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Why doesn't Yoda train Obi instead of waiting for Luke?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by yankee8255, Oct 17, 2005.

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  1. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    A thought that just occurred to me after seeing the "Was Yoda scared of the Emporer": The end of ROTS makes it clear that Yoda has decided that he can't defeat the Emperor, and that the only hope for defeating him rests in Luke.

    On the one hand, Luke, as Anakin's son, is likely to also be as powerful in the force as he was. On the other hand, though, he is also likely to suffer from the same shortcomings, and eventually suffer the same fate and turn to the dark side. So it's a big risk, and Yoda voices his doubts about Luke repeatedly in ESB.

    Doesn't Obi-Wan provide an alternative? He's still pretty young, and quite powerful in the force. And he's about as rooted in the light side as you can be, no chance of him turning. His big shortcoming is sabre fighting, as evidenced by his poor showing against Dooku twice. But couldn't Yoda have worked on that with him? Or is Obi just a career minor-leaguer?
     
  2. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Obi-Wan: I'm getting too old for this sort of thing.-ANH.

    Obi-Wan clearly said that he was too old to fight by the time Luke was ready to go, but if you mean if Yoda made Obi-Wan go fight Vader and Palpy almost after RoTS, well, i'm pretty sure he would be ablt to take down Vader, but i'm not sure about the Emperor.
     
  3. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    To be clear:

    I mean some time between ROTS and ANH. Clearly he doesn't stand a chance against the Emperor in ROTS, as Yoda clearly states. And by the time of ANH, he's clearly too old, as OB1 states. I mean a few years (2-5 max) after ROTS, following a few years of gruelling sabre training on Dagobah.

    Also, obviously there is the whole 'chosen one' idea. But seeing how badly that's worked out with Anakin, and that we never know whether Yoda ever really embraced the idea to begin with (he even makes a number of statements expressing skepticism, at least as to whether Anakin is the one), why not give Obi the chance.
     
  4. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 20, 2005
    Yeah the plan should of been. to go into exile. Meet up and train further. OBI-Wan was a master, so his training may be near the limit. But right after the Birth of Vader. Yoda and Obi should of used their efforts to make a return journey to try and defeat the Emperor and Vader especially if they take them out together.

    Of course Palps ensured that the Jedi's were not to be trusted, as he told everyone and the rebellion was weak, so the odds were massively stacked against them. Yoda and Obi should of sustained more injuries at the end of ROTS and to come out of it more defeated then what they were.
     
  5. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

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    Apr 6, 2000
    Or is Obi just a career minor-leaguer?

    :mad: !

    He kills Maul and Grievous, and chops chosen one into little pieces! Obi-Wan is as major league as they come [face_shame_on_you]

    Obi-Wan planned to watch out for Luke on Tatooine in case he should ever be discovered, he felt he failed Anakin and had a responsibility to look out for his son, if he had gone and got himself killed Luke may have been at greater risk.
     
  6. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    But he beat Maul thianks to desperation, "hail Mary" move, and Grievous is so inept in ROTS taht Jake Lloyd could have taken him.
     
  7. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2005
    Yoda couldn't even defeat the Emperor. I don't think Obi-Wan could ever become more powerful than Yoda no matter how much training he went through. Yoda had the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi besides Anakin and his offspring. In the ROTS novelisation, Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he will never be strong enough to fight the Emperor. Luke is the person who has the potential to beat the Emperor because he's Anakin's son.
     
  8. Siths_Revenge

    Siths_Revenge Jedi Youngling star 7

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    Jul 27, 2004
    No. Besides Obi Wan is more powerful as a living spirit.
     
  9. the-shrude-dude

    the-shrude-dude Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 4, 2005
    its also not about defeating the people concerned. Its about destroying the clutch the dark side appears to have gained over the universe.
     
  10. General Kenobi

    General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 31, 1998
    You can argue about how much Yoda & Obi-Wan believed in the ability of Luke to actually defeat the Sith himself, and how much they were now following the "will of the Force". Clearly, Luke was destined not to defeat Palpatine, rather to turn the Chosen One back and allow him to destroy the Sith. Obi-Wan didn't have much luck with turning Anakin back on Mustafar.
     
  11. LizardJedi

    LizardJedi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 29, 2005
    Also, it dosn't look like Obi even wanted to kill Anakin. He had the chance in ROTS, but he just left him there to die.. he didn't want to give the fatal blow.
     
  12. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    Because Yoda wasn't willing to risk losing everything. If Obi-Wan gets killed by either Vader or Palpatine, Luke is left completely unprotected. Obi-Wan being able to change his name slightly to Ben and being able to blend in with the locals on Tattooine is NOT the same as Yoda trying it. If Kenobi fights, Luke is completely unprotected from the Sith if Obi-Wan fails. If Obi-Wan is killed, eventually either Vader or Palpatine find Luke on Tattooine, and Luke is either killed, thus ensuring Sith domininion that way, or they take Luke and train him as a Sith. With no Obi-Wan, the odds are even more heavily in favor of the Sith controlling the galaxy for a long time. Considering the best Yoda could get was a standstill, I don't think Yoda felt Obi-Wan could handle fighting both Vader and Palpatine. Obi was damn good...but, he would have needed to be complete badass Bruce Lee Jedi to beat both of them, and all Obi could hope for was to be complete badass Jet Li Jedi.
     
  13. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 1999
    I think part of the problem is that even if Yoda and Obi Wan managed to kill Vader and/ or the Emperor, defeat would have still been inevitable. Say Obi Wan or Yoda--or both--launch a kamikaze assault on Coruscant and fight their way to the Imperial castle or whatever stronghold Vader and Palpatine reside in. There are many problems.

    Firstly, Vader is irrelevant. Yoda could easily kill him and Obi Wan would probably be able to as well. But so what? Killing Vader accomplishes nothing, other than perhaps annoying the Emperor. But say the near-impossible happens and somehow they are not only able to penetrate into the throne room but they are able to DEFEAT AND KILL the Emperor. I think it is a virtual guarantee that they would not be able to escape alive--it would have to essentially be a suicide mission. The Emperor can die, but so must they--probably a fair trade. So now the Emperor is dead. Horay! But so what? The problem is not the Emperor, it is the Empire. If Palpatine is assasinated, Tarkin will simply step in and become the new Emperor and continue where Palpatine left off. So say some rebels kills Emperor Tarkin? Well, again, another will simply assume the role of dictator.

    The Empire is by that point an established system, so complex and deep-rooted that it is beyond one mere man. It exists not only in figureheads and governments, but in the hearts and minds of the citizens. Whether or not the Emperor is alive, the jedi will still be regarded as treacherous traitors, aliens regarded as less civilized than humans, stormtroopers and imperial officers regarded as superior supermen to be obeyed, and fascism will continue to rule.

    The thing is that the Empire can only fall if it is taken down by the mob, only if it is usurped on all levels, and on a massive scale. For this reason, the only hope for change is the Rebel Alliance. This is the only reason victory is eventually achieved.

    Even Luke's eventual "victory" was useless. He did not actually achieve anything practical--his battle and his victory was a personal one. Confronting Vader and defeating the Emperor were merely personal goals; it was the Rebels who were actually responsible for the victory.

    So, looking at it this way, the only way Yoda and Obi Wan could actually help out would be to join the Alliance. But again, this would be equally useless, as the Rebelliion lacked any substantial resources. In fact, it would be two decades before they finally amassed the necessary forces to secure a single victory, and by then Obi Wan and Yoda were past their expiration date.

    So really, Luke and Leia really are the only hope. They are young, strong in the force, and most importantly, leaders in the Rebellion.
     
  14. Darth_Jaytastic

    Darth_Jaytastic Jedi Youngling

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    Jun 2, 2005
    Kind of related to this...why don't yoda and Obi-won go TOGETHER to fight the empereor? Gee, what a novel idea. Strength in numbers, and the other times we saw two vs one, the two prevailed (although one of them bit it)

    They should have attacked Palps together, and if that didnt work, then fall back on plan b:luke or plan c: leia. And if nothing else, plan d: join the dark side.
     
  15. lorn_zahl

    lorn_zahl Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 19, 2002



    Well said, lets not forget that popular oppinion was against the Jedi after ROTS, not for them. It's not like they could go walking down the street, they're wanted men. They wouldn't even have made it to the Emporer's room and thats if they found him before the emporer found them...which is doubtful.



     
  16. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    I had thought about this too, why not put off facing Vader/Anakin and go after Palps together first, then go after Vader once Palpatine has been taken care of. Of course, given what we've seen of the Jedi's joint fighting skills (OB1&Ani vs dooku x2, Mace and the Folding-chair posse vs. Palp) you could understand why Yoda decided to go it alone.
     
  17. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 20, 2005
     
  18. Darth_SomethingWitty

    Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 29, 2005
    Two major points. One, neither Yoda nor Obi Wan can get close enough to the Emperor with the support they would need to defeat the Emperor. The Emperor has thousands of Stormtrooper at his disposal and those dudes in red who look pretty nasty and are probably force-trained to some degree. Second, only Luke could hope to bring Vader back to the light as well as do so while close enough to the Emperor to strike. Essentially, they need a situation thta played out almost exactly as it did; no way could Yoda or Obi Wan have stormed the Death Star unnoticed by both Vader and the Emperor, and defeated both while dozens of Stormtroopers fired at them and the red dudes did whatever it is they do. Nope, the Emperor had to imagine he was getting a new Apprentice in Luke, set him against Vader in a "personal" setting, Luke turns Vader abck to the Light and they destroy Palp together. Any scenario involving storming or sneaking onto Palpatine's ship or Death Star would leave them lying in a pool of their own innards wondering why the name "Custer" kept running through their minds as they bled out...

    However, what Luke did was effectively kill the #1 and #2 men in a tightly held Dictatorship. In the US, we have a pretty clear succession if the Prez and VP are killed, but I doubt that was the case in the Empire. Essentially, killing the Emperor and Vader turned the Empire into a splintered group of military units throughout the Galaxy with no defined leadership. Certainly, some of them would continue to fight under regional leadership, but I would imagine that many might surrender and many worlds that sat quietly under the Empire's fist joined the Alliance, adding their support to the rebellion. Aye, the rebels did the work in many ways, but Luke cut the head of the beast off in a very decisive way.
     
  19. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    It's certainly clear that Luke can get to Vader, he's done it beofre. But remember, they want hiim to face and defeat Vader, and clearly indicate that they think he's making a huge mistake if he tries to bring him back to the good/light side. We have no idea what they have planned once Vader is out of the way in terms of getting at the Emporer. That Luke turns out to be right, and Vader actually brings Luke to the Emporer, is completely serendipidous.
     
  20. skyysoblue

    skyysoblue Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Jul 15, 2005
    Perhaps they realized that ultimately Anakin had to be turned away from the dark side and the only people that would be able to do so were his children.
     
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