ST Why don’t these movies “FEEL” like Star Wars?

Hux is a different type of officer for sure, but we're not really calling Jerjerrod a three dimensional character are we?

 

I would agree that it's a stretch. But on the other hand, Jerjerrod was a normal officer. As well as Piett. And Tarkin.

There is something about these Imperial bureaucrats that makes them seem more human than Admiral Hux. Perhaps it's because they were either men following orders or men who have a good enough calm and smugness that doesn't require them to go over the top.

Hux sneers and cackles at the idea of destroying the Resistance like a dastardly villain. Any attempt at seriousness is undermined by either by the Resistance making a prank call on his communication or Snoke and Kylo Ren tossing him around like a ragdog. Whereas Tarkin is calm and simply waits for the Rebellion's doom. He feels untouchable and that's makes him such a despicable character that audience want to seem him fall.

That's what made Dolores Umbridge, Amon Goeth, and various other Hux-like figures more effective as a hate sink than Hux himself.

 

I think that's fine to feel that way. I just think we need to be careful when comparing X character to X other characters. They're different. Hux is a true weasel. Yes, his pomposity makes him look like a fool, but his sadism and the power he commands still makes him dangerous. Personally, I like that his comrades see through him. I don't need him to be Tarkin. He's the alt-right in a uniform, which feels pretty fitting for a 2017 SW villain. I do see the argument about the humour undercutting him at times though (and I think if the movie just pulled back in general on this front in three or four places it would have been even better) and it'd be interesting to see the same film with that toned down. I'd probably go with that tweak myself. Weirdly though, I like him more in TLJ than TFA. I think it's because he feels more like his own character and less like young Tarkin. Rabid cur is not something we've seen in SW before but I can enjoy that enough for what it is without it becoming a major issue. Appreciate that others have different mileage on this though.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have mind Hux to be this buffoon as long as there is at least one villain that acts like a real Knight of Cerebus. For every General Grevious and Nute Gunray, there is a Darth Sidious manipulating the big picture. Snoke should have been the logical choice. But his death and the fact that Kylo Ren took over (and he's still less mature than any Dark Sider) undermined that given premise and now I relegate Snoke into the same category as Hux. And when all the baddies are undermined by incompetence or being the butt end of the joke, there's not really much of threat to worry about for our heroes when they are reduced to 12.

 

I think Kylo is going to be way more interesting than Snoke as a villain. His unpredictability is what makes him interesting. I think we're going to see him burning the galaxy down.

 

My thoughts EXACTLY.

Sure, we know all this by having to go out and read the books that came out with TFA. Or hear what was stated by directors after the movie's release. That's not good story-telling, ESPECIALLY where SW is concerned.

God, ain't that the truth?

Exactly, yes!! God, but the way the world currently works, it only makes sense that they sink their claws into SW.....

 

One of my favorite characters in TLJ was that elderly Star Destroyer bridge officer who had a ring of old school to him. He had probably served during the OT and I couldn't help but wonder what that character thought about Hux being his superior officer.

Probably something along the lines of that Chinese reviewer:

"The most upvoted review complains that “the whole film really insults the IQ of its audience,” and demands to know how the universe could possibly be ruled by such an incompetent Galactic Empire. “In Star Wars, it seems only Darth Vader had a brain — it’s such a shame he’s already dead,” the reviewer concludes."

 

Talking about the Dreadnought officer? Then yes, Captain Canady was somebody who actually served in the old Empire. It shows when he remarks that they should've scrambled their fighters, FIVE BLOODY MINUTES AGO.

The Intro battle, the hyperspace ram/duel scene are all that do it for me in this movie.

 

The villains of the 1970s were always old, cool, calculating types. Old men with few weaknesses to spot. Men that could have been heroes and believe they are on the other side. Those types are just as generic and dull as any other though after decades of them.

What you never saw back then and what many talented new writers are doing in very interesting ways is building bratty villains who seem more like the types who were bullied and chose to become bad instead of rising up from that to become good. These are the columbine villains or the spoiled brat villains. Some recent ones that come to mind:

Malfoy In Harry Potter.
King Joffrey in Game of Thrones.
Ramsay Bolton in Game of Thrones.
Colonel Hanz In Inglorious Basterds
Loki in Thor

These guys don’t physically impose and they make mistakes and seem sort of weak and highly emotional but that also makes them interesting for some.

I can understand how some don’t like Hux because people connect to villains the same way they do heroes. Some work for them more than others. I love Hux specially because of these traits:

He’s wildly ambitious
He’s coniving
He’s arrogant
He’s pompous
He’s committed to his side and believes it’s just.
He wanted so badly to be respected by Snoke and everyone.
Even when he isn’t feeling confident he projects it because he thinks that’s what leaders should do
He’s smarter than many of his critics think but his above traits lead to weakness.

He’s the child of the Empire. I imagine him a little like King Joffrey. He was in some ways born into this and is entitled and childish as a result.

 

But does that make him a competent leader of such a large force and someone whose subordinates would look up to him with respect and devotion in real life?

 

Considering that he played a significant role in the training of them, gives speeches to them, and that the FO is the closest anyone has come by the end of IX to restoring (in their minds) the glory of the past Empire I would have to think that despite his weaknesses there's a certain level of admiration for the gains they ultimately made. I would have to think that part of their training would have been that there would be significant losses but no gains without sacrifice. In their own minds they're the heroes of their own stories.

In some ways Poe and Hux are two sides of the same coin. Poe an arrogant but talented child of the Rebellion who still has some growing up to do. Hux an arrogant but results-driven child of the Empire who also could stand to do the same.

 

1) Huh ? Then what's the purpose of the Cantina, or Cloud city ?

Anyway, i'm starting to digress, back to my point. Before TLJ, Star Wars always found a way to give us a glimpse of the "bigger picture", a rough idea of the state of the galaxy. It always gave us a sense that there is more beyond what you just see.

Spoiler: examples

• ANH : the discussion about the dissolution of the Senate
  
• ESB is also just about 1 ship escaping the Empire, but it showed us other ships escaping beforehand, and mentionned others : we do know there is a bigger fight out there. It also showed us Cloud city, and more importantly, how the Empire treat that kind of colony.

You don't need to spend a lot of time on those : just a few glimpses, and let the power of suggestion and imagination will do the rest

More importantly, this "bigger picture" showed us why the conflict mattered, why the Empire needed to disappear. Not only did TLJ failed to do that, but it did the exact opposite : thanks to Canto Bight and DJ, the only impression TLJ gives you is :
"This war is useless. Nobody cares, and it doesn't matter who wins, it won't change anything".

Spoiler: about my suggestion

Also, you seemed to misunderstand my suggestion, all i'm saying is :
_ visit a planet
_ put riots in the background (and 1-2 lines explaining them)
BOOM ! Suddenly you get the sensation that this conflict is big, and has severe repercussions.

2) Star Wars was never meant to be realistic, and never should be : it was always journey of imagination. If you want more grounded stuff, there are plenty of other franchise more adequate for that.
(nb : i don't mind if Anthologies are more " grounded" : they are meant ot give us something different. But the core Saga should stay true to its nature)

3) You want conflict ? That's what your bad guys are here for !
Star Wars was all about individuals from different background teaming up : a farmboy, a scoundrel and a princess learning to overcome their differences to defeat evil. SW always knew how to emphasis the good side of our protagonists ; even when they have conflicting opinions, they eventually find a way to work things out.

Spoiler

But when a protagonist do screw up as badly as Poe did, committing the worst treacherous crime a soldier can make (unjustified mutiny in time of war while facing the enemy : that's worth an execution on the spot, period), and getting so many people killed as a result ... then he should make amends :

Typically, an act of pure self-sacrifice is required to make up for his faults (or at least an attempt) : Poe should have been the one flying the Raddus into the Supremacy, or trying to take down the "death-star" canon.

But in TLJ, he doesn't even say "Sorry" ???

If i wanted to see a group of deeply flawed individuals (some partially responsible for creating the bad guys) who keep getting people killed because they can't get along, then i have Battlestar Galactica's DVDs at home, thank you. I paid for Star Wars, not that lesser franchise.

 

^ Brilliant!

I have to add that if I want to see characters that are guilty of treason, yet go scot free, then nuBSG is the show. And they were experts in running, too.

However, nuBSG claimed that the Cylons had a plan which we never learned. That's one thing I'm not aware that Lucasfilm ever claimed that for the ST.

 

The twenty-year gap where the Empire solidified their grip on the Galaxy and the the origins of the Rebel Alliance. At the beginning of each trilogy, we’re essentially dumped in the present and expected to catch up.

Honestly, it all seems about as comparable as the lack of info for ANH back in ’77.

It is the Saga (or part of it). Everything that happens in those movies happens because of what the characters in the earlier movies did or failed to do. OT characters play important supporting roles. The villain’s parents are OT characters. The leads story arc builds off of stuff from those movies. It may be passing off the baton from the Skywalker saga to new characters, but it’s part of that saga from the get go.

Since the story is incomplete, I sure can. My point was, though, that it’s unfair to judge the movies in the greater context of the series until we can see the entire picture. Also, we have seen that happen already. The details of how Kylo Ren destroyed Luke's Jedi school and what happened to Rey's parents were not explained in TFA but established in the sequel TLJ.

Okay:

1. "Where is the old Empire?" Out commission, at best. “…the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire…” (TFA, my emphasis). Do we need more explanation that the Empire is no longer a factor? "Ashes" usually means something has been destroyed. We see the wreck of Imperial ships on Jakku. This answer is pretty clearly stated and shown.


2. "What is the New Republic?" That’s not specifically addressed, but I think that the filmmakers (correctly) understood that we didn’t need it spelled out that the Rebel Alliance won the war from the original trilogy and re-formed the Republic.


3. "[What is] Luke's Jedi Order?" “He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything.” (TFA)

4. "Who the Force is Snoke?" Okay, that’s not addressed, but I’m not sure that’s important for the story, esp. since TLJ confirms that Kylo Ren is the main antagonist.

5. "How did he corrupt Luke's Jedi Order and destroy it?" "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything." (TFA) “It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side.” (TFA) The exacts of how and when Kylo did it were shown in TLJ.

6. "How did he rise?" See answer number 4.

7. "Where did the First Order raise such a large force?" That was honestly never a question that bothered me.

8. "How is the rest of the galaxy effected by all this?" "The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys the merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy." (TLJ) TFA shows them slaughtering a village and destroying an entire populated system. Rose explains how her homeworld was conquered by the First Order in TLJ. We see in the Canto Bight scenes how certain parties profit off the war.

Maybe. On the other hand, the original movie was a very simple story told with great characters, while the prequels had a good story but weaker characters.

So far, Rey’s story arc has been about her finding her place in the world and choosing who she’s going to be. Also, she’s not a Skywalker, so there’s no further exposition needed on either of those two points.

IMHO, the questions you want answered are not that important to the movies. The tie-ins do address them if you want more close on them.

Fair enough if he thinks so.

How'd they do that?

 

Hux IS a dastardly villain. There's a reason Snoke calls him a "rabid cur." He was raised a zealot. He is steeped in propaganda. The Imperial officers were not. Many of them were professional officers with no particular political alignment to the Empire. SO yeah, Hux does feel different from those officers because he IS different.

 

And the immaturity and zealotry is a key feature. Yeah, I would maybe tone down the humour in places, but I do like those factors, and the friction that provides with some of the older officers who served under the Empire. It helps the FO will like an evolution and yet slightly different.

 

1) TFA already did a good job of showing how the FO treat the average people with the opening of the villagers being massacred and an entire system being destroyed. This is the aftermath of those first strikes and the opposition's attempt to squash out the last of the Republic and any ally that remains.

2) I agree with this and it's why I grow tired of all of the arguments around force power and fight strategies. You can't have it both ways. I accept it largely as fantasy and with that comes some tremendous suspension of disbelief.

3) This is where I disagree most. There are huge generational differences at work here on both sides of the war. It's the same reason Canady is so angry with his young crew. It's been 30 years. Any person in their 50s today working with a millennial can spot huge generational differences and has probably complained to their friends or spouse about those key differences. Look at how the British Royal Family conducted itself in the public from the 1970s through the 1980s to present day. The saga shows a clear decline of formality. The PT almost feels like Rome or the Vatican. At its most futuristic it feels like 1950s America right down to the diner. Then 20 years later all of that formality seems pointless and hard to believe and silly to the next generation and it's been a slide down ever since. We're now 30 years past that and the old heroes seem like myths to this generation. The worldview, values and humor of the next generation who grew up following the war are all evolving just as they have on Earth the past 40 years.

Leia clearly tried to foster more of a collaborative leadership style, which again is modern, and in particular treats Poe almost more like a son than a typical Commander, so when she's out of commission he feels he's acting on her behalf how she would act. This guy is one of the most popular heroes of their entire movement. He's like JFK Jr meets Luke Skywalker's piloting ability. All the other young members seem willing to go to bat for, die for, and lie for him. He's the kind of guy that COULD stage a mutiny because of those qualities if he felt it was just and he did. This saga shows the temptation by the easy path/dark side path beyond just the Force heroes. Some take it and some don't. Han was tempted in the OT and didn't and returned to help the Rebellion. Rogue One wisely showed the infighting and, well, rebellion that a Rebellion/Resistance movement would have and TLJ continues that course correction by spending more time with the Resistance members and their goals and their concerns and weaknesses. Their lack of formality and independent thinking is simultaneously their biggest strength and it's also being shown as something that can be a weakness. The Resistance here is made up of the last 400 or so beings committed to it. That's it. They're desperate for survival. Once Leia goes down this is their lives on the line and the war on the line and somebody like Poe as been in this his whole life. The Rebellion/Resistance showcase the passionate aspects of democracy where not everyone agrees and some desperately will do anything they can for their desire to become the law of the land. The Empire/FO are the fascist rule where only the very top decide everything and everyone else is but a cog in the machine. Playing up those contrasts enriches Star Wars and the themes; it doesn't cheapen it.

 

As I've said before, it would be fine with that dastardly portrayal (I'm merely explaining why Jerjerrod would be seen as "3-dimensional") had Snoke not fall into the joke side of the First Order. Getting killed while arrogantly proclaiming that he's invincible got rid of the only person who can invoke Knight of Cerebus. And Kylo Ren's immaturity has yet to convince me that I should be afraid of him.

 

Yes. I mean I just listened to the soundtrack and felt the emotions of Star Wars again. But I concur. Take out Mark, Carrie, Harrison, the original cast, and it doesn't feel like Star Wars, let alone continue from the previous 6 films. If only the connected them together. It almost ruins the whole concept of the Emperor if a random bad guy just appeared, negating the happy feeling at the end of ROTJ.

I enjoy it, but it isn't what we could have had. I'm not talking about any EU stuff. I'm talking about if they just did George Lucas' vision (aka the Star Wars saga of 6 wonderfully written and successful films that preceded the ST)

Yes I think the overall story arc of the PT was there. George Lucas created Star Wars and was a human of vision. The ST writers should pay for "their lack of vision!" (quoting ROTJ). Perhaps the PT could have been presented/directed differently in terms of dialogue yes, but my word the soundtrack, that space battle above Coruscant, I still remember going to see the movie after the end of my exams, and that scene alone was EPIC! I also feel that because certain critics and the loud minority objected to tying the whole saga together (e.g. Order 66 the way the movies told it and not that chip cartoon change etc) we got the ST. 30 years later, and somehow we are using the same technology that existed in the OT, but they claim it's much bigger (compensating perhaps?) to try to outdo the OT.

Yes, it's just that it's not even the safe route. It's not a story at all. They're just telling the same story, which doesn't make any sense. This is meant to be a saga and the next part of the saga. Yet we have no link to the OT, or PT. It doesn't flow. Watch the 6 films, or even just ROTJ and does this make any sense? No exposition of the present state of galactic affairs either. Random villain who came from nowhere quite literally (they could have gone down the Plageuis route to tie everything together) and who has now been dispatched too. It feels like George Lucas' story arc and storytelling is severely missed from the ST.

Yes I feel like they are using the CGI in the wrong places (e.g. Rathars) versus new interesting aliens in the set piece locales. I also think maybe CGI Yoda would have been better in this film. I was happy Yoda came back at least. Not entirely sure why they aren't bridging the gap between Episode VI and Episode VII through Batman Begins style flashbacks (should have happened in TFA tbh). Surely the Force ghosts would assist the New Jedi training also?

Again this. They seem so distracted with trying to be the original movies, they forget that this is meant to continue the great epic story and saga. They should be moving FORWARD correct. I feel like they have now spent 2 precious movies (and the original cast) not telling any story, but to just fit ingredients in that they think make Star Wars.

What will make the film truly great is a story arc and CONNECTING it to the past by making the story flow. What makes a Star Wars film is the story and telling it well as Lucas did.

I think they really really needed to use more flashbacks to actually make these films feel like part of the epic saga. Episode VII needed to connect to the other 6 films. Bridge the Episode 6 to 7 gap. Flashbacks like in Batman Begins in TFA would have worked wonders and set up the subsequent two films well. At least they had to make up for that major error in TLJ. Maybe 25 minutes of flashbacks and dialogue (like Obi Wan telling Luke a story) interspersed throughout the 4+ hours of the TFA and TLJ would have made these films more complete.

The Force is with you my friend! This is brilliant. Yes,

1. No sense of Galactic conflict. This isn't so much Star Wars as a small family feud in a small town out in the plains. The fact that no one answered the call for help speaks volumes. Not to mention we have no explanation of where the Empire went, what the New Republic is (we randomly see some planet destroyed, having been given no connection to it unlike Alderaan, Naboo, Coruscant, the Jedi during Order 66 etc).

2. Yes, I feel like there wasn't that Star Wars flair that we have had in the OT and the PT. It feels too bland, not to mention way too black and white. One thing Rogue One captured right, whilst also telling a story, was the grey areas in both the Empire and the Alliance. That neither was purely good or evil. The ST just gives us the First Order, which is so obviously bad, that no one could support it. And the Resistance (what a ridiculous name) is pure virtue. Saying the First Order is the Empire, is an insult to the Empire.

3. There is no story, nor expositional link to the whole saga. Watching the films in order... when you hit 7, whilst it's entertaining, it makes no sense.

4. The focus on the Skywalkers, given this is a Saga about their family, is muddled.

5. Morality - I concur. That Windu scene was epic and made the audience think. ROTS is a perfect example of highlighting those themes.

6. Yes I feel like the character construction is the wrong way round here. They make them like Superman landing on Earth and being made invulnerable. "THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!" What made the OT, PT cast wonderful was how they fit into a Story bigger than all of us. Watching them grow, succeed... or fall.

HOW do we know that? We are not given any explanation of what you just said ON SCREEN. Are we even told of the planet that is destroyed beforehand? We are given no emotional connection to it unlike Alderaan or the Jedi Order in the PT.

We do NOT know the Empire was wiped out. Is that hinted at in the films in any way? We don't know where it is.

Who is the New Republic and First Order? On Screen nothing is shown via flashback or otherwise.

Precisely. We could have been shown by flashback or discussion how the Empire tried to hold on (maybe searching for the true heir to lead it, Luke Skywalker), its collapse and the rise of the New (Corrupt) Republic. Given some sense of the Galactic state of affairs since the Empire was the legitimate government back in its day. Exposition. And who the First Order was and how it rose. I also don't get how big they are and how they are seemingly in control with no one to stop them (be it Republic, Jedi, or Imperial).

Who Snoke is, a random bad dark sider appearing after the Emperor is gone, makes no sense unless it is explained.

Tying this in to the OT or PT is also a nightmare, since nothing is presented to us. Watching this as one complete saga is thus difficult. Like they are just writing this as they go along and just realised they used 2 out of 3 films not progressing the story, nor linking it to what happened before it. After all this is meant to CONTINUE the saga from Episode VI?

Yes in the OT, we know of Alderaan and are given a connection to feel the gravitas of its destruction. We also know of the Death Star rather than it being randomly thrown in to us. In the PT, we know of the Jedi as they are wiped out by Order 66 in an emotional scene. In the ST, we know not of the Republic, nor of the world that is destroyed. Starkiller Base is as random as the First Order itself. No connection to a random planet that is not mentioned until after its destruction. That they were attempting to just reset everything to an OT state becomes obvious.

I agree, I don't understand how the First Order came to be , or how it is now the de facto big power in the entire GALAXY. Where is the Empire, the Republic etc? What happened? No exposition via flashback or explanation is given at all. Who in the name of the Force is Snoke? So random. The story should have been FO (maybe left over dark sider Plageuis) versus Jedi yes.

Yes there is no story and they don't reflect or connect on the 6 stories that preceded them.

I thought the director who did Rogue One did that well though. But the main saga films don't feel like part of the saga at all at the moment and given we're 2 films down out of 3, doesn't feel good. You'll need a 4.5 hour film with flashbacks to make up for this now in Episode IX. But they seem too proud to accept their mistake.

THIS. That was what I thought during his spiteful of speech during TFA. This wasn't a Palpatine Declaration of Empire speech. This wasn't a Luke saying I'm a Jedi speech. It was just an awfully forced speech that was so random in a film with no exposition on the galactic state of affairs in the present, nor on what happened in between Episode VI and VII. And we are 2 films down out of 3! No story arc unlike with George Lucas's whole saga.

I agree, looks like no one cares, since no one came to help the loathsome Resistance. Frankly it isn't even clear if the First Order is in control of the galaxy. They seem pathetically small versus the Empire save for a few showpiece ships. What I wouldn't give to see the Imperial Fleet arrive searching for Skywalker to lead them as Vader's heir and wiping out both the First Order and the Resistance so that we shall have "peace".

Rey being like Superman and invulnerable thanks to Earth's sun is not particularly impressive. It was irritating when she beat Luke too. Unless she turns out to be his hidden daughter. But it looks like they have no idea what they are writing or any more of an idea of what the story is than we do. Mark Hamil expressed his worries and I feel so sad seeing his interviews on this all.

 

Exactly.

Hux is an over the top Saturday morning cartoon and it is why he is not an effective villain IMO. What makes Krennic for example effective is for the same reason that made the Nazis so detestable. It is the casual lack of regard to life. Alot of Nazis didn't outright "hate" Jews per se. But killing Jews was just apart of the job and not that big of a deal. It is a similar concept that we really see with Krennic. He isn't hellbent on terrorizing people's lives, but he sees the Death Star as a way to move up the Imperial hierarchy. If a few billion beings have to die, then so be it.

It is a take on evil that the audience can find believable and realistic, because it happens all the time in real life. You don't get this with Hux, who feels like a character playing a character within the film if that makes any sense.

 

See, I wouldn’t have minded an inverse of the OT, whereby this time it is the Republic who are ultimately usurped over a three film structure by a rising dark insurgency. In fact, that would be very contemporary and maybe it is actually what they are aiming for. But, they have gone about it the wrong way in my mind and are using iconic imagery and characters from the OT in their wrong context. That confuses the audience.

 

Isn't that the prequels in a nutshell

 

I suppose.

 

It's a matter of opinion of course. I think Ren's viciousness after he killed Snoke and Rey left is pretty awesome. I love him. But then I enjoyed the sarcastic humor. My wife says sarcasm is my first language, and she has a point, so I may embrace sarcastic character more than most. I loved Hux in this movie. My favorite bit was him taking his blaster out when he saw Ren on the floor... and then putting it back as Ren came to.

 

I don;t mean to be rude, really, but I am literally baffled that anyone would be confused by the ST.