? None that we know of. How many people are aware that Valorum sent 2 Jedi to Naboo? Only 1 which is Palpatine and he's involved in this matter so yes, we have a comparison.

"Show me which law they broke, PMT. Not one you made up, one from the film. Show me.

They committed the act of espionage(being sent to Naboo secretly to settle the trade dispute), insurrection(going without the Senate's approval), and obstruction of justice(not telling the Senate about the invasion on Naboo).

Again, you've got no ground for your conspiracy, other than that your argument depends on it."

Read above.

"

Who said anything about withholding information from the president, PMT?"

You did because back on page 4, you said this:

"Intelligeance agencies can keep their work secret because they operate independently."

If that's true, then they would have to withhold a lot of information from the president since they don't work for him nor do they have to answer to him.


"Troops are told exactly what they need to know to do their job, and nothing more."

Thanks for proving my point.

The troops have to be told what they need to know if they are to act immediately against enemy threats.

"No, you don't."

Yes, I do.

"A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does another-not someone who contradicts himself, which I haven't."

A hypocrite DOES contradict himself when he says one thing and does another which you have just done with that response above.

"No, PMT, I didn't say that. You're imagining things again."

The words I bolded above show that you DID say exactly that. If intelligeance agencies operate independently, then they can't say jack to the president.

"As repeatedly explained, only people with the proper clearence and the need to know, such as the president, have access to the information we're talking about. If you're trying to argue that the entire Senate of any country, real or fictional, has that clearence, you don't know what you're talking about."

I'm not talking about the Senate of any country, just the U.S senate because if the threat is serious, then they have every right to know as much as the President does.

"Only because the Seperatists threatened them directly, as a whole. They plainly didn't care about Naboo, whether or not it was a member."

There's no proof that the Senate didn't care about Naboo. Just because they don't know what's happening on the planet doesn't mean that they don't care-case in point, the Geonosis incident.

"She did."

They don't.

The Senate only know about the Trade Federation's blockade on Naboo to protest against the outlying of trade routes but they don't know anything about an invasion. How does Padme expect them to help her when they don't have the sa

 

PMT, if you're going to quote someone,

1) Learn to spell.
2) Understand what you're quoting.

The sentence you copied was part of an explanation on why intelligence agencies only share their information with certain people; only those with the proper security clearance (such as, say, the President) who also have a need to know.

You've had this explained to you repeatedly, but you've consistently failed to understand it, and in fact you still think it means the opposite of what it means.

Then again, when you start insisting, "There is NO hangar anywhere on Coruscant" (a ridiculous statement by any stretch of a sane man's imagination), it's obvious you're not thinking straight.

 

"Show me which law they broke, PMT. Not one you made up, one from the film. Show me."

They committed the act of espionage(being sent to Naboo secretly to settle the trade dispute), insurrection(going without the Senate's approval), and obstruction of justice(not telling the Senate about the invasion on Naboo).

You still failed to show a law from the film that makes their actions illegal. You're proving Geist right in what he's saying, you have no ground for your point, so you're pretty much making things up.

 

Hoping to fuel the fire , here's Steve Sansweet's comment from the O.S.:

Quote

In the opening crawl to the The Phantom Menace, you'll note that it specifically says that "Chancellor Valorum has secretly dispatched two Jedi?".

There's the key word: secretly.

The Jedi weren't really supposed to be there. ("The chancellor should never have brought them into this," says Sidious). Valorum, knowing full well of the Senate's inefficiencies, didn't bring the matter of sending Jedi ambassadors to a vote. So, he took it under his own authority to send the Jedi to Naboo.

Already mired in "scandal and baseless accusation," Valorum couldn't bring up the unauthorized Jedi mission for fear of political recrimination.

 

lol

Nothing that hasn't been brought up already, open. Sorry.

 

I think this is akin to asking why the Great Eagles weren't used a little more often in the Lord of the Rings - just think of the time it could have saved them

 

That's actually discussed in the commentary for the movies; unlike TPM, that wasn't an oversight.

 

Just one of Tolkien's more glaring plotholes

 

Uh huh, excuse me sir, but I do believe your herring is looking a little red.

 

This has been going a lot longer than it needs to have been.

As you see from the script, the Jedi are clearly called Ambassadors of the Chancellor by all parties--Republic and Trade Federation officials alike.

I ask you, what is the purpose of ambassadors?

To mediate a resolution to a problem.

Since when has it been illegal, in any sovereign place, to send ambassadors inside your own territory, to deal with a dispute occuring entirely inside your territory, and exclusively between people of your own territory?

So then I guess it's not illegal then, is it?

 

Jabba, do Ambassadors normally "command" others to reach a settlement? Or only Jedi capable of doing that?